WVDNR may be doing something right

[SteelerFan]

I think biological - sustainable wildlife management  vs. commercial economics should always be challenged and evaluated. The for-profit hunting "industry" needs to have some type of check and balance...

Heat-seeking, laser guided critter-getter weapons and paraphernalia will always be emerging, and we as sportsman must police ourselves in order to protect and conserve our "heritage". Finding the balance and compromise is the hard part.

This survey shows that, at the least, WV is aware of that.

[WV Ridge Reaper]

WV Ridge Reaper, I understand your point clearly, my grandpa hunts with a rifle, while I don't agree with it I keep my mouth shut as its legal at this point.
Aside from this, we need to hook up and hunt this spring.

For sure!!! I'm in Charelston 6-7 days a week working

You never "opened a can of worms"

I understand your point on the rifles as things can and will happen..Just like if I decide to "reap" a turkey I am taking the risk of being shot with a rifle as well or a turkey load.

I don't feel the need to use a decoy when "reaping"



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[Happy]

I don't believe a can of worms has been open at all. Here is my point. We have seen a decline in the turkey population in most areas. I belive it is a culmination of many factors but one of them is the fact that more people are hunting turkeys and more people are employing very efficient tactics to kill them.  We will soon be faced with a choice. A smaller bag limit or banning certain tactics. I personally am for the latter. We are past the point in hunting for survival. It's for sport pure and simple. I believe that if you are in it for instant success with minimal effort your doing it for the wrong reason. The I am gonna get mine through whatever means possible attitude does not fly with me. Thats my opinion and you are welcome to yours. If it were up to me which thankfully it isn't then we would be saying goodbye to reaping, rifles, tss shot, decoys,trail cameras and blinds. Effort and skill should be rewarded where laziness should not. I would gladly give up a hen decoy for that. Once again that's my opinion and people don't have to agree. There are many fine lines and we can argue them all day long. Bottom line is that hunting should be for sport and it should be challenging. That's the point far to many of the I want success easy and right now generation has never learned.

[Marc]

I gotta' think that turkey populations are falling due to some negative changes in habitat (including improving agricultural methods creating less habitat) and uncooperative weather.

From my understanding, in a healthy population of wildlife, hunting has very little effect on over-all game populations.  On a given piece of property, I do feel that hunting pressure can certainly have a negative effect on much more localized populations...

The benefit of making it "easier" to kill game is that it generates more revenue (which should in theory provide for better habitat management).  I have been told over and over again, that the reason that rotating-wing duck decoys have remained legal primarily due to increased license sales and lobbying from the companies that financial benefit from these decoys...  Long-term, I feel both the waterfowl and the hunters lose out with this...

For me, calling a bird in, is probably the single most enjoyable aspect of the activity.  For most of us on this board, turkey hunting is about the hunting...  For most people who purchase a license harvesting a bird is the single most important aspect of the activity.

We live in a society that expects instantaneous success and results (entitled if you will).  A good percentage of people purchasing licenses feel entitled to kill game...  The means being far less important than the results.

So there is always this line between staying true to the sport, or making it appealing to the masses.  Too much regulation and a good percentage of people will lose interest (and we lose the revenue of license sales and the means or incentive to maintain habitat)...   Too little regulation and we lose the hunt in turkey hunting...  (Not to mention a declining turkey population due to over-hunting or over-success while hunting).

Personally, I will oppose (and have opposed) both means to take game, and regulation in taking game.  (I adamantly opposed spinning-wing decoys for waterfowl hunting and I also opposed regulations preventing the use of dogs for hunting bears).  We must be the stewards and voice of our own sport...  Hunting ethically and being proactive in habitat management will certainly give us a louder voice to do so...

[wvmntnhick]

Marc, I believe you're hitting the nail on the head with the habitat situation. The club I belong to is a prime example. It's owned by a timber company and they clear cut sections quite often. This reduces the number of roost trees and turkeys aren't going to nest in the open, barren ground left behind for a few years afterwards. Where I currently live, we see turkeys quite often but their spring harvest is generally lower than the surrounding counties. I believe this has more to do with the fact that all of the land is being bought up for the purpose of development or agricultural purposes. Many nests are destroyed every spring by the very farmers that allow me to hunt the farms. The machinery they use is far more efficient at killing game than I'll ever be. Hard to begrudge them that though as it's how they make a living. One farmer in particular is just now getting back into hunting. He didn't get to go this year due to some health issues but I've stopped and talked to him several times. After a few discussion he and I had earlier, he decided to wait a couple extra weeks to make hay so the turkeys would have a better chance to hatch before the machines hit the field. I'm curious to see if it helped the numbers here. He said he didn't run over near as many nests this year and there seemed to be more birds here this year than last so I'm curious as to how things play out this fall and next spring.

