Turkey hunting forum for turkey hunting tips

What makes TSS 9 shot effective?
It is no heavier than lead 7 1/2 . So same pellet count.
Could being heavier and so small allow it to keep its velocity higher down range ?
Does any shot harder than the bones you are trying break increase its effectiveness?
What do you all think?

Because of the weight to surface ratio, it penetrates further than lead of similar shot size.

I bet if you had 1oz. 7.5 and 1oz. 9 there would BE more pellets in 9 TSS ,lead or whatever

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Quote from: fallhnt on February 18, 2018, 11:29:39 PM
I bet if you had 1oz. 7.5 and 1oz. 9 there would BE more pellets in 9 TSS ,lead or whatever

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Yes about a dozen more tss 9's per ounce than 7 1/2 lead at 350 an ounce according to charts I have seen. So TSS 9's are about the same weight as lead 7 1/2. TSS 9's are just a touch lighter.

Smaller diameter means less drag or friction so it retains velocity better. Smaller diameter also means it will penetrate deeper. Now there is relationship of damage caused by larger wound channel but this could be offset by deeper penetration. Not smart enough to quantify that.

don't have an answer for that but I can say they hit like a bus and are stone dead killers. Patterns are out of thi world. The only thing I can say is in speculation , that the density and weight is the reason.

I bought two boxes of the 3" #9  Federal at the Convention.  I don't want to shoot too much, but what are the recommendations on a choke to use in a Remington 870 supermag? 

This will be my third year handloading TSS 9s for my 20. Two of these birds were killed by a buddy shooting 9s. The shots were 10-12 yards to 40 or so yards. I will stick with the 9s!

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Size to weight ratio is key, as well as the fact the hard shot does not deform at all I believe it keeps fliers to a minimum. I was 7 for 7 last year with 9.5s, 15 to 35 yards.

The patterns these things throw are simply amazing, better than any 12ga hevi shot patterns I ever had. 

What makes TSS 9 shot effective?
Density and pellet count.

It is no heavier than lead 7 1/2 . So same pellet count.
Don't look too much into how heavy an individual pellet is. Hardness is the key. The hardness from its higher density combined with its smaller surface area is what allows it to penetrate better than lead that is bigger/weighs more than it.

Could being heavier and so small allow it to keep its velocity higher down range ?
I've heard TSS will maintain better velocity down range because of it having less surface area and higher density but I don't know the numbers or formulas to verify this, makes sense though.

Does any shot harder than the bones you are trying break increase its effectiveness?
Absolutely. The easier it is for a individual pellet to break a bone the better.

 DavisD9 that last bird head blowed up like balloon great results you had with some of your own loads thanks for posting.

I'm shooting #9s and when my order from nitro comes in I have some 8x9s coming.

3 guns this spring running TSS in

BPS 12ga Indian Creek 2.25oz 3in #9s
Remington 870 youth TruLock #7 1 5/8oz Nitro #9s or 8x9s
Winchester sx3 .565 mad max Apex 1 5/8oz #9s

All 3 have proven 40yd killers with hevishot. This spring I'm looking to add TSS the table, if anyone I take hunting or does hunt with me they'll have TSS in chamber ready to roar.

If you throw a baseball 90 mph and throw a basketball also 90 mph which one will travel farthest? Which one would you rather be hit with at 40 yards? This is the same concept.

Quote from: owlhoot on February 18, 2018, 09:29:13 PM
What makes TSS 9 shot effective?
It is no heavier than lead 7 1/2 . So same pellet count.
Could being heavier and so small allow it to keep its velocity higher down range ?
Does any shot harder than the bones you are trying break increase its effectiveness?
What do you all think?

actually many gel tests show it penetrates better than lead 5s at 40 yards so WAY better! They retain their down range velocity WAY better, that coupled with a smaller diameter yields much better penetration. In fact, a few friends of mine have shot 9s at turkeys at 35 yards and the pellets which hit the body did FULL pass throughs or were just under the skin on the opposite side of the turkey. No way lead is doing that.

