I have a dead ringer beard buster sight on my sons 20 ga mossberg. I've try everything I've move the sight as far left as it will go. Had him hold left. He is 13 so he holds the gun with know problem. He's already shot two boxes of ammo through his new sumtoy choke in two days. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Have you shot it on a rest? Are you sure it is him?
I had a Nova 12 gauge that I just gave away due to POI so far left I could not correct it. No choke or load mattered.
When I shot it was a little high but centered. The gun always has shot a little high with me I guess were it's so short
He's dominant eye n hand may not match. Here's another thing is he flinching? 13 years old shouldn't be shooting tons of turkey loads. You ougta be sighting it in n let him use bird loads to practice, maybe just very sparingly turkey loads to check him imo
Shoot the gun yourself to be sure that it's shooting straight. If so, than he's flinching to the right. (Most people consistently pull to the same direction). It's gonna be tough to overcome. Moving the sight to compensate for the flinch will do more harm than good. If you find out that he is indeed flinching, switch him to light target loads and save the hunting loads for hunting. Limit range time to a few shots at a time. A lead sled can help by minimizing the felt recoil. And above all else be supportive. Good luck.
Quote from: Bowguy on March 21, 2017, 08:23:25 PM
He's dominant eye n hand may not match. Here's another thing is he flinching? 13 years old shouldn't be shooting tons of turkey loads. You ougta be sighting it in n let him use bird loads to practice, maybe just very sparingly turkey loads to check him imo
First thing I thought, I have seen this a bunch with a lot of ladies too, they tend to be a righty with left eye dominant... I would check this first. Most of the time you will notice them with their head leaned way over on the stock trying to see.
If not that, may need to look into a scope for adjustment and it does help them hold on the birds neck right. Every turkey gun we have setup has a scope and works out great with the kids!!
MK M GOBL
Sounds like eye dominance. Try blinding his left eye and see what happens.
How hard is the trigger pull? A light trigger will be much more accurate than a hard trigger or one that creeps. Both will lead to pulled shots
A right handed shooter that is left eye dominant, will usually shoot left.
Try the eye test to determine.
I would think flinching.
Watch him shoot looking closely at his face. My guess he is closing his eyes just before the shot.
Get some of the lightest loads your gun will shoot.
Put some padding between his shoulder and gun.
Good hearing protection is a must, as the bang can cause you to flinch as much as the recoil.
Practice at 20 yards with a rest until he is comfortable. Not more than about 10 shots max per outing.
Move to 30 yards and repeat a different day.
Next outing, a max of 2-3 shots with the load he is using at 30 yards.
:fud: :OGani:
Too many shots in one outing will cause "recoil anticipation".
All this is after you have confirmed that no problems with the gun or sights.
Most important
Good sights and sight picture
Good rest
Good trigger pull
Good recoil padding
Good hearing protection
He will get there, just don't try and do it all in 1 or 2 outings.
Yeah think a good trigger job such as on a rifle ifs a dedicated turkey gun, might help him not jerking the trigger causing to pull right.
Set him up to shoot a target again. However don't put a shell in the gun and don't let him see that you didn't put one in there. Let him pull the trigger and you will know whether he is flinching or not.
Quote from: HFultzjr on March 22, 2017, 09:47:25 AM
A right handed shooter that is left eye dominant, will usually shoot left.
Try the eye test to determine.
I would think flinching.
Watch him shoot looking closely at his face. My guess he is closing his eyes just before the shot.
Get some of the lightest loads your gun will shoot.
Put some padding between his shoulder and gun.
Good hearing protection is a must, as the bang can cause you to flinch as much as the recoil.
Practice at 20 yards with a rest until he is comfortable. Not more than about 10 shots max per outing.
Move to 30 yards and repeat a different day.
Next outing, a max of 2-3 shots with the load he is using at 30 yards.
:fud: :OGani:
Too many shots in one outing will cause "recoil anticipation".
All this is after you have confirmed that no problems with the gun or sights.
Most important
Good sights and sight picture
Good rest
Good trigger pull
Good recoil padding
Good hearing protection
He will get there, just don't try and do it all in 1 or 2 outings.