[wvmntnhick]

If it were up to me which thankfully it isn't then we would be saying goodbye to reaping, rifles, tss shot, decoys,trail cameras and blinds.

I could get behind a few of these but there are a couple that I'd have to take a hard pass on. It would be hard to get rid of blinds for turkey hunting without also effecting deer hunters. Goes back to the "what's good for the goose is good for the gander" idea. Some land is nearly impossible to deer hunt without a blind as there are no good trees to place a stand nor is there proper concealment. I don't find sitting in a blind to be any "lazier" than sitting in a stand. Actually, I've been busted (by deer as I don't use a blind for turkeys and don't plan to) more often in a blind than in a tree. By getting rid of TSS, all tungsten based shot would have to go. If I'm not mistaken, this would eliminate Hevishot as well as the federal heavyweight. The problem therein lies that when lead shot is banned in places (and eventually nationwide) you're going to run out of options. I'm not cracking on you in any fashion as you and I have had these discussions at length on numerous occasions but by eliminating some of these things I believe it sets us up for future issues. Once they start to micro manage the slope can get slippery in a hurry.

[Happy]

My problem with tss is the ability to reach "way out there" with cetain setups. I have no problem with the .410 -28 gauge crowd making an effective turkey gun. However I have more respect for a guy using a 22 hornet Over a guy with 2.5 ounces of #9 tss in a 12 guage cause at least he is honest about it. Heck longbeards are capable of reaching out further than I believe is sporting.  If we were overrun with turkeys then it wouldn't be a problem. Open regs up and bring it under control. Since that isn't the case then choking down on the success ratio should be in order. That and heftier penalties for poaching. I believe that is a huge issue in my neck of Wv. To many trigger happy idiots who have no willpower shoot many turkeys while squirrels hunting and deer hunting. The older I get the less tolerant I am of such stupidity. If someone can't control their trigger finger then they should stay out of the woods period. Our club has a huge issue with that and it infuriates me.

[Marc]

My problem with TSS is the ability to reach "way out there" with certain setups. I have no problem with the .410 -28 gauge crowd making an effective turkey gun. However I have more respect for a guy using a 22 hornet over a guy with 2.5 ounces of #9 TSS in a 12 gauge cause at least he is honest about it. Heck longbeards are capable of reaching out further than I believe is sporting.  If we were overrun with turkeys then it wouldn't be a problem. Open regs up and bring it under control. Since that isn't the case then choking down on the success ratio should be in order. That and heftier penalties for poaching. I believe that is a huge issue in my neck of Wv. To many trigger happy idiots who have no willpower shoot many turkeys while squirrels hunting and deer hunting. The older I get the less tolerant I am of such stupidity. If someone can't control their trigger finger then they should stay out of the woods period. Our club has a huge issue with that and it infuriates me.

Good post Happy...

Not sure how I feel about the use of certain types of pellets...  I currently use Hevi-shot, cause it patterns better and has more energy and better penetration.  I prefer a load/choke combination capable of making an ethical kill further than I need, as I have admittedly made errors in range judgment.  But do we really need loads capable of killing game at 100 yards???

I will get bashed (I'm sure) for this, but I would rather see regulations in shotgun optics...  I think those optics give a sense of confidence (many times false, many times not), and combined with extra super tight chokes, and small pellets lethal to 70 yards, some degree of a very real unfair advantage.  I know that with even hevi-shot and a tighter choke, that my gun will be far more capable than I am shooting (without optics).

Even at 40 yards, it simply is not that difficult to hit a turkey in the head with modern loads and chokes available with open sights or a shotgun bead.  Good optics with a tight choke, surely increase the range on a shotgun far more than was possible 20 years ago.  That being said, optics are legal, and I will very likely start my own children off using some sort of optic system under my direction.

As for shooting incidental game, I am not quite sure what you are getting at? I have killed a couple of fall turkeys (during season) while quail hunting...  I have often killed dove and quail on the same hunt (although I was targeting only one of them)...

Now, as for incidentally shooting game out of season, I have made no attempt to hide the fact that I would turn in the members of my own duck club for purposely doing such...  Then again, so would most of the owner/members.  An accident is a different story, as most of us have made them.  If someone has a propensity towards "accidents" likely a discussion would be in order before calling in law enforcement.

[Happy]

I am a hevi shot guy myself. However I have not pursued making it a long range shotgun. I can kill with certainty at 40  and a little fudge factor for yardage estimation errors. The incidentals are out of season game taken. I have no problem with taking game within season if presented with the opportunity. There are a ton of deer and turkey taken out of season or with rifles during bow season where  I hunt. It is childish, ridiculous and inexcusable. I would love to see some serious penalties for that crap.