Quote from: drenalinld on February 19, 2018, 12:22:08 PM
If you throw a baseball 90 mph and throw a basketball also 90 mph which one will travel farthest? Which one would you rather be hit with at 40 yards? This is the same concept.

pretty good analogy

I could try to explain it but with out explanation the stuff kills better and farther than anything else I've seen. 

Quote from: drenalinld on February 19, 2018, 12:22:08 PM
If you throw a baseball 90 mph and throw a basketball also 90 mph which one will travel farthest? Which one would you rather be hit with at 40 yards? This is the same concept.

Pretty lousy analogy actually.
Considering they are both falling to Earth at 9.8 m/s/s, they will travel exactly the same distance before they hit the ground.
Why not make it even more ridiculous and say which one would you rather get hit with, a shot put or a styrofoam ball?

Quote from: Number17 on February 19, 2018, 11:16:50 PM

Quote from: drenalinld on February 19, 2018, 12:22:08 PM
If you throw a baseball 90 mph and throw a basketball also 90 mph which one will travel farthest? Which one would you rather be hit with at 40 yards? This is the same concept.

Pretty lousy analogy actually.
Considering they are both falling to Earth at 9.8 m/s/s, they will travel exactly the same distance before they hit the ground.
Why not make it even more ridiculous and say which one would you rather get hit with, a shot put or a styrofoam ball?

This is NOT true. In a vacuum yes. But our world is not a vacuum and objects have resistance in the form of air. Thus the basketball and baseball will NOT travel the same distance before they hit the ground. The basketball will land first due to the greater resistance it encounters from the air due to its larger size. The same holds true for the smaller and denser TSS vs larger and less dense lead. Thus, the basketball and baseball analogy is a very good one.

You are wrong number17. The basketball will slow down much faster. It's a great analogy. You need to brush up on sports and physics. They will hit earth at same time if thrown at same time at same launch angle but baseball will retain velocity better and travel farther in same amount of time. Actually a foam or wiffle ball does expand same analogy. Launched at same velocity and angle as baseball will not travel nearly as far. Slows down quicker because of lower density.

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Quote from: Number17 on February 19, 2018, 11:16:50 PM

Quote from: drenalinld on February 19, 2018, 12:22:08 PM
If you throw a baseball 90 mph and throw a basketball also 90 mph which one will travel farthest? Which one would you rather be hit with at 40 yards? This is the same concept.

Pretty lousy analogy actually.
Considering they are both falling to Earth at 9.8 m/s/s, they will travel exactly the same distance before they hit the ground.
Why not make it even more ridiculous and say which one would you rather get hit with, a shot put or a styrofoam ball?

I want to see you throw a basketball from center field to home plate


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The aerodynamics of both balls are so similar that wind resistance will have very little effect on which one retains its velocity better. There is a term in the scientific principle they call "significant difference". If a factor or conclusion is below a certain threshold it is not even considered in the equation.

A baseball weighs 5 ounces. A basketball weighs 22 ounces.

With nearly 4.5 times the mass of its counterpart, yet launched at the same velocity, the basketball isn't just going to flop to the ground.

The initial momentum for the baseball is 450 Oz*m/hr
The initial momentum for the B-ball is     1980 Oz*m/hr

The initial kinetic energy of the baseball is  113.29 Joules
The initial kinetic energy of the B-ball is     501.72 Joules.



Everyone compares #9 TSS to #5 Lead.
A single pellet of #9 TSS weighs     1/362th of an ounce
A single pellet of #5 Lead weighs    1/173rd of an ounce

So the Lead #5 pellet weighs about 2x what the TSS #9 pellet weighs.

Comparing Lead #2 to TSS #9 (4.5X mass) is closer to basketballs to baseballs, but it is still a very poor analogy and quiet misleading.
Compare a major league baseball to a fast pitch softball...........then you are getting a little closer to reality.

Wow. bottom line is TSS is harder , faster , retains more velocity and energy than any other turkey load. No sense in over thinking it , its just a fact.

Quote from: Number17 on February 19, 2018, 11:16:50 PM

Quote from: drenalinld on February 19, 2018, 12:22:08 PM
If you throw a baseball 90 mph and throw a basketball also 90 mph which one will travel farthest? Which one would you rather be hit with at 40 yards? This is the same concept.

