Closet Reapers??

[Prospector]

Well, I wanna make this point. This is assuming we see the truth in THP/Pinhoti videos: They ain't using ultra realistic decoys or  blinds. The THP guys guns look like several in my safe ( not hi dollar) and while Dave is shooting Benelli, it's a 20 with hand loaded TSS 9s ( not max dram 10-12s with 7s TSS) And most of its public ( which I will agree shouldn't be "pimped"). However, those guys find success without all those crutches so called hunters limp along on. If all that was taken away I believe a large majority of the Turkey hunting population would stay home... and it wouldn't matter as much if all those spots were revealed.... Just food for thought and a little pot stirring.

[El Pavo Grande]

Bout as bad as the ones who complain when someone shoots their Strutting decoy and then act like it's the shooters fault.

Is this a serious post?

I would lean this way.  Some responsibility has to lie with the person reaping or sitting behind a full strut decoy, many that look very life like.  That's one reason it shouldn't be legal to reap.  Imagine you are sitting at a field edge, higher grass with break of a hill 25-30 steps away.  Early morning, turkey gobbled not long before, just out of sight.  You heard him drumming.  A few minutes later he goes quiet.   A little bit later a real fan tops the break, and then a gobbler in full strut tops the the hill.   Maybe the sun is in your eyes.  Maybe it's a little foggy.    Not a person on here for at least a split second wouldn't think it's a real gobbler.   Not saying you don't figure it out, but horrible mistakes can happen fast.  So, I believe in that case, the guy crawling behind the decoy should receive the brunt of the blame.  That's being brutally honest.... Just don't do it!!

[Marc]

Bout as bad as the ones who complain when someone shoots their Strutting decoy and then act like it's the shooters fault.

Is this a serious post?

I do not completely disagree...

I remember a professor talking about hunting accidents, that were largely due to the human brain often times seeing what it wants to see.  The discussion took place around several incidents that were well-known.  One was a girl wearing a purple jacket shot in her yard wearing white mittens.  Young kid killed her under the supervision of a guide.

Imagine someone learning to turkey hunt...  Has not killed a bird yet...  Realistic decoy with a turkey fan???

And...  I have known of several people that have been shot hunting.  Couple of turkey hunters, my father quail hunting, another friend self-inflicted while duck hunting (lost his foot)...  None of this made the "hunting news."  I know my fathers incident was not reported anywhere as a hunting accident...

So how would we know if more people are getting shot???

[eggshell]

I have deliberately not brought this up, because most of the posters in this thread already know it and I don't want to dwell on it. People will just get tired of hearing it and my story becomes ineffective. The last few post have convinced me I should say something.

Now I am speaking from the perspective of someone who has been shot turkey hunting and fought for his life, went through a year of healing and fought the legal battles over health care charges. Listen to me and listen well, YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR EVERY SHOT YOU TAKE, PERIOD! Where it ends up is the shooter's responsibility, stupidity on the other end does not matter, know what you are shooting. Deflection of this responsibility will not hold up in a court of law, I know this for 100% fact. I lived this nightmare and almost gave my life to it. I watched and worried in desperation as companies came after me for money and threatened to ruin my financial life. Never assume the shooter will pay for everything, mine never paid a dime. So tell me why I should take any responsibility when all I was doing was walking a trail and using a turkey call (all perfectly legal)? My shooter was hunting legally, but made a horrible mistake. I was the one who nearly died and suffered for months if not years, am I to blame? Safety is issue number one to me and will always be. Hunt with me and not practice safety and I will tell you the hunt is over, no discussion. I can not even stand to be around other hunters and I leave soon as I hear someone calling or see someone. I trust very few people. It will most definitely steal much of the joy out of your hunting and haunt you forever. My accident was never reported to anyone except those who know me and those I have told. The local cops were called and they just shrugged it off as an accident and never even reported it to wildlife. I told wildlife officials but no one ever recorded it, you can not find any record of it. How many are out there like mine.

Feel free to debate all you want, but at the end of the day my request is we all ask this one simple question....Is a turkey worth dying for?

