Turkey Czar?

[ScottTaulbee]

Mr. Gregg; please don't misinterpret my meaning here bc of text. I ask this with the utmost respect. What does Tele- check do besides hint at what counties the most turkeys are being killed in? Remember, the state of MS itself believes only roughly 1/3 of actual harvest was reported ( NWTF Turkey reports). While I'm tolerant of OS hunters ( being one myself on occasion) that is not info I would want having readily available. Saw a YouTube hunt just the other day where OS hunters were using county by county harvest reports as part of the hunt plan....While I may agree with the peak gobbling graphs etc, that's not gonna really sway me to hunt that day or not. Again, no challenge here- I am genuinely interested in the answer for my own personal knowledge.

I'm not Greg but I'll give you my take on it. We have tele check here in Ky and I absolutely believe a driving factor is the numbers that are accessible as far as where to go from a traveling hunter perspective. A local WMA numbers have doubled the past two years and the pressure each year is worse and worse. My state also goes as far as telling exactly which counties have the highest take and you can also look up a person based on name and see where they killed their turkey at. And on top of that, if you kill it on public you have to list which public it was taken at. But my head scratcher is certainly like yours, our agency isn't doing anything?. The numbers of take are increasing across the state and across each WMA each year but our regulations haven't changed since they opened the spring season in 96. The only change they have done, is to take two birds from the fall hunters, which is a 100% political move to appease the masses considering, including our archery season, the fall season spans 6 months and around 1,200 turkeys are taken in that 6 months total, mostly from incidental deer hunter sightings. But in the spring season we are killing over 34,000 turkeys in 3 weeks. From a biology standpoint, in the fall you have 35 to 45% more turkeys on the landscape than during spring (predation, weather, etc), yet they would rather us kill less in the fall, (because it's not the money grabber) than kill less in the spring during breeding season/ while hens are nesting.

As far as my state, that's about the only thing I've ever seen the department use telecheck numbers for. Political/ economical gain. 


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Wouldn't check station data be available to the public as well?

I'm unsure of that. We haven't had a check station in my state since before I was born


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[ScottTaulbee]

Mr. Gregg; please don't misinterpret my meaning here bc of text. I ask this with the utmost respect. What does Tele- check do besides hint at what counties the most turkeys are being killed in? Remember, the state of MS itself believes only roughly 1/3 of actual harvest was reported ( NWTF Turkey reports). While I'm tolerant of OS hunters ( being one myself on occasion) that is not info I would want having readily available. Saw a YouTube hunt just the other day where OS hunters were using county by county harvest reports as part of the hunt plan....While I may agree with the peak gobbling graphs etc, that's not gonna really sway me to hunt that day or not. Again, no challenge here- I am genuinely interested in the answer for my own personal knowledge.

I'm not Greg but I'll give you my take on it. We have tele check here in Ky and I absolutely believe a driving factor is the numbers that are accessible as far as where to go from a traveling hunter perspective. A local WMA numbers have doubled the past two years and the pressure each year is worse and worse. My state also goes as far as telling exactly which counties have the highest take and you can also look up a person based on name and see where they killed their turkey at. And on top of that, if you kill it on public you have to list which public it was taken at. But my head scratcher is certainly like yours, our agency isn't doing anything?. The numbers of take are increasing across the state and across each WMA each year but our regulations haven't changed since they opened the spring season in 96. The only change they have done, is to take two birds from the fall hunters, which is a 100% political move to appease the masses considering, including our archery season, the fall season spans 6 months and around 1,200 turkeys are taken in that 6 months total, mostly from incidental deer hunter sightings. But in the spring season we are killing over 34,000 turkeys in 3 weeks. From a biology standpoint, in the fall you have 35 to 45% more turkeys on the landscape than during spring (predation, weather, etc), yet they would rather us kill less in the fall, (because it's not the money grabber) than kill less in the spring during breeding season/ while hens are nesting.

