Eastern vs. Rio's

[MShillhunter]

A friend of mine and I were talking about which birds typically grow bigger Spurs. Neither of us have hunted anything but easterns and have each heard different things about Rios. I have a trip planned to Texas at the end of April though. 

Wanted to see what the Old Gobbler brain trust had to say about it.

[Gamblinman]

Just like deer..depend on the genetics, food, and area.


Gman

[MShillhunter]

Gotcha. I have always been told the terrain plays a major factor.

Shows what I know

[fallhnt]

Eastern due to habitat

[stinkpickle]

+1 for local genetics

[Marc]

I'd say its mostly genetics, like maybe 95%

I just don't buy this rocky terrain thing wearing a spur down. Their toenails are in contact with the rocky terrain constantly. Are the toenails of rocky terrain turkeys a lot shorter? I never really compared them, but you would think there should a huge difference in toe nail length if a spur that is farther up on the leg gets worn down from minimal contact with rocks.

I have hunted Merriam's in several states and all in similar Ponderosa Pine habitat. Some have longer and sharper spurs on average and some have short dull spurs. The terrain is pretty much the same.

I hunt Rios in an area where 1 1/4 to 1 7/16 spurs are not that unusual. A good bird for sure, but I have seen quite a few spurs like that come out of the area.

I have hunted Wis for over 10 years and never seen a spur over 1 1/4. I know 2 guys that have hunted turkeys in Wis since the DNR started a season and they have seen maybe only 1 or 2 spurs spurs over 1 1/4.

Birds are being transplanted and moved all the time across the country from my understanding...

The fact that the spurs are short and "dull" would indicate wear to me.  It is my understanding that California birds have a fairly wide range of genetic input, yet the spurs are rather short here in general with 1 1/4" being considered pretty long. 

Bird I killed last weekend had 1 1/4" spur on one side, and a 1" chipped spur on the other.  I would guess that the chip would have worn to a dull end given a few weeks/months.

I have killed a number of birds with chipped spurs, and would assume it is from the rocky terrain we have here...  Watching the birds fight and get into those rocks, I would assume that the spurs are getting chipped and broken mostly during spring breeding.

I would certainly agree that genetics plays the largest role, but would argue that terrain is a limiting factor as well.

[Marc]

So how are the toenails on your birds.

I am not just dismissing you but really wondering about this. If rocky terrain wears down spurs, it surely must affect toenails...no? Spurs and toenails are made of a similar substance, keratin if I remember right.

Honestly, I have never measured the toenails (it has never occurred to me); I would not even know what to measure them against? 

But I would also assume that nails grow at a far faster rate, and would be worn at a faster anywhere in the country.  (Birds walk across hard flatter surfaces all the time which would wear nails but not spurs, whereas rocky country will wear spurs as well as nails).

[Dr Juice]

Just like deer..depend on the genetics, food, and area.


Gman

Concur!

[MK M GOBL]

Even within each strain of bird, like some have said genetics, food and terrain have a big part in spur length, beyond hunting pressure. Last time I looked at birds from the U.S. Easterns held every record for longest spurs (3 Easterns, 1 Merriams, 1 Osceola) , longest beard and heaviest weight. Easterns are also #1 Typical and #1 Non Typical overall score.

MK M GOBL

[MK M GOBL]

I have hunted Wis for over 10 years and never seen a spur over 1 1/4. I know 2 guys that have hunted turkeys in Wis since the DNR started a season and they have seen maybe only 1 or 2 spurs spurs over 1 1/4.

I have more than 20 reasons to disagree with this... The shortest spur is over 1 1/4" and the longest is over 1 1/2" and all are Wisconsin birds!

Even look at NWTF Records and there are over 100 entries of spurs over 1 1/4" and those are only the ones that have been registered...

MK M GOBL

[stinkpickle]

Part of the reason I have a hard time with the rocks wearing on the spurs is the infrequency that a spur would come in a rock. I just don't think it happens that often.

However I was thinking. The other day I had a bunch of jakes in my decoys for about an hour. Some of them "mated with the ground" quite a few times. When a turkey does that they squat towards the ground and the scale part of the leg is against or very close to the ground. The spur could rub on the ground when they do that.

But then again...where I hunt Rios there is a lot of sandy/gravely/rocky river beds that the turkeys hang out on a lot, But the Rio spur are sharper than the Merriam's spurs where the soil seems less rocky or gravely to me.

Yeah, I don't buy into the idea that rocky terrain wears down spurs, either.  Maybe if the spurs are chipped up, but not when they look polished smooth.

[GobbleNut]

Although I agree that there are specific instances where spurs are impacted by terrain, there is little doubt in my mind that genetics is the predominate culprit in spur development. 

I believe Marc's comment regarding turkey transplants is valid, as well.  The answer regarding that, however, is probably related to the role DNA, and  dominate and recessive genes, play in determining physical characteristics within transplanted populations of turkeys that are established by a relatively few individual turkeys.  Most, if not all, transplanted birds come from individual flocks of turkeys, many of which are probably related.  The dominate characteristics found in the genetics of those birds will likely greatly influence the characteristics/genetics of the overall turkey population, established from a transplant, as it expands.

Of course, those traits will be less magnified in transplanted populations that receive birds from multiple sources.

[MK M GOBL]

Part of the reason I have a hard time with the rocks wearing on the spurs is the infrequency that a spur would come in a rock. I just don't think it happens that often.

However I was thinking. The other day I had a bunch of jakes in my decoys for about an hour. Some of them "mated with the ground" quite a few times. When a turkey does that they squat towards the ground and the scale part of the leg is against or very close to the ground. The spur could rub on the ground when they do that.

But then again...where I hunt Rios there is a lot of sandy/gravely/rocky river beds that the turkeys hang out on a lot, But the Rio spur are sharper than the Merriam's spurs where the soil seems less rocky or gravely to me.

Yeah, I don't buy into the idea that rocky terrain wears down spurs, either.  Maybe if the spurs are chipped up, but not when they look polished smooth.

Rocky terrain and steep hills definitely have an effect on spurs, have  a lot of spurs where the ends are busted. Sharp on one side and not the other...

MK M GOBL

[stinkpickle]

Part of the reason I have a hard time with the rocks wearing on the spurs is the infrequency that a spur would come in a rock. I just don't think it happens that often.

However I was thinking. The other day I had a bunch of jakes in my decoys for about an hour. Some of them "mated with the ground" quite a few times. When a turkey does that they squat towards the ground and the scale part of the leg is against or very close to the ground. The spur could rub on the ground when they do that.

But then again...where I hunt Rios there is a lot of sandy/gravely/rocky river beds that the turkeys hang out on a lot, But the Rio spur are sharper than the Merriam's spurs where the soil seems less rocky or gravely to me.

Yeah, I don't buy into the idea that rocky terrain wears down spurs, either.  Maybe if the spurs are chipped up, but not when they look polished smooth.

Rocky terrain and steep hills definitely have an effect on spurs, have  a lot of spurs where the ends are busted. Sharp on one side and not the other...

MK M GOBL

Exactly...on the busted ones.