So, call me a whiner, complainer and self-righteous if you please, but I wake up and call myself blessed by God to be alive. If my opinions seem dictative and narrow minded it is because I know beyond a doubt what lies on the other side of unsafe behavior, it is pain, tragedy, sadness and despair. with that said, we can not legislate responsible behaviors, but we can limit tools we know encourage unsafe behaviors. It's not about taking liberty away it's about protecting the sanctity of human life. Thanks for reading my whining,selfish and biased rant.

[joey46]

You certainly have a reason to be biased.  No question.
I hope my "rants" aren't misconstrued as being pro reap.  I think reaping is nothing more than a disaster waiting to happen.  I'm lucky enough to be able to hunt some tightly controlled private land.  My usual hunting buddy has mentioned reaping.  We have NEVER tried it and won't if I'm present.  Even although this land is gated, posted, locked and vast in acreage our cameras (still legal)will occasionally pick up two legged intruders that when viewed we say "who the hell is that".  Nobody knows.  Florida is a state that still allows the use of rifles on private land.  To think about crawling around an overgrown pasture in camo holding a turkey tail in front of my face is close to suicidal IMO.  Being shot with a turkey load at 50 yards is scary.  Being sniped at 200 yards by a trespasser with a .243 even more so.  Reaping is a dumb tactic.  If I would see a legal reaper I would think what a dumb nitwit  but wouldn't jump up and shout , reaper reaper in the field, and attempt to stop this still legal hunt. I think some on here would and later post and sanctimoniouly brag about it
My "rants" were first triggered by the "decoy" comments then fed by multiple post on various tactics and equipment  that are perfectly legal but many of the self-righteous think should be restricted or banned in the interest of saving their way of life.  If some would get their way you would have to sign an affidavit that you had not watched a turkey show on social media 6 months prior to hunting and your vehicle would be required to display a WE HATE THP sticker.  It goes without saying, no GPS, no blinds, no OnX, no TSS, no this, no that.  Getting "almost" funny until it isn't. 

[GobbleNut]

Since we are all clarifying our positions on matters, when talking about the use of any sort of hunting tactic that might be legal in a locale, I boil down my opinions on it with three basic questions:  (again, speaking only about hunting-related issues, not biological or environmental ones)

Is it (demonstrably and significantly) safe...or conversely, unsafe?  (a subjective question until statistically supported one way or the other)
Does the use of this tactic fall into the category of "fair chase"?  (again, a subjective question, but generally based on some level of consensus among hunters)
Will the widescale use of this tactic jeopardize turkey populations to a degree that restricting its use needs to be considered  (objective, but requires verifiable evidence, which may or may not be difficult to assess).

Of these three questions, the last two fall into the same category, but the one that concerns me the most is the last.  That is, are the tactics we are allowing to be used resulting in a greater percentage of any segment of the turkey population to be killed than should take place in order to maintain the viability of the resource?  I never even questioned that possibility until the advent of the use of male turkey decoys and fans in spring hunting, but I have personally seen/witnessed enough evidence that I have become concerned that our male turkey population may be being over-harvested in places as a result of the use of this tactic.  Perhaps more empirical evidence is needed to support my concerns about it, but those concerns exist, nevertheless.

As for the safety issue, I don't want to sound like I discount it, but I am somewhat of a "show me the money" guy in that I want ("require" is a better term) factual support for taking any position on that particular matter.  At this point in time, I just don't see it.  There are a LOT of things we do in our lives that are a lot more dangerous than any sort of tactic any of us might use in hunting turkeys.

[joey46]

If in a deer hunting area I don't wear a brown coat and put antlers on my head but that's just me.  Reaping is inherently dangerous by it's nature.
Many states are headed for shorter seasons and reduced limits.  That should take care of the over harvest of male birds.  Just a IMO but all these other so called remedies are smoke and mirrors enacted to postpone the inevitable and keep the residents happy.
Fair chase, when following the law, is in the eye of the beholder.