As far as my state, that's about the only thing I've ever seen the department use telecheck numbers for. Political/ economical gain. 


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Wouldn't check station data be available to the public as well?

Completely unrelated to this topic but, I enjoy your podcast, especially the one with Denny!. Y'all are doing a good job with it


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[Paulmyr]

Mr. Gregg; please don't misinterpret my meaning here bc of text. I ask this with the utmost respect. What does Tele- check do besides hint at what counties the most turkeys are being killed in? Remember, the state of MS itself believes only roughly 1/3 of actual harvest was reported ( NWTF Turkey reports). While I'm tolerant of OS hunters ( being one myself on occasion) that is not info I would want having readily available. Saw a YouTube hunt just the other day where OS hunters were using county by county harvest reports as part of the hunt plan....While I may agree with the peak gobbling graphs etc, that's not gonna really sway me to hunt that day or not. Again, no challenge here- I am genuinely interested in the answer for my own personal knowledge.

I'm not Greg but I'll give you my take on it. We have tele check here in Ky and I absolutely believe a driving factor is the numbers that are accessible as far as where to go from a traveling hunter perspective. A local WMA numbers have doubled the past two years and the pressure each year is worse and worse. My state also goes as far as telling exactly which counties have the highest take and you can also look up a person based on name and see where they killed their turkey at. And on top of that, if you kill it on public you have to list which public it was taken at. But my head scratcher is certainly like yours, our agency isn't doing anything?. The numbers of take are increasing across the state and across each WMA each year but our regulations haven't changed since they opened the spring season in 96. The only change they have done, is to take two birds from the fall hunters, which is a 100% political move to appease the masses considering, including our archery season, the fall season spans 6 months and around 1,200 turkeys are taken in that 6 months total, mostly from incidental deer hunter sightings. But in the spring season we are killing over 34,000 turkeys in 3 weeks. From a biology standpoint, in the fall you have 35 to 45% more turkeys on the landscape than during spring (predation, weather, etc), yet they would rather us kill less in the fall, (because it's not the money grabber) than kill less in the spring during breeding season/ while hens are nesting.

As far as my state, that's about the only thing I've ever seen the department use telecheck numbers for. Political/ economical gain. 


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Wouldn't check station data be available to the public as well?

I'm unsure of that. We haven't had a check station in my state since before I was born


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Back around 1990 we used harvest data to help plan our 1st out of state trip and that state had check stations and physical tags at the time.

[Paulmyr]

Mr. Gregg; please don't misinterpret my meaning here bc of text. I ask this with the utmost respect. What does Tele- check do besides hint at what counties the most turkeys are being killed in? Remember, the state of MS itself believes only roughly 1/3 of actual harvest was reported ( NWTF Turkey reports). While I'm tolerant of OS hunters ( being one myself on occasion) that is not info I would want having readily available. Saw a YouTube hunt just the other day where OS hunters were using county by county harvest reports as part of the hunt plan....While I may agree with the peak gobbling graphs etc, that's not gonna really sway me to hunt that day or not. Again, no challenge here- I am genuinely interested in the answer for my own personal knowledge.

I'm not Greg but I'll give you my take on it. We have tele check here in Ky and I absolutely believe a driving factor is the numbers that are accessible as far as where to go from a traveling hunter perspective. A local WMA numbers have doubled the past two years and the pressure each year is worse and worse. My state also goes as far as telling exactly which counties have the highest take and you can also look up a person based on name and see where they killed their turkey at. And on top of that, if you kill it on public you have to list which public it was taken at. But my head scratcher is certainly like yours, our agency isn't doing anything?. The numbers of take are increasing across the state and across each WMA each year but our regulations haven't changed since they opened the spring season in 96. The only change they have done, is to take two birds from the fall hunters, which is a 100% political move to appease the masses considering, including our archery season, the fall season spans 6 months and around 1,200 turkeys are taken in that 6 months total, mostly from incidental deer hunter sightings. But in the spring season we are killing over 34,000 turkeys in 3 weeks. From a biology standpoint, in the fall you have 35 to 45% more turkeys on the landscape than during spring (predation, weather, etc), yet they would rather us kill less in the fall, (because it's not the money grabber) than kill less in the spring during breeding season/ while hens are nesting.