Pretty lousy analogy actually.
Considering they are both falling to Earth at 9.8 m/s/s, they will travel exactly the same distance before they hit the ground.
Why not make it even more ridiculous and say which one would you rather get hit with, a shot put or a styrofoam ball?

He never said which you'd rather dropped on you. He said which would you rather thrown at you!


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Baseball vs basketball is an exaggeration but not because of size difference. As stated a baseball weighs 5 oz and a basketball weighs 22 oz. The baseball has app. 13 cu in volume and the basketball app. 450 cu in. Comparing densities, the baseball would be about 0.38 oz/cu in and the basketball 0.049 oz/cu in. Baseball has greater density by almost a factor of 10. The TSS is just over 1.5x more dense than lead so it is and exaggeration but my point that the more dense sphere will retain velocity better is valid and significant. The similar shaped objects will perform similarly if dropped from the sky as long as density is above a threshold excluding surface friction differences. Not true of projectiles launched opposing gravity. Confident you understand it plenty well but thought my comparison was exaggerated.

What I like about TSS is the pattern density and evenness of the pattern downrange. No turkey is escaping due to a hole in the pattern.

I get that TSS patterns really well and is denser than lead. But I keep reading were people compare the 9s or 8s to lead 5s or 4s density and weight are two separate things. TSS 9s are nowhere near as heavy as a lead 5. Clearly there are more of the 9s but each 9 is a lot lighter than each 5.

Quote from: drenalinld on February 20, 2018, 09:14:10 AM
Baseball vs basketball is an exaggeration but not because of size difference. As stated a baseball weighs 5 oz and a basketball weighs 22 oz. The baseball has app. 13 cu in volume and the basketball app. 450 cu in. Comparing densities, the baseball would be about 0.38 oz/cu in and the basketball 0.049 oz/cu in. Baseball has greater density by almost a factor of 10. The TSS is just over 1.5x more dense than lead so it is and exaggeration but my point that the more dense sphere will retain velocity better is valid and significant. The similar shaped objects will perform similarly if dropped from the sky as long as density is above a threshold excluding surface friction differences. Not true of projectiles launched opposing gravity. Confident you understand it plenty well but thought my comparison was exaggerated.

Agreed.

Choosing to get hit in the head with a baseball or a softball at 90mph.........eh, take your pick.....they are both going to knock you out cold.
Now, having your choice between 30 baseballs or 10 softballs thrown at you at once?........I'll take my chances with the softballs everytime.
I believe that is the true value of TSS.

On the 9's vs 5's, would it be safe to say that tss seems to have 80-100% more hits in your circle than lead 5 patterns. So, if two 9 tss pellets hit in the same general area as one 5, wouldn't the energy be the same?  I'm not nearly as smart as some of the fellers up there ^^^ posting above me though.

I think it's pretty safe to say that a single #5 Lead carries at least twice the energy of a single #9 for our intents and purposes.
However, that single #9 carries its energy in a much more compact and harder package, so it will penetrate soft tissue better.
According to penetration tests, the #5 lead and #9 TSS have similar penetration depth at given yardage.
The lead is still carrying more energy (knockdown power), but that's rarely relevant in turkey hunting.

So it's not the amount of energy you are looking for downrange, but the number of lethal hits. And the TSS is giving you around twice the number of lethal hits for the same amount of energy.

With that being said, I'm still going to be packing Longbeard #5s in my 12G 870 this year. The last 8 times I pulled the trigger have resulted in a dead Tom.

Fired at the same velocity there is never a time a lead 5 penetrates as deep as a TSS 9 in any medium.


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Quote from: drenalinld on February 21, 2018, 08:11:05 AM
Fired at the same velocity there is never a time a lead 5 penetrates as deep as a TSS 9 in any medium.


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Seems to be a lot of talk about velocity being a factor here?

