It Will Come A Day!

[arkrem870]

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you are seeing the tip of the iceberg now. Just wait

[eggshell]

I am all for state rights and I believe residents do have inherent rights that non residents don't have. As a property owner surrounded by out of state lease holders I get aggravated by the problems it creates. Yes they paid their hard earned money and they are entitled to what they paid for, but that does not give them a license to be arseholes and trespass. Some are very good, but many have the rape and pillage attitude of taking what they want. I also enjoy traveling to hunt new areas and I often strike up friendly relations with locals. I see this from both sides. When it comes to public land, especially National forest, I struggle with controlling access. What most don't consider is almost all states get money from Pittman Robertson and dingle Johnson Acts. Theses are federal excise taxes on all outdoor equipment used for conservation across the United States. This can be up to 75% of a states budget. SD should be careful, by limiting access they could loose some of these funds as they are apportioned by use. We all pay for the Black Hills area. The next thing to consider is the revenue many local business owner get from non residents, it's huge in the Black Hills. I know this because I have friends and family in the area. As usual, there are no simple answers. If it's a problem creating over harvest then address that, period. Giving residence first chance has it's merits, but limiting access to public federal land I don't see. If a landowner allows access or leases your favorite spot then take it up with them. 

[arkrem870]

This has been going on for decades in the big game world.  I put in for draws and preferenc points annually.  Limiting non resident hunters is far from a new idea.

It's just new to turkey hunting. Many of us saw this coming years ago and few heeded the warning. Loose lips sink ships.

[deerhunt1988]

Some folks here really will have their mind blown when they hear about the Wyoming Wilderness rule. You can't hunt big game in a designated wilderness area of Wyoming without having a guide or resident serving as your "guide". You can hike, camp, fish, hunt small game, but no big game hunting. So federal lands that residents can big game hunt but non-residents can't without a major restriction. On top of that, non-residents have to draw a tag that residents can buy over the counter in a lot of units.

Like the poster above mentioned, limiting non-residents is nothing new. I see a lot of talk about "challenging it in courts". Well go do it and let us know how that works out.

[WV Flopper]

Many Western States do limit and control big game hunting. Wyoming has curtailed to the guides association, easy to see.

As stated, money I spend in any state can and does go to SD and many other states as well. These federal tax dollars are distributed across all states. The people of WV are not paying any more money than people from Nevada for WV national forest lands.

Really, this post of mine has and is only an experiment. Just really wanted to see how long it took for people to point the finger at You Tube for the distress.

Looking back at the post, I was more than correct in my wager.

I want to bring some things to light. I am thinking a lot of our turkey hunters/posters today are young, maybe just haven't been able to follow along for the last 40 years...

I have never submitted a video to you tube, I personally don't think I know anyone who has. I do not video my hunts, my choice, I see no issue with it. I do not have an issue with videos of any sort on you tube of the sporting nature if specific locations are not mentioned. A state name is not specific, The "Black Hills" are not specific to me considering they encompass two states and a pile of territory.

You Tube is an easy avenue for an amateur videographer to submit their story. Turkey hunting to be specific has been on main stream TV since I was a teenager! I am 51. The WTF has and is recruiting and promoting turkey hunting like no one else. Now,70% will say WTF is the best ever for the turkey? Some say they are an organization that makes money from the wild turkey. Regardless, the WTF has done a lot for the turkey! States recruit new hunters consistently. I can not and will not comment on TFT, I am ignorant of their agenda.

The point being: The commercialization of turkey hunting started more years ago than half these you tubers have been alive. To place verbally and in public forum blame on You Tube posters directly for this is a clear indication of ignorance or denial. So which is it?

A lot want to forget Knight and Hale, Preston Pittman, Dick Kirby, Will Primose....Where did it start... Way before you tube!

[arkrem870]

Denial and ignorance...... I'm afraid there is a lot of that going on right now. But not with the people you were attempting to put it on. Cheers

[deerhunt1988]

Many Western States do limit and control big game hunting. Wyoming has curtailed to the guides association, easy to see.

As stated, money I spend in any state can and does go to SD and many other states as well. These federal tax dollars are distributed across all states. The people of WV are not paying any more money than people from Nevada for WV national forest lands.

Really, this post of mine has and is only an experiment. Just really wanted to see how long it took for people to point the finger at You Tube for the distress.

Looking back at the post, I was more than correct in my wager.