As far as my state, that's about the only thing I've ever seen the department use telecheck numbers for. Political/ economical gain. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Wouldn't check station data be available to the public as well?

Completely unrelated to this topic but, I enjoy your podcast, especially the one with Denny!. Y'all are doing a good job with it


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Thank you.

[NCL]

I would assign a civil value to turkey based on the economic return these birds provide. Then any violation, such as a poached bird, over limit would, would be assessed that civil penalty above fine and or jail time.

Issue a tag which must be validated by a warden or other designated agency. The tag then needed to returned or filed on line with the outdoor agency.

[Spurs]

I am on the side of "state regulating their own", so I'll speak for my home stater: Arkansas

-Total ban of decoys.
-Keep season the same as this year (Zone 1: April 15-23, 2024 / Zone 2: April 15-May 5, 2024)
-Push youth hunt back to April 13-14 (week earlier at this point)
-All WMAs first 3 days draw only with no more than 10% to non residents.
-All Federal Ground that is not leased by the state is open the entire season, but any road deemed unimproved are gated and locked by end of February.
-Issue required Turkey Stamps that provide 100% funds go to Turkey research WITH full disclosure of where funds were allocated yearly.
-Reword language that considers EBikes as motorized. (Current regs say under 750 are allowed on WMAs).


The most important to me is developing a legislated Stream Management Zone for any designated Creek or larger with a minimum 300 foot DO NOT DISTURB for any private land ownership whose owner holds more than 1000 acres.  This would put a stop to logging companies completely wiping out what little bottom lands hardwoods are remaining and possibly revert some of that back in my kids lifetime.

[Prospector]

As my post showed as well; eradicating hardwoods is a big pblm for me too. If it is so valuable then there needs to be areas set aside for it to be harvested just like the pines AND dedicated SMZ for drainages, creeks and other waterways where it is not only never touched but actually replanted if current distances doesn't match regulation. On board there my friend!

[Marc]

I would assign a civil value to turkey based on the economic return these birds provide. Then any violation, such as a poached bird, over limit would, would be assessed that civil penalty above fine and or jail time.

Issue a tag which must be validated by a warden or other designated agency. The tag then needed to returned or filed on line with the outdoor agency.

I would not want to see jail time for poaching....  There is no economic value in putting a poacher in jail...  Expensive to house them, and often resulting in job loss (resulting in the tax payer footing the bill for his existance when he is released).  And in my state overburdening an already over-burdened system.

I would be in favor of fining, and having pay automatically docked...  Along with community service...  I also feel the same about litering.

I do agree with the tag system, that could be electronic or paper....  But that bird needs to be tagged immediately after harvest, and an untagged bird will be fined.

[NCL]

Marc.

We have to agree to disagree on jail time. Unlikely, in our courts, would a violator see jail time for a first offense but where do you draw the line. If it is a repeat offender  second, third, or more offenses would you still keep the opinion no jail time. I certainly think the the penalties you propose for first offenses are very appropriate, and innovative.

[RutnNStrutn]

Only adult gobblers can be taken. Jakes and hens are off limits until turkey populations start to rebound. The exception would be for youths and disabled hunters.
Bag limits would remain the same, varying by states and bird populations. If the populations continue to decline they would be lowered accordingly.
I would increase funding for research into the decline of turkey populations. It is paramount to figure out what is causing the reduction in turkey numbers.
No blanket laws!! Even though turkey populations are down nationwide, it is not the same in every state, or even every county within a particular state.
No rules penalizing non-resident hunters. That is greedy, and does nothing to help the turkey population. There are a heck of a lot more resident hunters. So if you truly cared about turkey  populations, you would make rules that actually would help the turkeys, instead of just providing more opportunities for residents.

