Question. Everybody who has turkey hunted much has heard the whole calling skill vs woodsman ship debate. My question is, if you could take 10% of you skills in either of those catagories and add them to the other which would it be. Personally I would trade a little calling ability for a little more woodsmanship.
Probably the woodsmanship. I have read many times that people hear other folks who cant call worth a damn but still manage to call in birds.
Last year was my first, I sucked (still not great) with the pot call and I brought them in a couple times...
Great thread by the way.
Woodsmanship! You don't have to sound great to call in a turkey.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I'm definitely for woodsmanship! I grew up hunting family land I ran around on. And although we didn't turkey hunt we deer hunted and I always took my knowledge of those woods for granted. Now I'm having to scout public lands and learning quickly I need to brush up on my woodsmanship skills.
Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk
For me it's woodsmanship. I know my calling ability has never been that great. After eight seasons and a lot of practice, my calling needs improvement. I found that by scouting hard and learning all I could about bird movement, strutting areas, and roosting/feeding areas, I could still be successful without being the greatest caller.
A good caller can make a turkey do a lot of things a poor caller can't.
People forget that turkeys speak their language everyday of the week. They know what it's supposed to sound like and what it isn't. They also understand the context in which their fellow turkey uses a vocalizations has a large impact on the actual meaning .
I.don't wish to offend anyone but it has been my experience that those who emphasize woodsmanship are usually not that conversant with turkeys. I was lucky to have been taught by two great turkey hunters. One sounded like crap but killed a lot of turkeys and was very good in the woods. Kenny Morgan & I used to laugh and say that the turkeys finally just gave up and surrendered. The other was Kenny who was a great woodsman but loved and concentrated on conversing with turkeys. Our time was spent not as much on practicing woodsmanship skills except in gaining good ground from which to converse with a gobbler without the gobbler having any suspicion concerning our existence.
From the foundation I received from those fine gentlemen and my study of the language of the Wild Turkey, I believe that I am going to call every turkey that gobbles into shotgun range. I don't, of course,, but I believe that the gobbling turkey is going to come. I went to ten gobbling turkeys last Spring and nine came into shotgun range. The tenth was across the creek and by his actions, I surmised that.he was in tow. I called him in silently the next afternoon for a friend who didn't yet realize how well they can see.
I use woodsmanship in my hunting but except to gain a superior calling positition, not consciously. I sure do get a kick out of the mental challenge of trying to determine the manner of calling that will cause him to commit. If I had to deer hunt them or use decoys, I would quit.
I would say woodsmanship (I think of woodsmanship as being able to correlate knowledge of not only the woods but the animals in relation to it and their species itself and then being able to put it all together. Ex: deer hunters look for funnels, oaks, & turkey hunters look for ridges, oaks, etc.) reason being I use this first and foremost to try and locate areas that based on my knowledge of terrain, food types/quantity, water, roosting trees, etc. will likely hold and support populations of birds. Once I have an area picked, I try and get permission and then get to scouting (I don't care how good of caller one is, if there are not birds there then what will it matter..... ;D).
Now if you do find an area that has birds, then we can discuss calling. I don't think you have to be a great caller but I do think that you need to understand when to and not, different types and somewhat of a reason as to why they call like they do when they do (I don't think any of us on here would throw out alarm putts at birds and expect them to come into us and this is because we have learned why and what it means).
Here is some food for thought. My nephew started hunting with me 2 years ago and within that time period has learned a ton of knowledge than beforehand. He had only heard turkeys on the outdoor channel gobble but basically never heard a hen "talk" because the only yelps, clucks, cuts, etc. that he heard was coming out of a mans mouth or off a friction call. When I gave him a slate to practice on, he replied to me that he would never sound as good as a real hen so I decided to test him. I turned his back to the computer and turned on youtube and played some sounds from callers at the NWTF and then switched to a video of a real hen talking. I did this at least 3 times and asked him a simple question: which is real and which is not? All three times he picked the NWTF competition caller as being "real". My point for this test was to prove to him that you don't have to be perfect with your calls but its more important to understand the call itself. This understanding will aid you in the hunt and overall the basic knowledge of the wild turkey.
