How do you explain the concept of TSS

[runngun]

I handload all of my TSS, every gauge except for the 10 gauge.
One thing that I have realized, your either "Fer it, or aginst it". One thing for certain, me you or nobody going to convince some folks otherwise. The dangest thing is that I would bet most of them ain't never tried it. Going to reject/put down on "new technology" but they ain't using a sharp rock on the end of a stick, or for that matter black powder.
I don't care what you choose to use as long as it WORKS. I am not going to put down on anyone because of the shot they choose. For some reason it is not a two way street.

Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk

[Bottomland OG]

I have always been a lead guy. I loved the Winchester extended range and would still shoot them if they still made it. I'm not debating but really trying to understand more about from all you guys that shoot tss and maybe what I'm doing wrong. I shot tss for the last 2 years and 1 out of 8 birds it killed dead right there, the rest took off running for 30 or 40 yards and just fell over. I've never had that problem with lead. I have switched back to lead because of that. Has anyone else had this problem. The way it looks on paper it seems it would be devastating.

[g8rvet]

The lethality of TSS is not really due to it's greater density.  It is due to the fact that it's greater density allows the pellets to maintain enough downrange energy to penetrate and kill a gobbler in the vital areas.  Newton's First - an object in motion tends to remain in motion and Newton's Second - Force = mass x acceleration. 

The density of lead is fine and dandy to kill a gobbler very dead.  The real difference is what range does the pattern break down vs lethality of the pellet.  The #9 TSS is NOT more deadly than the #5 lead, the greater number of pellets allow an effective killing pattern at better ranges. 

My favorite example is real world Karamojo Bell - while other were hunting elephants with hand cannons (2-4 gauge Muzzleloaders, 577 Express), he was killing by the score with a 303 Enfield.  But he did so with proper bullet placement in the brain due to his knowledge and skill.  TSS due to it's superior patterning because of the smaller pellet size lets you have better odds of multiple smaller killing pellets than fewer larger killing pellets (of say, lead #5). 

I have never hunted with TSS except in a 410.  I use Federal Heavyweight in 20.  I used lead or the old Remington Hevi Shot in 12.

[dublelung]

I have always been a lead guy. I loved the Winchester extended range and would still shoot them if they still made it. I'm not debating but really trying to understand more about from all you guys that shoot tss and maybe what I'm doing wrong. I shot tss for the last 2 years and 1 out of 8 birds it killed dead right there, the rest took off running for 30 or 40 yards and just fell over. I've never had that problem with lead. I have switched back to lead because of that. Has anyone else had this problem. The way it looks on paper it seems it would be devastating.

If 7 out of 8 gobblers took off running you're not putting the shot where it should go or shooting way too far.

[Number17]

The lethality of TSS is not really due to it's greater density.  It is due to the fact that it's greater density allows the pellets to maintain enough downrange energy to penetrate and kill a gobbler in the vital areas.  Newton's First - an object in motion tends to remain in motion and Newton's Second - Force = mass x acceleration. 

It is about density. Density, hardness of the shot and 2.5X less surface area compared to #5 lead. Density sitting on the table means nothing, but density put into motion is where you'll see results.

Looking at Newton's 1st law of inertia, the #5 lead wins by a landslide because of the increased mass (minimal air resistance difference)
Looking at Newton's 2nd law, again the #5 lead wins because it has more than double the mass with the same acceleration or more.

Lead 5s hit with twice the amount of energy, but TSS 9s are able to penetrate just as well because of hardness and a lower coefficient of friction on the target.

[Ihuntoldschool]

Basically TSS allows more pellets to hit but takes more hits to kill.

Lead allows for less pellets to hit but takes far fewer hits to kill.

Big thing is # of pellets.
Golf ball/ ping pong ball poor analogy.

[Bottomland OG]

I have always been a lead guy. I loved the Winchester extended range and would still shoot them if they still made it. I'm not debating but really trying to understand more about from all you guys that shoot tss and maybe what I'm doing wrong. I shot tss for the last 2 years and 1 out of 8 birds it killed dead right there, the rest took off running for 30 or 40 yards and just fell over. I've never had that problem with lead. I have switched back to lead because of that. Has anyone else had this problem. The way it looks on paper it seems it would be devastating.