The eye dominance thing quoted here is correct at the same distance. Closer he'd possibly be right (real close if iron sights used) further left. The head cant thing is also a giveaway. Hearing protection as in double inner and outer will help w flinch.
If he's lefty n shooting as far as op check his eye
Here are some tips on determining eye dominance.
http://www.wikihow.com/Determine-Your-Dominant-Eye
If it is inconclusive, he does not have a dominate eye. In the shooting class I teach, I have only seen this 2 times I believe. If that is the case, any open sights will be a nightmare. He could use an eye patch or shooting glasses with one eye blocked. That is what we had to do with the 2 non dominant eyed kids we had. It should not be as much of a problem with a scope, although correct eye relief would be more critical.
Quote from: NFW on March 22, 2017, 10:40:56 AM
Yeah think a good trigger job such as on a rifle ifs a dedicated turkey gun, might help him not jerking the trigger causing to pull right.
This.
Hes jerking the trigger.
Quote from: HFultzjr on March 22, 2017, 12:11:52 PM
Here are some tips on determining eye dominance.
http://www.wikihow.com/Determine-Your-Dominant-Eye
If it is inconclusive, he does not have a dominate eye. In the shooting class I teach, I have only seen this 2 times I believe. If that is the case, any open sights will be a nightmare. He could use an eye patch or shooting glasses with one eye blocked. That is what we had to do with the 2 non dominant eyed kids we had. It should not be as much of a problem with a scope, although correct eye relief would be more critical.
He may be cross eyed dominant. A scope is ideal. Squinting or partially blocking one eye to force dominance in the other is better than fully closing one.
In the classes I teach we go w a dominant hand first in that case. Try both sides of not
Quote from: kjnengr on March 22, 2017, 11:11:43 AM
Set him up to shoot a target again. However don't put a shell in the gun and don't let him see that you didn't put one in there. Let him pull the trigger and you will know whether he is flinching or not.
This. My guess is that he is anticipating the recoil. If that's the case, take it seriously. You want to nip it in the bud asap.
I would walk him through all the steps of shooting....then go to the range with a .22 to practice the steady hold and squeeze. Then go back to the shotgun (with light loads) and you load the gun with him having the knowledge that there MAY or MAY NOT be a shell in the pipe. His form must remain the same regardless. Keep doing this until there is no flinching. Throw in shooting some moving targets (like trap) to take his mind off the recoil and concentrate on shooting the target. I hope this helps.
Quote from: EZ on March 22, 2017, 01:19:58 PM
Quote from: kjnengr on March 22, 2017, 11:11:43 AM
Set him up to shoot a target again. However don't put a shell in the gun and don't let him see that you didn't put one in there. Let him pull the trigger and you will know whether he is flinching or not.
This. My guess is that he is anticipating the recoil. If that's the case, take it seriously. You want to nip it in the bud asap.
I would walk him through all the steps of shooting....then go to the range with a .22 to practice the steady hold and squeeze. Then go back to the shotgun (with light loads) and you load the gun with him having the knowledge that there MAY or MAY NOT be a shell in the pipe. His form must remain the same regardless. Keep doing this until there is no flinching. Throw in shooting some moving targets (like trap) to take his mind off the recoil and concentrate on shooting the target. I hope this helps.
Both of those are also great advice
A right-handed, left eye dominant shooter will generally shoot to the left of the target, not to the right.
A left-handed, right eye dominant shooter will shoot to the right.
Shooting a stationary target with a shotgun, and closing an eye, should be right on target, no matter which eye is dominant.
A right-handed shooter shooting to the right, it is most likely a flinching issue.
The length of the gun (LOP) being too long can definitely make someone pull to the right a bit, especially a right-handed shooter. A gun that is too long will also add significant felt recoil to shooting.
A semi automatic shotgun can definitely reduce recoil as well.
And, this goes for anyone patterning their gun... When shooting the gun to see where the gun shoots, use light recoiling target loads. Once you figure out where the gun is shooting then pattern one or two turkey loads. No need to punish yourself with big recoiling loads to see where the gun shoots.