[crow]

Bo, did you read "Old Pro Turkey Hunter" by Gene Nunnery

"One Man Game " by Kenny Morgan, and of course "Tenth Legion" Tom Kelly

[Paulmyr]

Here's my take on male decoys and especially strutters and fair chase. The dominant gobbler/gobblers in an area "will" react to male/ strutting decoys in their territory especially if he see's a hen decoy or hears a hunter calling from nearby the decoy. He has no choice. He doesn't decide he's going to come over an take a look or pick a fight. He reacts on instinct. It's in his genes. Ha has to do it. It's how he became a dominant gobbler. If he didn't he would be just another subordinate sulking around looking for scraps.

When you deploy male decoys and harvest a gobbler inevitably it will be a turkey with these aggressive dominant genes. Your not calling him in for the shot, your killing an animal that has no choice in the matter.

Hen decoys may have the same effect by playing on sexual urges as does calling but not nearly as much as male decoys. A hen decoy won't pull a dominant gobbler away from his harem as is often the case when a male decoys are deployed solo with or in tandem with a hen. Your using a visual cue to trigger an instinctual reacting forcing the dominant gobbler to atleast come and investigate and most likely more. In my book that's not hunting. Until the advent and use of these decoys, dominant gobblers were untouchable until late season unless the whole flock came along.

Some refer to decoys in waterfowl hunting as an attempt to justify thier use in turkey hunting. Apples and oranges. Decoys for waterfowl play on the social nature of ducks and geese and the possibility of safety. They have a choice whether on not to join the birds on the water or in the field. The dominant gobbler does not. He must react. It's who he is!

Then there's the dominant gobbler theory. Simply stated, taking a dominant gobbler too early in the breeding cycle messes the works up by prolonging the breeding cycle within the flock causing initial attempts at egg laying to be delayed by the hens that have not bred yet. Causing incubation and polt rearing to be a drawn out affair spreading the hatch over a longer period of time making eggs and polts more vulnerable to predation than if the the incubation/hatch cycle were concentrated into a smaller window of time. If all the eggs get put on the ground around the same time the predators will only be able to eat so many eggs/polts before they are large enough to better avoid predation. Draw this period of incubation and initial polt rearing out over an extended period of time allows predators access to more. Example, A raccoon with a belly full of eggs isn't going looking for more eggs to to eat. When he gets hungry he'll look for more eggs. If the period of time when eggs are available to him is prolonged he'll be able to eat more eggs.

Horse hockey is the reply to this theory by some. Hen turkey breed with whatever ever males are available. My question to them is " why then all this pecking order stuff every day of the year if not to establish a hierarchy in the breeding structure of the flock?

There's no scientific data at this point to dispell or confirm the feasibility of the dominant gobbler theory but it makes sense to me.

That's my opinion on the the matter. Your more than welcome to use decoys when and where you choose if it's legal but I don't have to condon or like your use of them and when the subject is brought up I have no qualms about stating my position on their use whether you like it or not.

As far as reaping goes, my opinion above stands the same with an addition leaning towards the possible ignorance of those deploying the tactic in certain situations.

[mookyj]

...Is it (demonstrably and significantly) safe...or conversely, unsafe?  (a subjective question until statistically supported one way or the other)....

...As for the safety issue, I don't want to sound like I discount it, but I am somewhat of a "show me the money" guy in that I want ("require" is a better term) factual support for taking any position on that particular matter.  At this point in time, I just don't see it.  There are a LOT of things we do in our lives that are a lot more dangerous than any sort of tactic any of us might use in hunting turkeys.

Given the propensity of news media to underreport any substantive facts other than the hunter was shot and whatever medical resources are brought to bear, or report nothing more than a paragraph, and defaults to describing it as an accident. I follow these stories for years now, and the follow-ups are dismal for any further explanations unless a trial ensues and a verdict is reached. Unless one has access to the law enforcement databases you have to foil everything to learn anything further regarding the event. The privacy laws and restrictions before trial render "show me the money" as a lame and moot position. I don't intend to be snarky in saying this. But it is frustrating to read this in a vacuum of willful ignorance. Wildlife agencies and law enforcement are not tough on these events as they are seldom prosecuted with the victim's interest in mind.  There are still a few fanning/reaping events actually described if you bother to google it. Bother to look...

