Closet Reapers??

[mookyj]

You mention assuming...  as a conspiracy was not mentioned and I 'assume' you did this to deflate as a arguing tactic.

There are websites set up by anti-hunters that list as many mishaps we hunters have in order to make us look bad. Maybe your Google skills could find that? I have run into plenty of doubting Thomas's such as you in the past. If you can't or won't take up the time to properly research the topic, then willful ignorance is what suits you. Most never put forth the effort to look past what suits their premise or stop at the first instance it agrees with their thinking. You'll enjoy my book "Reapercide" coming out after I get the current queue cleared. Maybe then, your "Google" will find something.

Maybe I could hire you to lure in big bucks after buying you a generous life insurance policy to wear a deer suit and sport a set of booners this fall for the opening day of deer season? It is an exacting parallel and just as lacking in any concern for safety.

I have had turkey hunters come up to me while I was a state chapter president at NWTF conventions with large envelopes, filled with a photo(s) and copies of reports, that I could not find on the web, their stories did not exist on the internet, making it impossible to find any depositions or followups to stories even while having more info to narrow searches, and that goes way back to 1999. there's been eight of those that they wanted someone to know it actually happened. What you will find are summarized reports calling it an accident, and sometimes they mention stalking or decoys, with no detail whatsoever. No conspiracy just underreported. Nice try...

I hope you learn to take up comprehensive reading as if I wished to put it forth as such that it is a conspiracy I would have done so. I sure would have written it far differently. No between the lines to read.  I find it rather odd your "research" failed to bring up any report. Yet I have cited them in my blog postings. I do stand behind "show me the money" is lame and intellectually lazy. HIPAA laws, pending litigation forbids the release of the very information we want to know.  If you can't grasp that, can't help you, no further discussion will be fruitful. Small hint- set up your Google search to send reports based on keywords. If you had/have a genuine intent to learn, you might find this helpful...

...Is it (demonstrably and significantly) safe...or conversely, unsafe?  (a subjective question until statistically supported one way or the other)....

...As for the safety issue, I don't want to sound like I discount it, but I am somewhat of a "show me the money" guy in that I want ("require" is a better term) factual support for taking any position on that particular matter.  At this point in time, I just don't see it.  There are a LOT of things we do in our lives that are a lot more dangerous than any sort of tactic any of us might use in hunting turkeys.

The privacy laws and restrictions before trial render "show me the money" as a lame and moot position. I don't intend to be snarky in saying this. But it is frustrating to read this in a vacuum of willful ignorance.   There are still a few fanning/reaping events actually described if you bother to google it. Bother to look...

I will preface this rebuttal by stating that I, too, am not trying to be snarky...just stating my opinion based on my observations and research. 

I took your advice and "Googled it" again, as it has been a while since the last time I did it.  I must assume my Google is different from your Google (living out here in the wild west makes anything possible, I suppose) since I perused quite a number of pages looking objectively for any support for the possibility that I am being willfully ignorant in my stance that, as of now, fanning and/or reaping have not been shown to be any more dangerous than other activities associated with turkey hunting accidents.  From my cursory inspection of those pages of reports on turkey hunting accidents, reaping/fanning fell far behind other causes such as mistaken for game (not reaping/fanning related) and accidental discharge of firearms accidents. 

I must also assume from your comments that you possibly believe there is a nefarious conspiracy by law enforcement, authorities, and/or wildlife agencies to intentionally not report, or otherwise cover up, turkey hunting accidents involving fanning/reaping while, on the other hand, there are all sorts of other hunting accident reports on Google.  Perhaps all of these agencies are in cahoots with the makers of all the reaping/fanning/decoy equipment and aids on the market because preserving their product sales is way more important than saving the lives of the supposed myriad hunters that theoretically have been shot while taking part in this practice...and that have supposedly not been reported.  Simply put, if there was any significant correlation between turkey hunting accidents and reaping/fanning, we would most certainly have seen actions taken to stop the practice by now.  In addition, if and when such a correlation is shown, I will be the first to run up the red flag.