So, make sure the gun fits ( as a gun that is too long will increase recoil and change for the gun shoots for some shooters ). Have him practice with lighter recoiling loads, and consider a semi-automatic to reduce recoil even more.
And............................................
Take your time with all these points.
Patience is key in a situation like this.
Don't let him get frustrated and don't let him see you frustrated.
1 step at a time, let him know what you are doing and why.
Don't you or him expect it to all fall in place at one time.
"Baby steps", like we say.
Encouragement when something starts to improve.
The absolute worst things you could do/say are things like:
"Yelling"
"Hold that gun like a man"
"What the "bleep" are you shooting at"
"Man, we are getting nowhere"
"etc., etc."
:character0029:
If you expect too much too quick, you may just end up with a kid that doesn't want to hunt...seen it happen before. The idea is to make it an enjoyable experience HE WANTS to do. Not something dad is MAKING him do.
I have yet to see a kid, that WANTS to shoot, not be able to shoot. Patience, proper training, realistic expectations and time. If he looses interest or it become frustrating......take some time off. Come back later. He is 13 years old!
Now go have some fun!
:z-guntootsmiley:
I would guess flinching/ heavy trigger. The mossys have a heavy trigger, mine was 8 3/4 lbs! I pulled to the right every time and i'm an experienced shooter. Mcarbo sells a spring kit for the mossberg that will lower the pull to under 5lbs. It's $16, easy to install and makes a world of difference.
Quote from: HFultzjr on March 22, 2017, 05:08:14 PM
And............................................
Take your time with all these points.
Patience is key in a situation like this.
Don't let him get frustrated and don't let him see you frustrated.
1 step at a time, let him know what you are doing and why.
Don't you or him expect it to all fall in place at one time.
"Baby steps", like we say.
Encouragement when something starts to improve.
The absolute worst things you could do/say are things like:
"Yelling"
"Hold that gun like a man"
"What the "bleep" are you shooting at"
"Man, we are getting nowhere"
"etc., etc."
:character0029:
If you expect too much too quick, you may just end up with a kid that doesn't want to hunt...seen it happen before. The idea is to make it an enjoyable experience HE WANTS to do. Not something dad is MAKING him do.
I have yet to see a kid, that WANTS to shoot, not be able to shoot. Patience, proper training, realistic expectations and time. If he looses interest or it become frustrating......take some time off. Come back later. He is 13 years old!
Now go have some fun!
:z-guntootsmiley:
Man that is really good advice!
Thanks everyone with the tips. Took him to day and let him shot the gun unloaded without him knowing. He has a real bad flinch. Worked with him and he is shooting better still pulling right but not as bad. Going to get the trigger worked on after turkey season since youth season starts this Saturday. Thanks again for all the help.
Quote from: turkeykiller on March 28, 2017, 08:27:31 PM
Thanks everyone with the tips. Took him to day and let him shot the gun unloaded without him knowing. He has a real bad flinch. Worked with him and he is shooting better still pulling right but not as bad. Going to get the trigger worked on after turkey season since youth season starts this Saturday. Thanks again for all the help.
As a firearms instructor for 25 yrs - I can say the "ball & dummy" exercise works wonders on detecting a flinch. It can help cure it, too. Just have to have him work on concentrating through the trigger squeeze / shot sequence. Light loads at reactive (water balloons, etc) targets sometimes helps focus on the target more than the BANG!
Flinching is a natural reaction that needs to be tamed and overcome. As (somewhat) intelligent creatures, we are fully aware that when we pull the trigger - there's gonna be a very loud EXPLOSION occurring relatively close to our head!
If you can buy some dummy rounds (or make your own, recrimped emptys) and let your son watch you load 3 into the gun - not knowing which 1 is gonna be the dummy will help too. He knows 1 or 2 will go BANG! but also knows there is a dud or 2. Sight picture / trigger concentration will get better.
Good luck this season!!
Quote from: turkeykiller on March 28, 2017, 08:27:31 PM
Thanks everyone with the tips. Took him to day and let him shot the gun unloaded without him knowing. He has a real bad flinch. Worked with him and he is shooting better still pulling right but not as bad. Going to get the trigger worked on after turkey season since youth season starts this Saturday. Thanks again for all the help.