[GobbleNut]

...Is it (demonstrably and significantly) safe...or conversely, unsafe?  (a subjective question until statistically supported one way or the other)....

...As for the safety issue, I don't want to sound like I discount it, but I am somewhat of a "show me the money" guy in that I want ("require" is a better term) factual support for taking any position on that particular matter.  At this point in time, I just don't see it.  There are a LOT of things we do in our lives that are a lot more dangerous than any sort of tactic any of us might use in hunting turkeys.

The privacy laws and restrictions before trial render "show me the money" as a lame and moot position. I don't intend to be snarky in saying this. But it is frustrating to read this in a vacuum of willful ignorance.   There are still a few fanning/reaping events actually described if you bother to google it. Bother to look...

I will preface this rebuttal by stating that I, too, am not trying to be snarky...just stating my opinion based on my observations and research. 

I took your advice and "Googled it" again, as it has been a while since the last time I did it.  I must assume my Google is different from your Google (living out here in the wild west makes anything possible, I suppose) since I perused quite a number of pages looking objectively for any support for the possibility that I am being willfully ignorant in my stance that, as of now, fanning and/or reaping have not been shown to be any more dangerous than other activities associated with turkey hunting accidents.  From my cursory inspection of those pages of reports on turkey hunting accidents, reaping/fanning fell far behind other causes such as mistaken for game (not reaping/fanning related) and accidental discharge of firearms accidents. 

I must also assume from your comments that you possibly believe there is a nefarious conspiracy by law enforcement, authorities, and/or wildlife agencies to intentionally not report, or otherwise cover up, turkey hunting accidents involving fanning/reaping while, on the other hand, there are all sorts of other hunting accident reports on Google.  Perhaps all of these agencies are in cahoots with the makers of all the reaping/fanning/decoy equipment and aids on the market because preserving their product sales is way more important than saving the lives of the supposed myriad hunters that theoretically have been shot while taking part in this practice...and that have supposedly not been reported.  Simply put, if there was any significant correlation between turkey hunting accidents and reaping/fanning, we would most certainly have seen actions taken to stop the practice by now.  In addition, if and when such a correlation is shown, I will be the first to run up the red flag.

And finally, I am not here to defend reaping/fanning.  I would like to see the practice eliminated because I believe turkey gobblers are too susceptible to it, may result in the overharvest of our gobbler populations, and is very questionable in terms of whether it constitutes fair chase...not to mention the possibility that the practice has resulted in an overall reduction of hunting opportunity in many places.  I repeat, if you want me to jump on board the "let's outlaw reaping/fanning because it is too unsafe" train, you STILL have to show this old boy the hard evidence to support your position.  I most certainly did not find it in my Google search. 

...On the other hand, if you want to eliminate the practice based on the concept of fair chase and possibly jeopardizing turkey populations, I am totally on board. 

[joey46]

After reading some of the most recent post I have drafted the following letter to the Florida Wildlife Commission (FWC).  I will await comments from this group of opinionated hunters before hitting the send button:

Dear FWC,

After being thoroughly educated on proper behavior by the Turkey Psychologists on the Old Gobbler forum I have no choice, in good conscience, to request the removal of my name and 2008 Osceola entry from the Florida Outstanding Gobbler list.  It currently stands at number 133.  Little did I know that even with getting up at 2am, walking through the dark into a deep cypress swamp, setting up behind a piece of camo netting (gasp), and calling to this bird for at least an hour his fate was sealed only because we used decoys.  I now feel like we poached him.  No other factors should be considered regarding this bird's demise. I could not be more embarrassed. 
I have hunted these wild turkeys since the late 1970s and my unofficial log and beard box shows my lifetime total at well over a 100 birds from multiple states.  I will attempt to purge my records and eliminate any birds from this count where I'm certain we had used decoys, camo netting, TSS loads or viewed them previously on a game camera.  I do often use an original tube call personally sold to me by Harold Knight in his Cadiz KY barbershop but I think that is still acceptable behavior. Thank heavens we never reaped or I would stick my head in the oven or take up reaping to get the same result.  I will also attempt to forget any tips I learned from social media even it requires hypnosis. After all fair is fair. 
Thank you for your consideration of this request.