And finally, I am not here to defend reaping/fanning.  I would like to see the practice eliminated because I believe turkey gobblers are too susceptible to it, may result in the overharvest of our gobbler populations, and is very questionable in terms of whether it constitutes fair chase...not to mention the possibility that the practice has resulted in an overall reduction of hunting opportunity in many places.  I repeat, if you want me to jump on board the "let's outlaw reaping/fanning because it is too unsafe" train, you STILL have to show this old boy the hard evidence to support your position.  I most certainly did not find it in my Google search. 

...On the other hand, if you want to eliminate the practice based on the concept of fair chase and possibly jeopardizing turkey populations, I am totally on board. 

[eggshell]

As far as accident causes go, I know Ohio records all  accidents that are reported and all of those are investigated. In most every case the shooter is cited. A simple records request would get this data. When I was working we got a season summary news release and it would include the number of accidents and if any were fatal. Most news media outlets never reported it. I don't know if this is still done. I do know accidents were on a decline. Most common cause I knew of was mistaken for game and usually calling and movement were involved. Failure to properly identify game was what was the mistake in most. Some were simply unsafe firearms handling and accidental discharge. Decoys were involved in many of them, but it wasn't a statistical significant factor. I do not oppose decoys or many of the many disputed methods. I agree with Gobblenut that reaping seems wrong on a biological stance but has not proven to be a significant cause of accidents. Maybe this is because those using it are keenly aware of the risk and actually make more effort to do it more carefully. At the end of the day, we as hunters bear all the responsibility to be sure of what we are shooting. I think hunter safety training has greatly reduced hunting accidents.

As far as this forum goes, we are just a small group of hunters and more like a deer camp than anything representative of the hunting public as a whole. We do not even make the cut when applied to the rest of licensed turkey hunters. Of all the turkey hunters I know I am the odd duck and not the norm. Almost all them use decoys, blinds, cameras and the most modern loads. I have no qualm with any of them and I will hunt with those close to me. If they want to take decoys along I will never say no, but they know I don't like to use them so they normally don't take them, but if they do I will be ok with it. If we get birds into decoys it's their shot and they are welcome to take the bird and I will do the dance with them. I personally have never shot a bird over a decoy and since we're using numbers, that's 200+ birds. I like the discussion as it expands my knowledge base and I find it as a form of comradery and friendship. I am sorry that it has become offensive and contentious. Perhaps we are harming the forum's ability to appeal to the masses and common turkey hunter, but I don't think so. I have seen what happens on the unmonitored or poorly monitored forums and it gets ugly fast. My appeal is to step back take a breath and lets all be brothers and friends. I have difference of opinions with all my friends, but I still love and care for everyone of them. I have the same feelings for the friends here.

The OP posed the original question; Closet Reaper? and asked a review of a video on reaping
I am going to make the assumption he was asking if maybe in the right time and place and with personal privacy that if we'd secretly consider using the tactic. I will go on record as saying no for myself.  I have witnessed it and I decided it was unfair to the birds. Just my opinion. I have hunted with guys carrying fans and I make it clear I am sitting back and not participating if they pull it out, but I do not tell them they can't do it. I also believe many hunters would us it if they had a chance to do it privately and secretly, this is just human nature. I have done many things in my life I am not proud of and I suspect we all have. Principle is something developed not inherent, we're all working on it.

[jhoward11]

I would add "You (Reap) what you sow". I understand it's legal, but is it the smartest thing to do? Would not do it myself or especially with a kid for the safety aspect. If you taught a kid to hunt like this (knowing how dangerous it could be) and next season he was shot and killed doing what you taught him. Good luck living with that. NO THANK YOU!!!

[Marc]

As for the safety issue, I don't want to sound like I discount it, but I am somewhat of a "show me the money" guy in that I want ("require" is a better term) factual support for taking any position on that particular matter.  At this point in time, I just don't see it.  There are a LOT of things we do in our lives that are a lot more dangerous than any sort of tactic any of us might use in hunting turkeys.

As mentioned above, I know of several people involved in hunting accidents...  Never made the papers or the news...  So, unless you know the person being shot, this is not widely publicized (which is probably a good thing for the optics of hunting).

Even if the number of people shot from reaping doubled, it would still not be significant enough to make it to public information...  So how would we know if the numbers for hunting incidents from reaping are increasing (unlsess someone dies).