I want to bring some things to light. I am thinking a lot of our turkey hunters/posters today are young, maybe just haven't been able to follow along for the last 40 years...

I have never submitted a video to you tube, I personally don't think I know anyone who has. I do not video my hunts, my choice, I see no issue with it. I do not have an issue with videos of any sort on you tube of the sporting nature if specific locations are not mentioned. A state name is not specific, The "Black Hills" are not specific to me considering they encompass two states and a pile of territory.

You Tube is an easy avenue for an amateur videographer to submit their story. Turkey hunting to be specific has been on main stream TV since I was a teenager! I am 51. The WTF has and is recruiting and promoting turkey hunting like no one else. Now,70% will say WTF is the best ever for the turkey? Some say they are an organization that makes money from the wild turkey. Regardless, the WTF has done a lot for the turkey! States recruit new hunters consistently. I can not and will not comment on TFT, I am ignorant of their agenda.

The point being: The commercialization of turkey hunting started more years ago than half these you tubers have been alive. To place verbally and in public forum blame on You Tube posters directly for this is a clear indication of ignorance or denial. So which is it?

A lot want to forget Knight and Hale, Preston Pittman, Dick Kirby, Will Primose....Where did it start... Way before you tube!

So its all just happenstance that the popularity of travel turkey hunting began to increase once a few prominent channels began to take off in popularity? Just happenstance that the very areas, even specific WMAs began to see significant increases in pressure after folks aired them to the world to see?  Just happenstance you run across turkey hunters dressed like their heroes with their hero's logo plastered on their back glass? Just happenstance draw odds tanked and non-resident license sales massively exploded following the highlight of certain states?



Also coincidence that a lot of western big game YouTubers/influencers who used to talk down on turkey and never gave a dang about turkey, are now filming turkey hunting themselves and even traveling for turkey? No, not coincidence. They saw dollars to be made pimping out the resource so hopped on the turkey exploitation bandwagon that their eastern counterparts had begun.

To some of us, the Black Hills is pretty specific. Although the Black Hills encompass a ton of land in SD, they don't encompass a whole lot in Wyoming. If this proposal passes, Wyoming Black Hills will just get more pressure. As someone who has hunted the Black Hills in both states multiple times and witnessed the increases in pressure, I fully support the proposal.

The OGs you mentioned who first brought turkey hunting to light did not have near the impact on public lands the YouTube era has brought. We have witnessed a SUBSTANTIAL loss of public land hunting opportunities in a hurry in this current era. If you can't recognize what is happening, you simply haven't gotten around to hunting public land in a lot of states where these issues have reared their ugly head. You haven't looked at the data where you can see it staring you in the eye. Or you are just in denial.

Now is YouTube the sole cause of all this? No. Social media in general is. But YouTube was a major stepping stone.

If you want to get specific about your spending and the Federal monies being spent towards wildlife management in all states..... Nonhunters put more money in the pot than hunters. Think about that for a minute.

[WV Flopper]

So, your blaming the southeastern United States turkey population solely on you tube and social media?

Are Oklahoma and Kansas in that same boat as the southeast?

Are you trying to say millions of dollars of wages and millions of dollars of research are being wasted and the answer is Social Media? Surely your not.

I will agree on one thing. It will come a day! Where we can't hunt anywhere at free will. The limitations being set by states to control Nonresidents will only add more pressure to states that have not set those controls in place yet. You can be assured that Wyoming will happen in the next three years.

And yes, it may just be a coincidence that today so many are traveling. Possibly due to income and age, "ME". Also the limitations of big game hunting and availability of tags for such. Hunters like to hunt, the turkey is the poor man's elk!

All states to Reciprocate!

[deerhunt1988]

So, your blaming the southeastern United States turkey population solely on you tube and social media?

Are Oklahoma and Kansas in that same boat as the southeast?

Are you trying to say millions of dollars of wages and millions of dollars of research are being wasted and the answer is Social Media? Surely your not.

I will agree on one thing. It will come a day! Where we can't hunt anywhere at free will. The limitations being set by states to control Nonresidents will only add more pressure to states that have not set those controls in place yet. You can be assured that Wyoming will happen in the next three years.

And yes, it may just be a coincidence that today so many are traveling. Possibly due to income and age, "ME". Also the limitations of big game hunting and availability of tags for such. Hunters like to hunt, the turkey is the poor man's elk!

All states to Reciprocate!