So my conclusion is this: Without improving your woodsmanship I would think that you would be doing yourself a greater disservice than you would be if you increased your calling ability by 10%. Just my :z-twocents:
Quote from: Happy on February 10, 2016, 08:36:59 PM
Question. Everybody who has turkey hunted much has heard the whole calling skill vs woodsman ship debate. My question is, if you could take 10% of you skills in either of those catagories and add them to the other which would it be. Personally I would trade a little calling ability for a little more woodsmanship.
Woodsmanship.
If you want to be more precise about it: acquiring the skill to anticipate where turkeys will be and finding good cover beforehand to effect a successful ambush.
I don't mean that I want to go out and ambush turkeys without calling. However, even if I were out running and gunning, I want to:
a) anticipate where a gobbler is going
b) get there first
c) hide myself in such a way that I will be able to see him before he sees me
d) be able to get my gun up, acquire his head and neck and close the deal.
I have called turkeys in just by shifting my weight on my knees in dry leaves. I have yelped at 2 PM and had a turkey come strolling in at 5 PM. Heck, the first time I ever went turkey hunting-- my first yelp even-- I had a gobbler honor my call. However, it has taken 30-some years to figure out where to be and where to sit and where to put my gun so that I can get the shot. I still get it wrong a lot of the time. My grand daughter, the Mooselette, is 4. She can call well enough to get a gobbler to answer.
Calling? Yes, I have called gobblers out of the roost. I have made gobblers come running from 300 yards away. However, I never got a gobbler to go somewhere that he would not have thought of going to in the first place.
One other thing: most hens would never win a calling contest.
Woodsmanship hands down. Got a friend of mine that isn't the best caller in the world but I wouldn't want him hunting me I can tell you that.
I'll have to say woodsmanship too. Calling birds is the stuff, but IMHO there's so much more to turkey hunting than sitting down someplace and calling. From learning to recognise the places that are attractive to the birds and why, the time of day or year they're likely to be in certain places, reading sign, knowing the right places to set up and so many other little things.
I don't underrate calling though, either. I think if we learn all we can of woodsmanship, put it to good use AND learn as much as we can about turkey vocalizations, when to make what calls, subtleties in tone and volume, and cadence, we'll be more successful and get most satisfaction out of this wonderful obsession. :z-twocents:
Bob
Quote from: silvestris on February 10, 2016, 11:55:25 PM
I.don't wish to offend anyone but it has been my experience that those who emphasize woodsmanship are usually not that conversant with turkeys. I was lucky to have been taught by two great turkey hunters. One sounded like crap but killed a lot of turkeys and was very good in the woods. Kenny Morgan & I used to laugh and say that the turkeys finally just gave up and surrendered. The other was Kenny who was a great woodsman but loved and concentrated on conversing with turkeys. Our time was spent not as much on practicing woodsmanship skills except in gaining good ground from which to converse with a gobbler without the gobbler having any suspicion concerning our existence.
From the foundation I received from those fine gentlemen and my study of the language of the Wild Turkey, I believe that I am going to call every turkey that gobbles into shotgun range. I don't, of course,, but I believe that the gobbling turkey is going to come. I went to ten gobbling turkeys last Spring and nine came into shotgun range. The tenth was across the creek and by his actions, I surmised that.he was in tow. I called him in silently the next afternoon for a friend who didn't yet realize how well they can see.
I use woodsmanship in my hunting but except to gain a superior calling positition, not consciously. I sure do get a kick out of the mental challenge of trying to determine the manner of calling that will cause him to commit. If I had to deer hunt them or use decoys, I would quit.
This.
Most guys don't know the difference between a gobbler yelp or a hen yelp. They don't understand their hen yelp cadence is too slow. They don't understand that when a hen cutt, that one cluck is low and the other high.
It doesn't matter if an average caller can identify a superior calling position and hide himself well when you're talking about henned up or early season turkeys. They don't know how to integrate gobbler yelps with hen assembly yelps and the technical aspects of calling that will get those birds into gun range.
The average caller can kill a hot bird with no hens without any problems. They go to the field and find the right bird on the right day 2,3 or maybe 4 times a season but when you're watching 10-20+ turkeys die a season, you ain't just calling the hot birds and it's the calling that facilitates that success.