If 7 out of 8 gobblers took off running you're not putting the shot where it should go or shooting way too far.

They definitely wasn't to far. But I'm not doubting you at all on my part. That's what puzzled me. I'm not a betting man, if I were though I'd be the farm that those that ran off would have gotten anchored had it been lead. Even if it wasn't the bulk of the pattern. I know tss has got to be bad stuff because you see to many birds being killed. There is no denying it. All 8 had holes everywhere in their heads. I would love to gain confidence in it though because I would rather hunt with my 20ga than a 12.

[Number17]

Basically TSS allows more pellets to hit but takes more hits to kill.

Lead allows for less pellets to hit but takes far fewer hits to kill.

Well, I'm compelled to do this again.
That is false. Each little #9TSS kills just as cleanly as each heavier & bigger lead #5.....and there is over twice as many of them per a given mass.
Maybe this thread should have be titled the misconceptions between lead and TSS?

[Jbird22]

I have always been a lead guy. I loved the Winchester extended range and would still shoot them if they still made it. I'm not debating but really trying to understand more about from all you guys that shoot tss and maybe what I'm doing wrong. I shot tss for the last 2 years and 1 out of 8 birds it killed dead right there, the rest took off running for 30 or 40 yards and just fell over. I've never had that problem with lead. I have switched back to lead because of that. Has anyone else had this problem. The way it looks on paper it seems it would be devastating.

If 7 out of 8 gobblers took off running you're not putting the shot where it should go or shooting way too far.

They definitely wasn't to far. But I'm not doubting you at all on my part. That's what puzzled me. I'm not a betting man, if I were though I'd be the farm that those that ran off would have gotten anchored had it been lead. Even if it wasn't the bulk of the pattern. I know tss has got to be bad stuff because you see to many birds being killed. There is no denying it. All 8 had holes everywhere in their heads. I would love to gain confidence in it though because I would rather hunt with my 20ga than a 12.

For starters....

- Which load and gauge? (factory or handload)
- Shot size?
- Range?

[crow]

Basically TSS allows more pellets to hit but takes more hits to kill.

Lead allows for less pellets to hit but takes far fewer hits to kill.

Well, I'm compelled to do this again.
That is false. Each little #9TSS kills just as cleanly as each heavier & bigger lead #5.....and there is over twice as many of them per a given mass.
Maybe this thread should have be titled the misconceptions between lead and TSS?

I agree with the rebuttal except in my experiences with #9 TSS it is more equal in real world killing performance to #4 lead rather than #5 lead. Before going to the Fed HVWT #7 or TSS #9 loads in a 20ga. I was primarily a #4 CP lead hunter.

[lalongbeard75]

Before repeating the TSS claims you might want to actually look at the factual numbers.

The often quoted "TSS #9 is the same weight as a lead 4 or 5 is DEAD WRONG. TSS # 9 is no where close to the same weight as a lead #5 let alone a lead #4.

Kinetic energy another TSS soap box. KE is mass times velocity squared. In other words a heavier object going faster has more KE period. Look at the numbers again. Most lead Turkey loads have faster velocities than the TSS loads. So again a lead # 5 traveling faster will have more KE, more bone breaking power. Even if the TSS load is the exact same velocity as the lead load the TSS will still have less KE because it's lighter.

The number one benefit I see in TSS is the dense patterns it usually gives because of the small shot size.
For TSS to match a lead 4 or 5 you'd have to use TSS 7s or even 6s which would then negate the dense patterns of the smaller shot ie. #9s.

If you start comparing Heavy shot the discrepancy increases in favor of the heavier shot.

Why has this TSS #9 vs lead #5 fairy tale continually being propagated on various forums, podcasts, even in print? Good question. My guess is the ones selling and hyping TSS know the truth but also know the average Joe doesn't understand physics or care to, and if you repeat the same thing over enough most will believe it and swear it's gospel.

The numbers of weight per pellet, velocities etc. are easily obtained. Look for yourself

[Ihuntoldschool]

Once again I feel compelled to set the record straight.