I never once mentioned the southeast turkey population. lol. Yes, I am blaming social media (even including forums back in the day) and YouTube for loss of public land hunting opportunities.

Oklahoma and Kansas have different environmental and habitat issues than the southeast, but yes, they both dealt with increasing non-resident pressure as well. Kansas implemented a draw to help deal with it. Something many will argue should have done years sooner. We can go ahead and jump a state north to Nebraska and see what they had to do to curtail the issue.

I have no clue what you are talking about in your third statement regarding millions of wasted dollars and social media? I just stated that non-hunters fund way more Pittman Robertson dollars than hunters.

We both can agree on the loss of public land hunting opportunity, just not on the path that has landed us in the current situation. Its never going to get better, and a few are willing to expedite the trajectory for the sake of $$, likes, follows, and subscribes. The American dream, eh?

[eggshell]

If you want to get specific about your spending and the Federal monies being spent towards wildlife management in all states..... Nonhunters put more money in the pot than hunters. Think about that for a minute.

I know what your saying but that is debatable as it has never been quantitatively proven. Many who buy firearms for defense or recreation also are sportsmen/women. They only compare the hunting license sales to general population overall. If you have data I'd like to see it. I managed for a state agency and a very large part of our funding was from the feds. Most states rely on this money and it's true that some things taxed are general recreation items but, they use the outdoors in their use. So I disagree. PT has way more of this then DJ. In DJ almost all the tax is by fishermen and aquatic users. My funding was from DJ. see these links for an explanation

Here's info on PT  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittman%E2%80%93Robertson_Federal_Aid_in_Wildlife_Restoration_Act

https://wildlifeforall.us/resources/pittman-robertson-wildlife-restoration-act-explained/

and DJ

https://wildlifeforall.us/resources/dingell-johnson-sport-fish-restoration-act-explained/

In the end I believe the issue should be protecting the resource and not just a user conflict.

[LB75]

This whole subject has been beat too death repeatedly.

I've never personally met anyone that actually hunts  public land that hasn't seen a negative effect on the resource by the YouTube crowd and their hordes of wannabe followers.

Most often its some guy that hunts a couple days a year in his state and then hunted out of state one time with his buddy, they shot a Turkey and thought it was the best day ever lol.
They are absolutely clueless as to the real world on public lands.

If you hunt 5 days a year spend most of your time buying calls and watching YouTube you don't have any idea what has happened.

Some of us you should know have been hunting out of state for decades before some YouTube clown gave you the idea. I've seen the negative effects.

As for as hot spotting. NOT showing WMA names and specific locations is the brand new thing. For years they went out of their way to let people k ow where they hunted. The damage was/is mostly already done.

[WV Flopper]

Thank you Eggshell for bringing this up. I to am ready to learn because I am ignorant of all of the government funds and how exactly they are distributed.

I do know in WV I pay a National Forest Stamp fee to hunt the lands. Campers, hikers, bicyclist, bird watchers are not required to pay this fee. Only people carrying a gun with intent to kill an animal.

[Ihuntoldschool]

I am all for the residents taking priority  when it comes to the natural resources in their state. Good for them.

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

Nailed it 100%. 

[Ihuntoldschool]

I am all for the residents taking priority  when it comes to the natural resources in their state. Good for them.

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

Nailed it 100%.

[WV Flopper]

Has the thought "Data" ever been explored about what the age groups of all these travelers are?

I am betting that a larger proportion of these travelers are older, 45 and up. Absolutely, younger people travel to hunt, no question! I have spoke with them, and mostly they stand out and are very obvious. But I am betting more older hunters than younger. Way more.

I went to Florida and hunted when I was about 25. It was a bust for me!!! The hunt was centered around a trip to Disney, I hunted a few mornings but had to be back early to go to do the girlfriend thing "Lack of clear priorities on my part". It was a trip of opportunity for me. Even though I was unsuccessful.

Twenty years later I started to travel. I can now find, stash, hide the money to afford to go. I shouldn't say it that way. I have the money to go.

I am 51. Watched knight and Hale, Will Primose and all the other OG's. Now is the time I can do this! I am not on a financial island by my self! There are thousands of guys on this island wanting to go hunting. We are older,we research, we go, we kill. How much of your data is tracking AGE of hunter.

As stated, this is the poor man's elk hunt. But Ten of Thousands of us poor men can now do as we wish financially to go turkey hunting?

So, DH1988 and ArkRem what does your data show on this?