Sincerely,

me

Should I hit send??
(note - no mention of not being snarky - we're well past snarky)

[mookyj]

You mention assuming...  as a conspiracy was not mentioned and I 'assume' you did this to deflate as a arguing tactic.

There are websites set up by anti-hunters that list as many mishaps we hunters have in order to make us look bad. Maybe your Google skills could find that? I have run into plenty of doubting Thomas's such as you in the past. If you can't or won't take up the time to properly research the topic, then willful ignorance is what suits you. Most never put forth the effort to look past what suits their premise or stop at the first instance it agrees with their thinking. You'll enjoy my book "Reapercide" coming out after I get the current queue cleared. Maybe then, your "Google" will find something.

Maybe I could hire you to lure in big bucks after buying you a generous life insurance policy to wear a deer suit and sport a set of booners this fall for the opening day of deer season? It is an exacting parallel and just as lacking in any concern for safety.

I have had turkey hunters come up to me while I was a state chapter president at NWTF conventions with large envelopes, filled with a photo(s) and copies of reports, that I could not find on the web, their stories did not exist on the internet, making it impossible to find any depositions or followups to stories even while having more info to narrow searches, and that goes way back to 1999. there's been eight of those that they wanted someone to know it actually happened. What you will find are summarized reports calling it an accident, and sometimes they mention stalking or decoys, with no detail whatsoever. No conspiracy just underreported. Nice try...

I hope you learn to take up comprehensive reading as if I wished to put it forth as such that it is a conspiracy I would have done so. I sure would have written it far differently. No between the lines to read.  I find it rather odd your "research" failed to bring up any report. Yet I have cited them in my blog postings. I do stand behind "show me the money" is lame and intellectually lazy. HIPAA laws, pending litigation forbids the release of the very information we want to know.  If you can't grasp that, can't help you, no further discussion will be fruitful. Small hint- set up your Google search to send reports based on keywords. If you had/have a genuine intent to learn, you might find this helpful...

...Is it (demonstrably and significantly) safe...or conversely, unsafe?  (a subjective question until statistically supported one way or the other)....

...As for the safety issue, I don't want to sound like I discount it, but I am somewhat of a "show me the money" guy in that I want ("require" is a better term) factual support for taking any position on that particular matter.  At this point in time, I just don't see it.  There are a LOT of things we do in our lives that are a lot more dangerous than any sort of tactic any of us might use in hunting turkeys.

The privacy laws and restrictions before trial render "show me the money" as a lame and moot position. I don't intend to be snarky in saying this. But it is frustrating to read this in a vacuum of willful ignorance.   There are still a few fanning/reaping events actually described if you bother to google it. Bother to look...

I will preface this rebuttal by stating that I, too, am not trying to be snarky...just stating my opinion based on my observations and research. 

I took your advice and "Googled it" again, as it has been a while since the last time I did it.  I must assume my Google is different from your Google (living out here in the wild west makes anything possible, I suppose) since I perused quite a number of pages looking objectively for any support for the possibility that I am being willfully ignorant in my stance that, as of now, fanning and/or reaping have not been shown to be any more dangerous than other activities associated with turkey hunting accidents.  From my cursory inspection of those pages of reports on turkey hunting accidents, reaping/fanning fell far behind other causes such as mistaken for game (not reaping/fanning related) and accidental discharge of firearms accidents. 