TSS does kill but to be clear it takes more pellet hits to get the job done compared to lead shot sizes used in turkey hunting.

A TSS 9 may penetrate as deep as a lead 5 but it can never hit with near the energy pellet for pellet.
Furthermore,  lead being softer deforms and transfers its energy much better than harder TSS.

I don't care what ppl shoot. But if the topic is explaining the concept of TSS I'll stick with facts over fairy tales every time.

[Bottomland OG]

I have always been a lead guy. I loved the Winchester extended range and would still shoot them if they still made it. I'm not debating but really trying to understand more about from all you guys that shoot tss and maybe what I'm doing wrong. I shot tss for the last 2 years and 1 out of 8 birds it killed dead right there, the rest took off running for 30 or 40 yards and just fell over. I've never had that problem with lead. I have switched back to lead because of that. Has anyone else had this problem. The way it looks on paper it seems it would be devastating.

If 7 out of 8 gobblers took off running you're not putting the shot where it should go or shooting way too far.

They definitely wasn't to far. But I'm not doubting you at all on my part. That's what puzzled me. I'm not a betting man, if I were though I'd be the farm that those that ran off would have gotten anchored had it been lead. Even if it wasn't the bulk of the pattern. I know tss has got to be bad stuff because you see to many birds being killed. There is no denying it. All 8 had holes everywhere in their heads. I would love to gain confidence in it though because I would rather hunt with my 20ga than a 12.

For starters....

- Which load and gauge? (factory or handload)
- Shot size?
- Range?

I was shooting a 20ga. Apex ninja's #8 1/2 and Rouge #9. They were all 25 to 40 yards

[Jbird22]

I have always been a lead guy. I loved the Winchester extended range and would still shoot them if they still made it. I'm not debating but really trying to understand more about from all you guys that shoot tss and maybe what I'm doing wrong. I shot tss for the last 2 years and 1 out of 8 birds it killed dead right there, the rest took off running for 30 or 40 yards and just fell over. I've never had that problem with lead. I have switched back to lead because of that. Has anyone else had this problem. The way it looks on paper it seems it would be devastating.

If 7 out of 8 gobblers took off running you're not putting the shot where it should go or shooting way too far.

They definitely wasn't to far. But I'm not doubting you at all on my part. That's what puzzled me. I'm not a betting man, if I were though I'd be the farm that those that ran off would have gotten anchored had it been lead. Even if it wasn't the bulk of the pattern. I know tss has got to be bad stuff because you see to many birds being killed. There is no denying it. All 8 had holes everywhere in their heads. I would love to gain confidence in it though because I would rather hunt with my 20ga than a 12.

For starters....

- Which load and gauge? (factory or handload)
- Shot size?
- Range?

I was shooting a 20ga. Apex ninja's #8 1/2 and Rouge #9. They were all 25 to 40 yards

Surprised to hear that. Those loads should have been devastating at those ranges.

[Marc]

Shot shells kill by putting as many pellets as possible in the vitals has nothing to do with wound channel or hole size. Will 1 pellet kill a turkey absolutely, but putting 70 in the vitals will do it much more efficiently.

I do not think that is quite accurate?

A single #1 steel pellet traveling all the way through a bird, will do more tissue damage than a single #9 TSS pellet traveling all the way through the bird.

Larger wound channels have a greater chance of doing tissue damage than smaller wound channels.  Multiple smaller wound channels have a higher chance of causing tissue damage to vitals than a single larger wound channel (which is what I believe your point is).

We are not shooting #14 TSS cause at some point the pellets become too small to accomplish what we are hoping.  You have to cause enough tissue damage to vital organs for a load to be efficient.

While a turkey is relatively large compared to other birds hunted, we are shooting a smaller target.  We do not shoot at the body of a turkey, we shoot at the head...  We need pellets that are large enough to damage/break vertebrae to be lethal, but small enough to put a lot of pellets in the area (in order to hit).

The hardness and increased density both lead to tighter patterns (and less fliers) as well as increased down-range energy...  This means that a smaller pellet of higher density will travel further than a large pellet of lesser density...  But...  a #4 TSS pellet will still travel further than a #9 TSS pellet.