Serious HTL shot size question (long post)

[wmahunter]

I have a few questions about turkey shot size:

1 – Does the Federal HW #7 pellet have the necessary "kill power" at 50 yds?

2 – Same question about TSS 9 pellets.

3 – If the answers to the above questions are YES then what possible advantage is there for using a Fed HW larger than 7 or a TSS larger than 9?

My opinion on both questions is YES. Actually I feel that they both pack the needed punch at even greater distance than that (although I am not going to shoot farther).

Seems to me that going to a larger pellet will reduce the pattern density and therefore reduce the effective "clean kill" range. The rule I learned when younger was "pattern stops before penetration" and this was talking about lead shot so it would be even MORE true about HTL shot wouldn't it?

I honestly don't understand why Federal even loads HW in 4's and 5's or why anyone would pay the cost and hunt with them if the 7's pack all the punch needed AND will shoot a much denser pattern. Same goes for TSS 8's or larger.

If you hunt with these larger HTL sizes, what's your reason? Am I seeing this completely wrong?

I know some say the larger shot size will do more damage but seems to me that any hole through the head or spine is gonna be fatal no matter whether it is a 4 or a 9 size hole.
As an analogy;  even if it were legal, would the lead shooters use 00 buck rather than #5's (even though the 00 would do more damage). Of course not.  They use the smaller shot because it meets two criteria: it has the energy to cleanly kill while also giving a clean killing pattern at the range they are willing to shoot.

Seems that the same should go for HTL shooters. Why would anyone not want the most pellets possible in the kill zone as long as those pellets will kill cleanly ?

What got me wondering about this is the fact that last Spring Fed HW 5's seemed to be everywhere while it was hard to get the 7's. Obviously there are plenty of folks buying and shooting the 5's or Fed wouldn't be making them but I just can't understand why there is any demand for them.

It seems to me that people are still applying the old "lead rules" to HTL shells. Think of it this way...IF lead weighed 15 or 18g/cc then we would have ALWAYS been shooting 7's or 9's to kill turkeys and no one would have EVER thought that 4's or 5's were the best for that purpose. It just seems to be hard to throw out the OLD turkey shell logic and move forward to logic that fits the technology that is available now.

Honestly, If you never shoot beyond 30 yds then there is no reason not to shoot lead 6's because you can get a great pattern and still have clean kill energy however that is pretty much the reliable limit for lead 6's (IMO) and every year I have turkeys that only offer me a 40-45 yd shot.

Of course lead 4's and 5's pack more punch than 6's at longer ranges but you are giving up pellet count (range) if you use them so it seems to be a even trade off and in the long run you are still back around the 30yd point for a guaranteed clean kill.

My real question however is why would someone use HTL 5's or 6's? The REAL advantage of spending the extra cash for the HTL shot is only realized if you also go to the smaller shot which then gives you the killing power of larger lead shot along with more range which lead shot doesn't give because of the pattern loss.

Every time I hunt turkeys I only intend to shoot at 30yds or less but I don't always get what I want....especially when turkey hunting....so I shoot TSS 9's 

[BOFF]

Great post and questions, but it would be better to post it in the "reloading" section in my opinion, if you want the specifics.


Simple answer for some states; #7 and smaller shot sizes are illegal to use for turkey.




God Bless,
David B.

[bird]

From personal exprience I have gone back to 6's and away from the 7's because I believe that they "don't" pack the punch necessary for an immediate clean kill.

[dirt road ninja]

A theory i have for the larger shot being more abundant then the smaller shot is most of the major sporting good chains don't have turkey hunters in charge of ammo ordering. The person in charge of stocking their shelves probably doesn't know better.

[GOLD HUNTER]

We are on the cutting edge of technology now days. I like the hevi-shot and the TSS loads and  i did shoot copper #6's back in the day,...........its JUST HARD TO TEACH OLD DOGS NEW TRICKS.

brian

[3" 870 Shell Shucker]

It's hard enough to get people who are used to shooting #4 or #5 Lead to use #6 HTL.  Getting them to use #7 or #7.5 HTL is even harder.  They are more easily won over to Magnum Blend, since it contains some big pellets as well.