I must also assume from your comments that you possibly believe there is a nefarious conspiracy by law enforcement, authorities, and/or wildlife agencies to intentionally not report, or otherwise cover up, turkey hunting accidents involving fanning/reaping while, on the other hand, there are all sorts of other hunting accident reports on Google.  Perhaps all of these agencies are in cahoots with the makers of all the reaping/fanning/decoy equipment and aids on the market because preserving their product sales is way more important than saving the lives of the supposed myriad hunters that theoretically have been shot while taking part in this practice...and that have supposedly not been reported.  Simply put, if there was any significant correlation between turkey hunting accidents and reaping/fanning, we would most certainly have seen actions taken to stop the practice by now.  In addition, if and when such a correlation is shown, I will be the first to run up the red flag.

And finally, I am not here to defend reaping/fanning.  I would like to see the practice eliminated because I believe turkey gobblers are too susceptible to it, may result in the overharvest of our gobbler populations, and is very questionable in terms of whether it constitutes fair chase...not to mention the possibility that the practice has resulted in an overall reduction of hunting opportunity in many places.  I repeat, if you want me to jump on board the "let's outlaw reaping/fanning because it is too unsafe" train, you STILL have to show this old boy the hard evidence to support your position.  I most certainly did not find it in my Google search. 

...On the other hand, if you want to eliminate the practice based on the concept of fair chase and possibly jeopardizing turkey populations, I am totally on board. 

[eggshell]

As far as accident causes go, I know Ohio records all  accidents that are reported and all of those are investigated. In most every case the shooter is cited. A simple records request would get this data. When I was working we got a season summary news release and it would include the number of accidents and if any were fatal. Most news media outlets never reported it. I don't know if this is still done. I do know accidents were on a decline. Most common cause I knew of was mistaken for game and usually calling and movement were involved. Failure to properly identify game was what was the mistake in most. Some were simply unsafe firearms handling and accidental discharge. Decoys were involved in many of them, but it wasn't a statistical significant factor. I do not oppose decoys or many of the many disputed methods. I agree with Gobblenut that reaping seems wrong on a biological stance but has not proven to be a significant cause of accidents. Maybe this is because those using it are keenly aware of the risk and actually make more effort to do it more carefully. At the end of the day, we as hunters bear all the responsibility to be sure of what we are shooting. I think hunter safety training has greatly reduced hunting accidents.

As far as this forum goes, we are just a small group of hunters and more like a deer camp than anything representative of the hunting public as a whole. We do not even make the cut when applied to the rest of licensed turkey hunters. Of all the turkey hunters I know I am the odd duck and not the norm. Almost all them use decoys, blinds, cameras and the most modern loads. I have no qualm with any of them and I will hunt with those close to me. If they want to take decoys along I will never say no, but they know I don't like to use them so they normally don't take them, but if they do I will be ok with it. If we get birds into decoys it's their shot and they are welcome to take the bird and I will do the dance with them. I personally have never shot a bird over a decoy and since we're using numbers, that's 200+ birds. I like the discussion as it expands my knowledge base and I find it as a form of comradery and friendship. I am sorry that it has become offensive and contentious. Perhaps we are harming the forum's ability to appeal to the masses and common turkey hunter, but I don't think so. I have seen what happens on the unmonitored or poorly monitored forums and it gets ugly fast. My appeal is to step back take a breath and lets all be brothers and friends. I have difference of opinions with all my friends, but I still love and care for everyone of them. I have the same feelings for the friends here.

The OP posed the original question; Closet Reaper? and asked a review of a video on reaping
I am going to make the assumption he was asking if maybe in the right time and place and with personal privacy that if we'd secretly consider using the tactic. I will go on record as saying no for myself.  I have witnessed it and I decided it was unfair to the birds. Just my opinion. I have hunted with guys carrying fans and I make it clear I am sitting back and not participating if they pull it out, but I do not tell them they can't do it. I also believe many hunters would us it if they had a chance to do it privately and secretly, this is just human nature. I have done many things in my life I am not proud of and I suspect we all have. Principle is something developed not inherent, we're all working on it.

[jhoward11]

I would add "You (Reap) what you sow". I understand it's legal, but is it the smartest thing to do? Would not do it myself or especially with a kid for the safety aspect. If you taught a kid to hunt like this (knowing how dangerous it could be) and next season he was shot and killed doing what you taught him. Good luck living with that. NO THANK YOU!!!