Without a doubt woodsmanship. Honestly if you know the land and where the birds strut and done your scouting as well as understand a turkey even a novice can kill birds with no more calling than simple yelping, But it sure aint as much fun
Woodsmanship. You can call like the greatest caller ever but if you cannot set up correctly or know how to move in the woods then you will not kill as many turkeys.
Well Im average AT BEST in calling department, and a little above average (at least I like to think so) in the woodsmanship department. Most my opportunities at birds, I have ambushed or snuck up on them. Got more serious about becoming a better caller a few years back. Most my focus was on a diaphragm (hard to run a pot call while drivin) and being able to talk to them makes a world of difference. I think great turkey hunters are well above average in both.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
woodsmanship hands down. if you can't read turkey sign then how are you going to find them. if you don't know what kind of mast to look for, again how are you going to find them. I only in the last few years felt like my calling was better then when I started but my woodsmanship was honed a long time ago.
Quote from: trkehunr93 on February 11, 2016, 10:52:20 AM
woodsmanship hands down. if you can't read turkey sign then how are you going to find them. if you don't know what kind of mast to look for, again how are you going to find them. I only in the last few years felt like my calling was better then when I started but my woodsmanship was honed a long time ago.
Since when is it hard to find turkeys? Get up a couple mornings a week during the preseason and go listen.
IMO The only people telling you that calling ability kills more birds are
people in the Game Call Business or have some type of affiliation with
them and people who have not been hunting turkey for a long time. I have a group of friends and we all limit out each year on private and public land and non of us have supreme calling ability.
most people would consider Tom Kelly one of the God Fathers of Turkey
hunting. He knows more about turkey hunting and has probably killed more
birds than 95% of us. if you ever buy his book A Fork in the Road he sends
you an instructional DVD. He has a segment on the DVD where he shows you how
he calls. when he yelps on his mouth call it sounds AWFUL! I was so
surprised. I imagined he could call like Billy Yargus. so my point is
Calling ability.... "trying to be stage worthy" is not as important in the
actual game of "Turkey Hunting"
I still have not answered your question. Which ability would I give up to be better at the other...?.... NEITHER. Ability is earned not giving and every ability I have I fought for I don't want anything handed to me bc it tarnishes my legacy
I'll take calling everytime and I am NOT talking about stage level calling...I am talking about someone that knows how to have a real conversation with a turkey.
99.9% of the people I know and see hunting have no clue what a gobbler yelp is, or that a gobbler even cutts. Most people think gobblers only fan up in spring...most people dont know that you can kill limits of birds without ever making a hen sound.
2015 Old Gobbler contest Champions
Since when is it hard to find turkeys? Get up a couple mornings a week during the preseason and go listen.
[/quote] Depends on where you hunt I've hunted some public land Mtn birds that would jump around and have populations changes that if you didn't have the woodsmanship you would be eating tags few mornings scouting were almost worthless no foodplots to hold them have to know the local hangouts and what they had to eat calling with you on one Mtn and them on totally different one can get frustrating. Laearning the ridges they will and won't use makes huge difference same with old logging roads. Have to be where they are to call/kill em
I would take woodsmanship, You got to be able to find the turkey sign and know what to look for. And you also got to know how to set up on that gobbler once you do find him. It really don't take a expert to be able to call that turkey in. So in my opinion I would take woodsmanship hands down.
I would have to say transfer to calling. I mean I kill birds but I can admit that my calling isn't the best and probably never will be. I hear folks that can sho nuff blow a diaphragm or run a box and sound great everytime. I guess my biggest issue would be consistency will my calling!
I feel I have more woods skill to spare than I do calling, so I'd trade 10% of it to improve my calling by 10%.
The more you sound like a turkey the more encounters you will have.
True but you still gotta be where they are for them to hear you. We all have to take into account the quality land your hunting. takes less woodsmanship to kill birds on private land loaded with birds than on heavy pressured public land with not so many birds to begin with.
Think it's def woodsmanship. Can't kill turkeys if you aren't in/near them. No matter how good the calling it won't matter if birds can't hear you
I'd take 10% better calling. I don't score well in calling contests but I kill birds with calling and my bow in both Spring and Fall year after year.