Very simple physics formula: F=M*A. Force is equal to mass times acceleration. some people are confusing others who do not understand the coefficient of friction due to mass or the effects of constant temperature changes on a body, (thermodynamics), statics and dynamics of a body at rest and in motion. All these and other laws of physics apply to just the pellet not taking into consideration the wad design or powder concentrations and effects. Then we have the choke tubes to think about. Then the barrel, forcing cone length and etc. Think simple and let the targets show you the light.

My humble but educated thoughts:


1:  Let's compare TSS and lead of the same size, #9 for example.  We know TSS has a higher density than lead (18g/cc vs 11.3g/cc). Mass = density X volume.  So for shot pellets of the same size (volume), TSS will have more mass, because it is more dense.

2:  Everyone knows E=MCsquared.  So an object with more mass is going to have more energy.  Similarly, in the calculation of kinetic energy for an object in motion (KE= 1/2 mass X velocity squared), an item with more mass will have more kinetic energy given that the velocity is the same for each moving object.

3:  So you can see that it's the density, mass, and therefore energy that is higher in TSS than corresponding lead of the same size.  Now as you increase the size of lead shot, the volume of lead will increase, thereby increasing its mass and energy.  At some point of increasing the size of lead shot it will be somewhat equivalent to the mass and energy of the smaller size TSS (I've read varying reports...#5 or 6 lead roughly equivalent to #9 TSS, not sure what is correct.) But...

4:  That also means if you want to use larger sized lead in order to have the same energy as smaller TSS, you won't have as many pellets!  For example lead #6 is 222/oz, whereas TSS #9 is 362/oz. So in this comparison, a 2 oz load of TSS #9 would have 280 more pellets than a 2 oz load of lead #6.  You might have equivalent mass and energy per pellet, but a lot more pellets with TSS.  This is one of the advantages of TSS; more shot downrange creating a thicker pattern.

5:  Also, don't forget density.  Even if a larger lead shot (like #5 or 6) could have similar mass and energy as smaller TSS (like #9), it won't be as dense!  The denser TSS won't deform like lead.

6:  Last, penetration.  In general two items with similar energy and velocity, the smaller item penetrates further. One of the big considerations in a bullets maximum penetration is its ability to resist deformation.  NOT the same comparing bullets to shot, but still, denser shot size resisting deformation should penetrate further, given other variables are the same.

So basically because of the higher density, corresponding mass and energy, a smaller size TSS shot is as effective or more than a larger sized lead shot, while also allowing the use of more pellets....of which won't deform as easy, provide a better pattern, and penetrate better.

If mass is the same then the # pellets/oz will be the same. 5 or 6 lead matches TSS 9's in downrange energy at say 40ish yards. Pellet to pellet mass is not equal.


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Simply Einstein's theory of relativity

Quote from: drenalinld on February 21, 2018, 08:11:05 AM
Fired at the same velocity there is never a time a lead 5 penetrates as deep as a TSS 9 in any medium.


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False.

So E=MC^2 is not Einstein's theory of relativity?

I think there are a lot of people who want to argue the discrepancies of tss who have no real world experience with it.  Personally I've killed over a dozen birds with it and saw a few more die.  I have my opinion and that is the only way any other shot is superior I'd in cost.

I don't understand a lot of these scientific explanations, as they are over my head. I did, however, agree with and think the baseball/basketball analogy made sense.  Nonetheless, if the weather holds, i plan to shoot a lead 5, HW7, and federal TSS9 from my 20ga this weekend.  I have some identical books, each containing over 1,000 pages.  Going to shoot at 3 books and see how many pages each shot penetrates, for what it's worth.  For my simple mind, the one with the most energy will penetrate the most pages, and the one i will likely hunt with

Quote from: Gooserbat on February 21, 2018, 08:25:00 PM
I think there are a lot of people who want to argue the discrepancies of tss who have no real world experience with it.  Personally I've killed over a dozen birds with it and saw a few more die.  I have my opinion and that is the only way any other shot is superior I'd in cost.

I share opinions.