[wvmntnhick]

He's referring to the turkeys shot during squirrel season when the fall season isn't open yet. Our squirrel season opens in September and turkeys will start to disappear about that time.

In my younger days, I'll admit I made some poor decisions. As I've aged, and the dynamics of things have changed, my attitude about things has also changed. My point simply being, outlaws will be outlaws. Poachers will be poachers. Banning this and saying we can't use that won't change anything. If someone is willing to do it now, they'll continue to do it later. They'll just find a better way to hide it. Heck, before WV legalized crossbows, anyone could hunt with them. Just needed to get someone to sign a doctors note and that wasn't difficult at all. Again, I'm not trying to argue in any fashion. I'm just simply stating that things need to be looked at from a perspective other than getting rid of certain devices.

[wvmntnhick]

I am a hevi shot guy myself. However I have not pursued making it a long range shotgun. I can kill with certainty at 40  and a little fudge factor for yardage estimation errors. The incidentals are out of season game taken. I have no problem with taking game within season if presented with the opportunity. There are a ton of deer and turkey taken out of season or with rifles during bow season where  I hunt. It is childish, ridiculous and inexcusable. I would love to see some serious penalties for that crap.

Well, as usual, you beat me to it. Thanks for making the beginning of my post look redundant now. 

[WV Ridge Reaper]

I am a hevi shot guy myself. However I have not pursued making it a long range shotgun. I can kill with certainty at 40  and a little fudge factor for yardage estimation errors. The incidentals are out of season game taken. I have no problem with taking game within season if presented with the opportunity. There are a ton of deer and turkey taken out of season or with rifles during bow season where  I hunt. It is childish, ridiculous and inexcusable. I would love to see some serious penalties for that crap.

Have to ask if you shoot Hevi shot why am I such a unethical/bad hunter for using

I just like the challenge with tss and tight patterns at 5 yards when I pull a the mohican sneak and peak


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[Marc]

That's your opinion, and we all know about opinions!

Opinions are like A$$holes, we all got one, and the all stink!

As hunters, our opinions are likely far more informed than non-hunters (certainly more than anti-hunters)...  I believe there is some obligation on my part to voice my informed opinion, rather than have regulations which are made arbitrarily  or emotionally by politically motivated anti-hunting groups, or by non-hunting politicians, or by lobbying groups for financial benefit.

Just cause it is legal does not make it right...  And just cause regulations exist, does not mean that they exist for the right reasons.

I for one feel that as an informed, educated, and intelligent (up for debate if you ask my wife) outdoorsman, that if we as the hunting community call for logical and ethical regulation, our voices will be far louder when we protest illogical and largely emotionally based regulations (which hurt hunting and the hunting community).

[Happy]

The reason I shot hevi shot is simple. I shot one turkey at 43 yards( estimation error and one turkey at 40 yards even. Yes I ranged him with a rangefinder before the shot. Both where with #6 federal lead loads. Maybe I pulled the shots a little I don't know. What I do know is they were not killed cleanly with the first shot. Switched to hevi shot 5's and after a few birds I realized it was way overkill for the ranges I shoot. Switched to 6's and haven't had a problem since. I have no doubt that there are a few using tss and keeping it a close range game. But I bet the majority aren't. That's purely my opinion of course. Both winchester and hevishot have done hunting a disservice promoting the ranges that they do.

[Marc]

Have to ask if you shoot Hevi shot why am I such a unethical/bad hunter for using

I just like the challenge with tss and tight patterns at 5 yards when I pull a the mohican sneak and peak

Both winchester and hevishot have done hunting a disservice promoting the ranges that they do.

Personally, I am with Happy on this one...

It is not so much the shot itself (which if reasonably priced and accessible I would use myself), it is the promotion of the capability of long-range shooting with such.

Yeah, given the right choke and load, and using the correct optics, some of this stuff is likely capable of taking birds consistently at very long ranges...  Problem is, most hunters are not capable of using these loads to their full potential (myself included).

The fact that it is being promoted as a "long-range" load encourages many hunters to shoot at game at unreasonable distances...  Wounding more game, and taking to some degree the "hunting" aspect out of hunting.

It is legal, and I myself prefer to have the most effective load possible for hunting game at ethical ranges, so I while I would not condemn someone for using such loads, I am NOT sure it is to the benefit of turkeys or turkey hunting to have these loads available...  And I feel quite strongly that the ammunition companies promoting these "long-range" loads do NOT have the best interests of turkeys or turkey hunting in mind...