[Paulmyr]

After reading some of the most recent post I have drafted the following letter to the Florida Wildlife Commission (FWC).  I will await comments from this group of opinionated hunters before hitting the send button:

Dear FWC,

After being thoroughly educated on proper behavior by the Turkey Psychologists on the Old Gobbler forum I have no choice, in good conscience, to request the removal of my name and 2008 Osceola entry from the Florida Outstanding Gobbler list.  It currently stands at number 133.  Little did I know that even with getting up at 2am, walking through the dark into a deep cypress swamp, setting up behind a piece of camo netting (gasp), and calling to this bird for at least an hour his fate was sealed only because we used decoys.  I now feel like we poached him.  No other factors should be considered regarding this bird's demise. I could not be more embarrassed. 
I have hunted these wild turkeys since the late 1970s and my unofficial log and beard box shows my lifetime total at well over a 100 birds from multiple states.  I will attempt to purge my records and eliminate any birds from this count where I'm certain we had used decoys, camo netting, TSS loads or viewed them previously on a game camera.  I do often use an original tube call personally sold to me by Harold Knight in his Cadiz KY barbershop but I think that is still acceptable behavior. Thank heavens we never reaped or I would stick my head in the oven or take up reaping to get the same result.  I will also attempt to forget any tips I learned from social media even it requires hypnosis. After all fair is fair. 
Thank you for your consideration of this request.

Sincerely,

me

Should I hit send??
(note - no mention of not being snarky - we're well past snarky)

Well that's it! Close the thread! The debate has been settled and I've changed my mind. It must have been the way you so eloquently cited your observations of turkey behavior over your vast years of hunting experience. Or maybe it's the way you pat yourself on the back and feel the need for further ego stroking by stating the number of gobblers you've slain including your entry to the by god almighty 2008 Florida's Outstanding Gobblers list that did it for me.

My brother killed a 28lb, 11 inch bearded, 1.5" spurred gobbler his 1st morning ever turkey hunting some 30 odd years ago and yes he killed him using a Jake and hen decoy. He didn't know a thing about turkeys and how to hunt them. His calling was pathetic. All he knew was the gobblers looked different than the hens and they gobbled. There was no hunting involved. He got up at 3am, drove 20 mins to his spot, walked to a tree on the edge of a pasture, set out his decoys, sat down, and waited for the sun to come up. Shortly after flydown the brute emerged from the woods and promptly stomped the Jake decoy before my brother dropped the hammer on him. He was back in his truck before the sun came up so you'll have to forgive me if I don't stand in awe while basking in the radiance of your glory and take a knee to kiss the ring because of your great accomplishments and the fact you bought a turkey call from Harold Knight.

Wait, wait, I got it. I have been converted by the way you talk down to people as though you are the know all, be all, God of turkey hunting and I need to shut up and obey for the simple fact that it's you.


Thanks for opening my eyes with the great accounts of your experiences and the wisdom you've shared. I'm forever in your debt!

How's that for being well past snarky?

[El Pavo Grande]

After reading some of the most recent post I have drafted the following letter to the Florida Wildlife Commission (FWC).  I will await comments from this group of opinionated hunters before hitting the send button:

Dear FWC,

After being thoroughly educated on proper behavior by the Turkey Psychologists on the Old Gobbler forum I have no choice, in good conscience, to request the removal of my name and 2008 Osceola entry from the Florida Outstanding Gobbler list.  It currently stands at number 133.  Little did I know that even with getting up at 2am, walking through the dark into a deep cypress swamp, setting up behind a piece of camo netting (gasp), and calling to this bird for at least an hour his fate was sealed only because we used decoys.  I now feel like we poached him.  No other factors should be considered regarding this bird's demise. I could not be more embarrassed. 
I have hunted these wild turkeys since the late 1970s and my unofficial log and beard box shows my lifetime total at well over a 100 birds from multiple states.  I will attempt to purge my records and eliminate any birds from this count where I'm certain we had used decoys, camo netting, TSS loads or viewed them previously on a game camera.  I do often use an original tube call personally sold to me by Harold Knight in his Cadiz KY barbershop but I think that is still acceptable behavior. Thank heavens we never reaped or I would stick my head in the oven or take up reaping to get the same result.  I will also attempt to forget any tips I learned from social media even it requires hypnosis. After all fair is fair. 
Thank you for your consideration of this request.