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Quote from: OldSwamper on February 21, 2018, 08:39:37 PM
I don't understand a lot of these scientific explanations, as they are over my head. I did, however, agree with and think the baseball/basketball analogy made sense.  Nonetheless, if the weather holds, i plan to shoot a lead 5, HW7, and federal TSS9 from my 20ga this weekend.  I have some identical books, each containing over 1,000 pages.  Going to shoot at 3 books and see how many pages each shot penetrates, for what it's worth.  For my simple mind, the one with the most energy will penetrate the most pages, and the one i will likely hunt with

Make sure the books are wet. It will yield more accurate results, or so I've read.

Quote from: dwcim on February 21, 2018, 08:14:35 PM
So E=MC^2 is not Einstein's theory of relativity?

The atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima produced 21 Kilotons of energy.

According to Albert's theory of relativity, at 190lb body mass, I am the equivalent of 1.86 million Kilotons of energy.

Hopefully that's enough to kill a turkey this Spring.

You must be an Engineer, quantum physicist or mathematician with your vast knowledge of scientific diversities and analogies. I am just a poor, dumb hillbilly who wants to try to kill a turkey.

Quote from: dwcim on February 22, 2018, 10:55:18 AM
You must be an Engineer, quantum physicist or mathematician with your vast knowledge of scientific diversities and analogies. I am just a poor, dumb hillbilly who wants to try to kill a turkey.

Yeah, but he never mentioned the Higgs boson.  Sheesh...

This is a good argument lol a number 5 longbeard with the right choke will kill 10/10 birds at 50 yds why pay 7-9 bucks a shell if your only judging 40 yd performance? What is the exact density comparison for lead pellet size in equivalence to a tss #9?

Quote from: Johnnemily on February 22, 2018, 12:06:44 PM
This is a good argument lol a number 5 longbeard with the right choke will kill 10/10 birds at 50 yds why pay 7-9 bucks a shell if your only judging 40 yd performance? What is the exact density comparison for lead pellet size in equivalence to a tss #9?

This is my take on it as well. The juice isn't worth the squeeze, but I can see its use in small gauge guns to make them more effective at normal turkey hunting ranges.

Quote from: dwcim on February 22, 2018, 10:55:18 AM
You must be an Engineer, quantum physicist or mathematician with your vast knowledge of scientific diversities and analogies. I am just a poor, dumb hillbilly who wants to try to kill a turkey.

Engineer or physicist? Now a days even a Horseshoer has to know the basics of  (KE=1/2 mass X velocity squared)

Thanks to the internet, customers are more educated, now each hoof has to hit the ground with the exact same amount of (kilotons of energy)
The old "Clippity Klopp" you used to hear when a horse went down the road is unacceptable.
Now it's "Clippity Clippity" all 4 equal mass and density, not hard to do if you apply the E=MC^2 formula

Quote from: Rapscallion Vermilion on February 22, 2018, 11:24:41 AM

Quote from: dwcim on February 22, 2018, 10:55:18 AM
You must be an Engineer, quantum physicist or mathematician with your vast knowledge of scientific diversities and analogies. I am just a poor, dumb hillbilly who wants to try to kill a turkey.

Yeah, but he never mentioned the Higgs boson.  Sheesh...

Dang I must have have drank to much MOUNTAIN DEW !

Quote from: Number17 on February 20, 2018, 08:19:29 AM
The aerodynamics of both balls are so similar that wind resistance will have very little effect on which one retains its velocity better. There is a term in the scientific principle they call "significant difference". If a factor or conclusion is below a certain threshold it is not even considered in the equation.

A baseball weighs 5 ounces. A basketball weighs 22 ounces.

With nearly 4.5 times the mass of its counterpart, yet launched at the same velocity, the basketball isn't just going to flop to the ground.

The initial momentum for the baseball is 450 Oz*m/hr
The initial momentum for the B-ball is     1980 Oz*m/hr

The initial kinetic energy of the baseball is  113.29 Joules
The initial kinetic energy of the B-ball is     501.72 Joules.



Everyone compares #9 TSS to #5 Lead.
A single pellet of #9 TSS weighs     1/362th of an ounce
A single pellet of #5 Lead weighs    1/173rd of an ounce

So the Lead #5 pellet weighs about 2x what the TSS #9 pellet weighs.