None of my local stores stock #7's.  So, I have chosen Magnum Blend over #6 HTL.  I'm stocking up on Magnum Blend, to use when I run out of my 2 Ounce #7 and #6 HTL loads. 

[VAHUNTER]

From personal exprience I have gone back to 6's and away from the 7's because I believe that they "don't" pack the punch necessary for an immediate clean kill.

i agree bird.
i have tested 7's over and over again.sure they will kill birds.but when my back is against the tree i want to know without a doubt that the load of shot that i will be sending him will be MORE than enough to get the job done. that is why i will always use 6's

[stinkpickle]

...its JUST HARD TO TEACH OLD DOGS NEW TRICKS...

This.  The typical consumer will likely buy the same size that he's used to purchasing in lead...that is, if he pays the higher price at all.  The ammo companies and the retailers know this.  We are in the minority.

[wmahunter]

From personal exprience I have gone back to 6's and away from the 7's because I believe that they "don't" pack the punch necessary for an immediate clean kill.

Why do you believe that?  Don't trust the math?  Seems pretty clear to me that they DO pack the punch and offer more pellets for a better pattern too.  I just don't understand.

[stinkpickle]

From personal exprience I have gone back to 6's and away from the 7's because I believe that they "don't" pack the punch necessary for an immediate clean kill.

Why do you believe that?  Don't trust the math?  Seems pretty clear to me that they DO pack the punch and offer more pellets for a better pattern too.  I just don't understand.

After digging out a few low-flying, slow 1090fps H13 #7's from underneath the skin on the OPPOSITE SIDE of a gobbler's breast at 38 non-scientific, non-lasered paces (whatever distance that equates to), I have absolutely no lack of confidence about the amount of punch they carry.   

[wmahunter]

HS is a little different case. While I believe HS 7s will kill to 50 yds, IMO that is the outside of their effective range. HS 6s have excess penetration at that distance if you have the pattern.

I deliberatly didn't mention HS because I know it has a huge following on here but I also question how much improvement it really is over lead when it comes to turkeys....maybe gives you 1 shot size difference...certainly doesn't compare to Fed HW or TSS IMO.

[bird]

From personal exprience I have gone back to 6's and away from the 7's because I believe that they "don't" pack the punch necessary for an immediate clean kill.

Why do you believe that?  Don't trust the math?  Seems pretty clear to me that they DO pack the punch and offer more pellets for a better pattern too.  I just don't understand.

Lets put it this way.... I have a gun that patterns exceptionally well with the HS #7's and after my experience with them last year I just don't believe that they pack the punch of the larger pellets.  And no it was not the shooter as I am very confident in my shot placements.  I myself have rid myself of all HS HTL #7 shells and went to Winchester HD #6's.  Lets just say that "Field Experience" is at times much more valuable that Bench Time or any Math that a person can calculate!

[Neill_Prater]

In my gun/choke combo, the Mag-Blends pattern almost the same as the #7's, so it, to me, doesn't make any sense to shoot all 7's, when I can get as many hits, and part of them are going to be larger pellets. Without testing numerous chokes, I'm guessing there are many people who find that their gun shoots a better pattern with larger shot. I've never shot #4's in all the years I've been turkey hunting, but one of the best turkey hunters I ever knew, shot #4 lead in his gun exclusively, because they patterned the best from shells available in those days. The same principle is true today, except I think more people are willing to buy numerous brands of shells, and different choke constrictions, than they were 20 years ago.

[wmahunter]

Bird,  You gotta shoot what you feel good with. As far as what went wrong, the devil is in the details and I guess you will never know for sure.

2oz6, I feel confident that my TSS 9's will take down a yote.  They pass all the way through every turkey I shoot...head, neck, body, or wherever the pellets hit so I am sure they will penetrate a yote body and skull just fine.  Good job on the yotes BTW

Neill, IMO hevi uses fuzzy math and is not very good at measuring shot size so I deliberately left them out of my OP for that reason.  I don't feel their shot is in the same league as Fed HW and TSS and comparing them is not apples to apples.

[bawana]

I understand HTL and hevi and HW, but what is TSS 9?