Now you know. And knowing is half the battle.
Quote from: turkeykiller on March 28, 2017, 08:27:31 PM
Thanks everyone with the tips. Took him to day and let him shot the gun unloaded without him knowing. He has a real bad flinch. Worked with him and he is shooting better still pulling right but not as bad. Going to get the trigger worked on after turkey season since youth season starts this Saturday. Thanks again for all the help.
Buddy this is why in my first post I stated I use light bird loads w kids. Maybe you can try it. If the gun is patterned n he's of correct dominance don't punish him. Don't even tell him what you're putting in gun. Don't tell him you're increasing it come season.
My advise- get rid of the scope. Scopes are not necessary for turkey hunting.Scopes are for big game hunting. I have never used a scope, and have only wounded one turkey, in 25 years.Get a good quality gun, browning, Winchester, Remington, beretta, LC. Smith, ect.
As others have stated, after verifying that the gun is shooting straight, let him shoot light target loads (at targets) until the flinching stops. Until he gets old enough to handle the recoil of shooting turkey loads, don't let him shoot them unless he is shooting at a gobbler. If you are concerned about whether the guns shoots straight with the turkey loads, shoot it yourself rather than letting him shoot it.
If all else fails, put a more forgiving choke in the gun and let him shoot that. Determine what his effective range is, and limit his shooting at gobblers to that range.
There is one sure-fire way to get anyone,...kid or adult,...to develop a flinch,...and that is to shoot a bunch of turkey loads through your gun at the range.
Use the lightest loads your gun will shoot.
Limit range to encourage "hits"....maybe 20 yards.
Do not shoot a lot of rounds per session
Make sure he has GOOD hearing protection. A lot of times the bang is worse than the punch.
A Limbsaver slip on recoil pad will do wonders.
https://www.amazon.com/LimbSaver-Slip-On-Recoil-Pad/dp/B01IJUPLTC
Baby steps and work your way up. If he can't shoot a magnum load, go with less and limit his range.
I'm sure a lot of turkeys have fallen to a low brass #6 or #7-1/2 at 20-25 yards.
Make it fun and have fun!
Quote from: turkeykiller on March 28, 2017, 08:27:31 PM
Thanks everyone with the tips. Took him to day and let him shot the gun unloaded without him knowing. He has a real bad flinch. Worked with him and he is shooting better still pulling right but not as bad. Going to get the trigger worked on after turkey season since youth season starts this Saturday. Thanks again for all the help.
Glad to see you are on your way to getting things figured out...
As I mentioned above, I really believe that LOP (stock length) being too long greatly increases recoil and the chances of pulling the gun off target. All of my guns have been cut to fit me, and there is no doubt that my wing/clay shooting has greatly improved with good gun fit.
Depending on the gun, you can sometimes purchase a cheap unfinished wood stock, and have it cut to fit. I have mine cut short enough that I can put on a thick "juicy" recoil pad... As he grows into the gun, you can always add spacers easy enough.
As GobbleNut points out, there is absolutely no need to shoot high-bass shells for practice. It wastes money in increases flinching tendencies.
As SteelerFan points out, shooting some light loads with dummy shells in the gun can help the shooter become more aware of the flinch, and allows the shooter to actively resist flinching.
Also, you can use dummy shells at home in the room. Practice holding at a point and pulling the trigger without pulling the gun... This helps to create muscle memory and greatly reduces the urge to flinch.
Now, if you do decide to let him use a dummy load in the family room, just make sure you do not confuse said round with a live round... I promise you the wife will not be happy if this occurs... And even if you are using a dummy round, always make sure that gun safety and muzzle direction is accounted for.
For the reasons stated above, I make sure that dummy rounds I use are noticeably different in appearance than any live rounds.
Here is a link for some Snap Caps.
MAKE SURE THERE IS NO LIVE AMMO IN THE SAME ROOM.
And still practice as though the gun is loaded.
Helps keep the wife happy!
https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss/164-5150532-3662841?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=shotgun+snap+caps