Comparing Lead #2 to TSS #9 (4.5X mass) is closer to basketballs to baseballs, but it is still a very poor analogy and quiet misleading.
Compare a major league baseball to a fast pitch softball...........then you are getting a little closer to reality.

:toothy12: :toothy12: :toothy12: That guy!

Guess it's settled. Everything made after lead shot, such as heavi shot, HW, and tss are all gimmicks and making us go backwards in tech.


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I'm not the best at explaining energy and how it relates to penetration.  I mix some of the terms that really arent interchangeable, and may have even done it here (hopefully not). I know it's been done multiple times in the last few pages.

This isn't an attempt to persuade the use of Tungsten Super Shot.  I've just recently purchased some and have previously stayed on the side of "dead is dead" and kept using my old faithful lead.  However, this is a very small/ simple look at why smaller TSS shot out performs larger Lead (Pb) shot.  There is a lot more to this than what I've done, but it should give you some idea of why it works this way.  I'm not beyond needing correction, so have at it.

I've seen charts that show that 18 g/cc tungsten #9 shot out penetrates 11.3g/cc lead #6 shot in ballistic gel.  However, the tiny #9 TSS obviously weighs less than #6 lead (360/ounce vs. 221/ounce).  So why do the lighter weight #9's out penetrate the heavier #6's?  Here are few things to consider.  (If you are concerned with significant figures you may want to look away.)

Lets verify the shot counts:

#9 shot is 2.03 mm diameter, giving a volume of 4.38 mm3 or .00438 cm3

#6 shot is 2.79 mm diameter, giving a volume of 11.37 mm3 or .01137 cm3

Using Volume and Density:

A TSS #9 (18 g/cm3) weighs .07884 grams = .00278 ounces = 1.2167 grains

A Pb #6 (11.3 g/cm3) weighs .12848 grams = .00453 ounces = 1.9827 grains

Number of shot per ounce:

TSS #9 -  1/ .00278 oz = 361/oz

Pb #6 – 1/ .00453 oz = 221/oz

There are a number of things that will affect penetration...........mass, velocity, cross sectional area, surface area, hardness.  The simplest way to determine penetration is to do like most have done and just shoot ballistic gel and measure the results.  There is nothing better than real world results, but the numbers can sometimes clear up some of why that just happened.

Kinetic Energy gets thrown around a lot so let's look at that:

KE = Mass x Velocity squared divided by a Constant.   Mass is in grains, Velocity in fps, and K is 450,435, and KE is in foot pounds

Instead of punching in all the numbers, I used Google, so the numbers could vary a little.

KE of #9 TSS @ 1200 fps = 3.8882 ft lbs

KE of #6 Pb @ 1200 fps = 6.3359 ft lbs

Now consider cross sectional area.

The cross sectional area of a # 9 = 3.24 mm2

The cross sectional area of a #6 = 6.11 mm2

#9 TSS
3.8882/3.24 = 1.20 ftlbs/mm2

#6 Pb
6.3359/6.11 = 1.04 ftlbs/mm2

So we can already see that a TSS #9 has more energy per mm2 than a Pb #6, both traveling at the same velocity.

Someone said before that the difference in wind resistence would be negligible.  I wouldn't say that considering that the cross sectional area of #6 is 89% larger.

Same for the surface area:

The surface area of a #9 shot = 12.95 mm2

The surface area of a #6 shot = 24.45 mm2

Let's assume that the drag forces of air and the object that we are shooting (penetrating) only acts on the front half of the sphere:

#9 shot = 6.475 mm2

#6 shot = 12.225 mm2

So without looking at any other numbers we can see that the TSS #9 has 15% more energy per unit of area than the Pb #6 (1.2 ftlbs/mm2 vs. 1.04 ftlbs/mm2).  We can also see that the Pb #6 has almost 90% more drag forces acting against it than the TSS #9.  More energy and less drag force will yield more penetration.

Another factor that I'm not even capable of calculating is how deformation or shape of the shot affects penetration.  It's my understanding that TSS is "more spherical".  That would increase penetration.  It is also harder, so it would not deform like lead.  Deformation sucks up energy that is used for penetration, so the harder shot would not lose penetration capability due to deformation.