Sincerely,

me

Should I hit send??
(note - no mention of not being snarky - we're well past snarky)

Seems like opinions that question 80-90 yard shots, electronic decoys, electronic callers, safety with reaping, etc. are considered anti-hunters should sit down and shut up.  Surprising for someone that's turkey hunted for 50 years.  It's like the argument, "that's why we have limits"..... breaking news - not all limits are meant to be filled or we would have none left to hunt.  But, as said before let's just not say anything and continue to cut corners as hunters and see where we end up. 

A guy at work has a brother trying to patent an audio device that could be set up with instant notification and eliminate scouting.... That's the gist of the product.  Yep, makes perfect sense.  Let's just continue with advancements and remain quiet.

[Hook hanger]

If you want to crawl around behind a gobbler decoy you should give up your rights to prosecute if you are shot or killed. People trying to defend themselves saying its always the shooters fault should be smacked upside thier heads. If you you act and look like a target animal in the woods its you who put yourself in that senerio plain and simple.

[Paulmyr]

The big turkey decline will be solved or controlled with reduced limits and shorter seasons.  When that is accepted all the decoy, TSS, blinds, etc concerns will fade away.

Sounds like opinion to me but you state it as fact. New research and investigations are starting to reveal the possibility that the biggest culprit in the decline in turkey populations is the drastic reduction in polt rearing habitat. Habitat that polts need for the 1st few weeks after being hatched. One of the biggest contributors to this decline seems to have been the introduction of CRP when the farm bill was signed in 1985. This program appears to be responsible for the desecration of millions of acres of possible polt rearing habitat by paying for the  implementation of poorly managed pine forest and invasive grasses that are of little use to turkeys just out of the egg in the name of erosion control and protecting water quality.

There is a distinct correlation between the implementation of these pine forest to the boom in wild turkey populations when vast acres of soil were disturbed to plant the trees. During the early stages of development these pine plantings provided excellent habitat for rearing polts during the boom in populations in the late 80's and 90's.

Many land owners were more than happy to convert poor and marginal ag/pasture land to these CRP pine habitats with the promise of a cash crop of mature trees after the land was to be withdrawn from the program. Great plan in theory for the land owner but here's the catch. After the advent of the personal computer and the internet the bottom fell out of the paper market. Emails are sent instead of letters and written works (private and business)are stored on hard drives instead of typed out on paper. It appears the internet is extremely culpable for the decline of wild turkeys in certain areas but not because of social media.

When the bottom of the paper market dropped out the management of these pine plantings went to the wayside. Mills closed and there was no way for land owners to cash in on their pine crops. Thinnings of the trees weren't followed through on and vast acres of this CRP pine grew into a jumbled mess of little use to wild turkey or their polts. The correlation between these maturing jumbled pine plantings and the decline in wild turkeys populations also exists. That's just the pine factor in this equation not taking into account the millions of acres of native habitat that was lost to the planting and spread of invasive mat forming grasses like fescue and bermuda.

As of now polt rearing habitat is a dismal percentage of the overall landscape available to turkeys. When or if land owners become aware of this problem and if they do something about it things will change for the wild turkey. When I say land owners I mean private, federal, state, and county. If the push is made to get these private owners and the govt entities to reclaim these converted areas and to stop the planting of non native mat forming grasses and start panting native grasses and forbes beneficial to the wild turkey they will recover. Those are big if's. Than possibly the talk of banning in the name of preserving the wild turkey will cease.

Still doesn't change my opinion on decoys because I believe it's a fair chase issue.

[Turkeybutt]

Suffice it to say: We grow old too fast and smart too slow!

[Yoder409]

Suffice it to say: We grow old too fast and smart too slow!

Ain't THAT the truth ??

[crow]

Suffice it to say: We grow old too fast and smart too slow!

Is this more of that Lanc. Co. cow manure you've been shoveling 

[Paulmyr]

I hear 70 is the new 50!

[guesswho]

I hear 70 is the new 50!

I'm in trouble then.   I barely survived 50 the first time. 

[Happy]

Haven't seen 50 yet, but I make the 40s look as good or better than the 20's.

[Paulmyr]

I hear 70 is the new 50!

I'm in trouble then.   I barely survived 50 the first time.

I hear that and I'm not sure I'm getting any more intelligenter either!