hey guys
getting more into patterning and learning my gun. ive already paired a choke with a load but didn't pay much attention to my poa vs poi.
what's the best way to test the poa vs poi. will every load have a different poi?
and what is the best way to eliminate shooter error, or is the point to keep your errors so you know how to correct them ( jerks, pulls, etc.)
thanks
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I don't do much pattern testing but I can tell you that poi vs poa is ever changing. Even in a vise shooting the same load from the same lot number your poi will very some with just the weather. Air temp wind humidity all effect poi to some degree. Most guys that count holes just shoot big paper and draw circles around the densits part of the pattern regardless of poi. Just my 2 cents and it's probably not worth that.
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alot will affected this. Now bigger bore will walk some with smaller payload. OVER choke a gun it will walk all over. Heat in the barrel will make it change also. Moisture in barrel will affect it. Now it is a shot gun and we have spend thousands of hours trying to figure them out. Our target guns we have got to be able to stay with in a 1/2 inch at 58 to 60 feet with dove loads. I can tell you it hard to do.
Now take junk dove load shoot 50 feet see if it high low left right. Then aim to the point you need to at 40 and test all loads. Once you find the load you want go to the next choke if needed and repeat. After you figure choke shell you like then worry about fine tuning the guns poa/poi :z-twocents:
An optic ( Red dot, scope ) can be your best friend. If you`re not handy, a most any gunsmith can help with mounting a rail and the optic. Do some fun research on chokes and loads, pick one or two of each and head for a patterning board. Plenty of directions and advice on how to do it. The adjustable optic will take care of any POA/POI variations as soon as you are " on the paper " with your chosen turkey load. Nothing like a good red dot for peace of mind!
Never had patterns move around till I started experimenting with Long beards. What caused that I dont know.
I shoot at about a 3 inch circle to test POI. I shoot up close at say 13-14 yards. I use a bead, I dont like other sights on a shotgun.
Every load won't shoot to a different POI but alot of them will. If you change any variable the POI is subject to change. It's common that a shotgun will shoot 3 inch shells to a different POI than 3 1/2 inch shells even with the same type shell. It's fairly common to shoot different shot sizes to different POI. If you change your choke POI is likely to change with some loads.
On shooter error, if you think you may have pulled the shot just shoot again. You might pull off one shot but it's not likely that you will pull off 3 or 5 shots in a row to the same place. I don't bother with a rest or a vice. I shoot sitting down like I would shoot a turkey while hunting.
I've commonly seen Flite Control loads by Federal to shoot slightly high compared to other lead loads in the same gun/barrel/choke.
On Longbeards, I have never seen them "walk" over the paper, mine have been real consistent in multiple guns. I have seen some ragged looking patterns from them and patterns that looked like they had been cut in half or something in SOME guns. One thing about Longbeards, any slight variance between POI and POA is magnified with them because they shoot so tight. What I have seen in SOME but not all guns is a tendency for Longbeards to shoot to a WAY different POI compared to other lead loads with no other variable (same gun, choke, barrel).
I think there will always be some slight variation within any load that you cannot control when it comes to POI. Probably depends how the wad opens, again SLIGHT. Much more significant for target shooters than hunters, especially still target turkey shoots.
I always shot a round at close range with the choke and shell I'd hunt with. With the pattern so tight you can easily see if you hit were the sight was pointed. If after moving back to 40 yards your pattern not only opens up but the center of the pattern has moved left or right something else is wrong. Same with pattern moving around. I've never seen that. I'd stop using that choke, shell or whole gun if I couldn't get it to hit were I pointed it.
Your goal is to evaluate a given load/choke by eliminating as many variables as possible which could skew results. The only way to do this is to use a rest, shoot at measured ranges, insure that the gun's barrel is cleaned identically between shots, the ammunition evaluated is from the same batch (lot #'s), and the environmental parameters, ie., temperature, wind, humidity are maintained to be the same, or as close as possible, during all testing. Attempting to evaluate by shooting off-hand is a recipe for disaster since shooter fatigue becomes more of an issue which impacts POA/POI. Shooter fatigue manifest itself not only in the arms, back and hands, but also in the shooters vision which is deleteriously impacted with multiple shots. You should think about sighting in a turkey gun (especially when utilizing TSS or LB shells) much like sighting in a rifle w/ a given load, but with the ability to change a very important parameter, the choke constriction. You can't properly evaluate different chokes ie., constriction, manufacturer, design unless you maintain all of the pattern testing parameters w/ a minimum of variables.
Most generally it's the choke or shell,but some guns are more prone to being finicky.
I do as others have said and that's shoot dove loads up close instead of wasting expensive shells at first. I do use a gun rest and gun cradle to help eliminate some human error.
I've found changing shells or the choke can help sometimes. I have a box of chokes from trying to get finicky guns to shoot straight.
I really don't want a gun even if I put some type of optic on it that doesn't shoot poa/poi..
Good posts in this thread. Yep, there is some SLIGHT variation in even the best shot-choke-gun combinations. GENERALLY, Mossy 835 was known for good patterns, as were invector plus barrels in Browning with the right choke.
Actually, you can start shooting with a "deep cleaned" barrel and shoot several shots letting the barrel cool completely between shots. You will see patterns degrade, and maybe even get better. My Browning pump patterns Heavyshot #6 best on the Third consecutive shot before continuing to degrade!!!
Proper gun fit has a large affect on poa/poi. shotguns are designed to fit the average sized man, get very far from that size and your gun is not technically pointed where you are looking!