Add all of that to 360 TSS #9's  vs. 221 Pb #6's and there is a clear winner.  However, I agree with many..............dead is dead, so if your lead is getting it done and you don't want to spend the extra cash.

Solid information, Hobbes. The diameter and surface area comparisons are key when looking at velocity retention or lack of. The lead will be much slower at killing ranges because of reasons you point out. As you said, shoot what you like and be happy.


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I pull trigger and gun goes bang.  After that Its over my head.   

This thread has me feeling bad about the money my parents spent on my education.

I will stand by my first post. It kills birds.


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Quote from: guesswho on February 22, 2018, 07:01:25 PM
I pull trigger and gun goes bang.  After that Its over my head.

And if you aimed steady, it's all over old Tom's head, too.

Well Doggies, that's some mighty fine cypherin' there Mr. Hobbes. It makes good sense once it gets all explained. Thank you for that.

So, Hevi shot formulates to somewhere in the middle of those two.  That works for me. I haven't had a gobbler survive the Hevi smackdown I laid on them yet.  Considering that I have about 25+ year's worth of Hevi shot still to spend, I'll just leave the TSS to those who use it.  You're welcome.

Jim

I didn't think to include Hevi in there, but I'd keep shooting it to if I had that much of it.

If I didn't screw something up:


#6 Hevi (12 g/cc and 209/ounce)
1.09 ftlb/mm2
Surface are creating drag = 12.225 mm2

#7 Fed. Heavyweight (15 g/cc and 219/ounce)
1.26 ftlb/mm2
Surface area creating drag = 10.135 mm2

If a guys gonna use a 12 gauge not a whole lot advantage over a heavy load of number 5 or 6 shot

Quote from: Johnnemily on February 22, 2018, 09:00:44 PM
If a guys gonna use a 12 gauge not a whole lot advantage over a heavy load of number 5 or 6 shot

Actually,  as I stated above.  A TSS 9 has 15% more energy per unit of cross sectional area, almost 90% less drag due to surface area, and 140 more pellets per ounce that have proven to pattern better than a #6 lead.  I'd say performance wise that's a whole lot better.  As far as dead turkeys inside 40 yards............no the results will be the same from a good lead load.............dead turkey.

Quote from: hobbes on February 22, 2018, 06:33:12 PM
I'm not the best at explaining energy and how it relates to penetration.  I mix some of the terms that really arent interchangeable, and may have even done it here (hopefully not). I know it's been done multiple times in the last few pages.

This isn't an attempt to persuade the use of Tungsten Super Shot.  I've just recently purchased some and have previously stayed on the side of "dead is dead" and kept using my old faithful lead.  However, this is a very small/ simple look at why smaller TSS shot out performs larger Lead (Pb) shot.  There is a lot more to this than what I've done, but it should give you some idea of why it works this way.  I'm not beyond needing correction, so have at it.

I've seen charts that show that 18 g/cc tungsten #9 shot out penetrates 11.3g/cc lead #6 shot in ballistic gel.  However, the tiny #9 TSS obviously weighs less than #6 lead (360/ounce vs. 221/ounce).  So why do the lighter weight #9's out penetrate the heavier #6's?  Here are few things to consider.  (If you are concerned with significant figures you may want to look away.)

Lets verify the shot counts:

#9 shot is 2.03 mm diameter, giving a volume of 4.38 mm3 or .00438 cm3

#6 shot is 2.79 mm diameter, giving a volume of 11.37 mm3 or .01137 cm3

Using Volume and Density:

A TSS #9 (18 g/cm3) weighs .07884 grams = .00278 ounces = 1.2167 grains

A Pb #6 (11.3 g/cm3) weighs .12848 grams = .00453 ounces = 1.9827 grains

Number of shot per ounce:

TSS #9 -  1/ .00278 oz = 361/oz

Pb #6 – 1/ .00453 oz = 221/oz

There are a number of things that will affect penetration...........mass, velocity, cross sectional area, surface area, hardness.  The simplest way to determine penetration is to do like most have done and just shoot ballistic gel and measure the results.  There is nothing better than real world results, but the numbers can sometimes clear up some of why that just happened.