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[Marc]

Marc.

We have to agree to disagree on jail time. Unlikely, in our courts, would a violator see jail time for a first offense but where do you draw the line. If it is a repeat offender  second, third, or more offenses would you still keep the opinion no jail time. I certainly think the the penalties you propose for first offenses are very appropriate, and innovative.

Great post...  I would still argue it is situational...

Know some folks up in the hills that shoot turkeys and deer out of season for food...  I am always surprised at how poor some of those land-owners are.  I take no issue with them shooting a deer on their property for food when they need it...

In California, they are letting violent criminals and rapists out of prison due to not having enough room in the prisons...  I just do not think it feasable to house someone in jail for shooting turkey or deer out of season, when rapists are getting out.  Most judges would scoff at their time being wasted for such a crime...  Me, I would get fined to the full extent for not completely removing a barb while fishing in a barbless hook only area though.

Yep...  I would like to see them punished...  But if the fine is enough, I think it would be a good deterent.  Can't pay the fine, we will take your vehicle as payment...  Jail time in California is not a deterent, cause nobody serves it...

[eggshell]

In Ohio almost all wildlife violations are only misdemeanors and don't call for jail unless it is an egregious offense. We do have stiff fines and your gear, including vehicles can be seized and forfeited. I doubt any judge would ever jail someone over a small misdemeanor. Most wildlife tickets are simply a defined bond and I agree with that. They work much like a traffic ticket. Now officers can take more severe cases to court and ask for stronger penalties. The offender also must make restitution for any illegally taken animal, wild turkeys are $750.00, on top of fines. I wouldn't put someone in jail for shooting one extra animal or failing to have a license. Put yourself in that position. How would you feel if you miscounted a dove limit and had one extra bird and got thrown in jail and then your employer fires you over an ethics issue? Let's be real, a wildlife violation is just not that big a deal compared to all the crime our courts see. Sure we are close to it and feel deeply offended, but 80% of the population does not see it from our view. I imagine if we're honest almost all of us have broken a wildlife law or two, how would you like a jail record for that? Now if your a habitual poacher, then that's different and most state laws treat them that way.

[GobbleNut]

These comments really don't fit the question exactly, but rather are just a basic philosophy I have on the subject.
For me, this basically comes down to ensuring the resource is not put in jeopardy by having hunting regulations that are too liberal...while at the same time, providing as much opportunity to hunters as the resource can reasonably tolerate.  ...But also taking into consideration that there is also the issue of providing a certain level of "quality" rather than just "quantity". 

Those factors can be quite different in places across the country...or even within the boundaries of individual states.  There is no doubt in my mind, based just on discussions on this forum among some of the most knowledgeable turkey hunters across the country, that regulations have been way too liberal in some places. Wildlife managers just have not kept up with the changing times in terms of pressure being put on the resource through increasing hunter numbers and increasingly effective hunting methodology.  Combine that with the factors that are negatively impacting the ability of turkey populations to naturally sustain themselves through reproductive success and the corresponding survival of young turkeys to adulthood, and that all adds up to the existing dilemma we have with hunting management. 

Conversely, there are still places where the last paragraph does not apply...YET.  However, that may well be on the horizon even in those places if there is not careful consideration by both wildlife managers and hunters that the existing trends are not sustainable. 

Although I live in a state where turkey populations have been relatively stable over the decades, I am seeing changes that are raising my concern.  Gobbler numbers are noticeably decreasing in the spring season here.  Over the last decade, our hunter numbers have increased by roughly 50% and harvest by almost 60%.  Surrounding states are modifying their regulations downward while we are not,...and unfortunately, our wildlife managers don't seem to be aware of the potential storm on the horizon that may well be caused by that. 

I could go on...but enough for now...