Kinetic Energy gets thrown around a lot so let's look at that:

KE = Mass x Velocity squared divided by a Constant.   Mass is in grains, Velocity in fps, and K is 450,435, and KE is in foot pounds

Instead of punching in all the numbers, I used Google, so the numbers could vary a little.

KE of #9 TSS @ 1200 fps = 3.8882 ft lbs

KE of #6 Pb @ 1200 fps = 6.3359 ft lbs

Now consider cross sectional area.

The cross sectional area of a # 9 = 3.24 mm2

The cross sectional area of a #6 = 6.11 mm2

#9 TSS
3.8882/3.24 = 1.20 ftlbs/mm2

#6 Pb
6.3359/6.11 = 1.04 ftlbs/mm2

So we can already see that a TSS #9 has more energy per mm2 than a Pb #6, both traveling at the same velocity.

Someone said before that the difference in wind resistence would be negligible.  I wouldn't say that considering that the cross sectional area of #6 is 89% larger.

Same for the surface area:

The surface area of a #9 shot = 12.95 mm2

The surface area of a #6 shot = 24.45 mm2

Let's assume that the drag forces of air and the object that we are shooting (penetrating) only acts on the front half of the sphere:

#9 shot = 6.475 mm2

#6 shot = 12.225 mm2

So without looking at any other numbers we can see that the TSS #9 has 15% more energy per unit of area than the Pb #6 (1.2 ftlbs/mm2 vs. 1.04 ftlbs/mm2).  We can also see that the Pb #6 has almost 90% more drag forces acting against it than the TSS #9.  More energy and less drag force will yield more penetration.

Another factor that I'm not even capable of calculating is how deformation or shape of the shot affects penetration.  It's my understanding that TSS is "more spherical".  That would increase penetration.  It is also harder, so it would not deform like lead.  Deformation sucks up energy that is used for penetration, so the harder shot would not lose penetration capability due to deformation.

Add all of that to 360 TSS #9's  vs. 221 Pb #6's and there is a clear winner.  However, I agree with many..............dead is dead, so if your lead is getting it done and you don't want to spend the extra cash.

Great info from this and other posts . Should be excellent turkey killing stuff, good retained velocity and penetration at turkey hunting ranges along with high pellet counts for good patterns . 9 shot in TSS should be just the ticket .

I believe I'd rather have a baseball shoot through me as a basketball any day of the week!  But either one is gonna kill so use your own preference that's about what it comes down too???? :gobble:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ccWMOFEicQ

Just geared up watching that video!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I got a box to try in the 16 ga. my dad gave me when I was 12. I've never killed a gobbler with it and hope to this season.

Quote from: Johnnemily on February 22, 2018, 12:06:44 PM
This is a good argument lol a number 5 longbeard with the right choke will kill 10/10 birds at 50 yds why pay 7-9 bucks a shell if your only judging 40 yd performance? What is the exact density comparison for lead pellet size in equivalence to a tss #9?

I recently took the plunge into reloading TSS. In NY we are limited to #8 shot for hunting turkeys so keep this in mind as #9 TSS has about 100 more pellets per load than #8 shot which in theory would give you even more pellets. I shot #6 longbeards prior to reloading TSS. The fact is both will kill turkeys inside 40 yards no problem, however, the TSS will give you a MUCH better pattern at close ranges. I used a factory full choke this past weekend, since my turkey chokes were TOO tight for TSS. This gave me a pattern at 20 yards which was almost twice the diameter as my longbeard #6 pattern and yet yielded the SAME pellet count in a 10in circle at 40 yards! This really opens up the room for error in close range shots in my opinion. This is with a 3in 12gauge shooting 2ounce loads of TSS #8s.

The benefits of TSS start shining in small bore shotguns or for those who simply do not want to have to find that perfect choke combo as TSS will do well with factory chokes. Imagine getting an effective turkey killing load in a 20guage shotgun which out performs your 12gauge 3.5inch loads! OR imagine a 410 shotgun which performs just as good as your 12gauge loads. My next turkey gun will be a 20gauge to reduce the weight I have to carry in the field AND reduce the cost to load the shells.