Maybe I should clarify my definition of calling and woodsmanship. Woodsmanship to me is being able to get on birds, slip into position undetected to a spot that he knows is appropriate for working a bird and then knowing when and what calls to use to bring the turkey into range. Calling is accurately making the calls of the turkey. In my mind woodsmanship is more necessary to consistently kill birds than calling skill. At least as I have defined it. Now having said that I believe that every hunter should strive to be the very best they can be with both aspects of the game. A mastery of both leads to a lot of dead turkeys.
image
Quote from: VaTuRkStOmPeR on February 11, 2016, 11:17:20 AM
Quote from: trkehunr93 on February 11, 2016, 10:52:20 AM
woodsmanship hands down. if you can't read turkey sign then how are you going to find them. if you don't know what kind of mast to look for, again how are you going to find them. I only in the last few years felt like my calling was better then when I started but my woodsmanship was honed a long time ago.
Since when is it hard to find turkeys? Get up a couple mornings a week during the preseason and go listen.
Listening is only one piece of the puzzle. I fall hunt as much as I spring hunt so woodsmanship is top on
my list and if you can't read sign and know areas turkeys like then I feel your short changing yourself on being a well rounded hunter. I am up most every morning in the spring listening, but what do you for those mornings during the spring when everything falls silent? You go to those places you know turkeys like because you completed the puzzle, you didn't just focus on one piece. Why does that gobbler like that spot so much? Are there good roost trees? Is it a preferred strut zone? Is there food there that the hens are eating so he's tagging along because he knows he can get plenty of a$& when the time comes? I like to and tend to think outside the box. Just me.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
After reading all these replies I realize I don't know jack.... Anyone got a good source of information to help develop my woodsmanship skills? Heck I thought yall where talking about how to navigate the woods quietly in and out.... Not where birds like to be at certain times, how they move, and how to read their "signs"
This conversation reminds me of a story told by the great Ray Eye. He and another fellow got into a heated discussion one evening about which was more important—calling or woodsmanship. Ray was adamant that it was calling—the other guy argued it was woodsmanship. The next morning they hunted together and set up on a gobbler. The gobbler flew down, gobbled a few times and began to slowly walk away from the hunters. After the gobbler left, the fellow hunting with Ray went to over to him pretty worked up and said " Ray!!!! Why didn't you call to that Gobbler?? Why did you just sit there and let him walk off?? Ray replied " I keep waiting for you to woodsmanship him over to us!"
Both are very important. But to my personal experience, there is a lot of moving, setting up, subtle adjustments, anticipation, and learning turkey behavior. That's woodsmanship. I've heard some great callers, and dang, I wish I sounded that good. But I've also heard some awful callers, and some of them are flat out turkey killers. So in my opinion, woodsmanship is more important than calling ability, although both are necessary skills.
Tree rooster,
I think we got a little sidtracked. Yes to me woodsmanship seems more obvious. My question was not about that. It was which would you give up to gain more of the other. There is no wrong answer to that as we all have different strengths and weaknesses. I just felt the need to clarify so that people would not be confused.
image
Since I'm just an OK caller, and a pretty decent woodsman, there's your answer. I'd give up some calling ability to be a better woodsman, because I think that pays more dividends.
You know, there is a way we could put this all to a test. This spring, go out and roost you a gobbler in any fashion you choose. Go back to hunt him the next morning and leave the calls in the truck. See if you kill him...;)
2015 Old Gobbler contest Champions
Quote from: BowBendr on February 11, 2016, 03:24:31 PM
You know, there is a way we could put this all to a test. This spring, go out and roost you a gobbler in any fashion you choose. Go back to hunt him the next morning and leave the calls in the truck. See if you kill him...;)
2015 Old Gobbler contest Champions
I'd give a couple folks I know about a 60% chance of killing him. Most folks I know I'd give them about a 95% chance of boogering him without ever seeing him.
Oh I could kill him but that's not the point and I would quit hunting if reduced to those measures. However once again the question is not whether woodsmanship or calling is more important. The question is personally which area would you sacrifice 10% of your skill to gain 10% in the other. I wholeheartedly agree that you have to be able to call a turkey to consistently kill them. In my world the two skills go hand in hand. I just wanted to see if like me, how many feel they call better than than they handle the rest of the game and vice versa.
image
Out of the two, my calling is the weakest. I'd gladly give up 10% Bobcat'n skills to gain 10% more calling realism. I'm totally confident in my when,why and where to call, would just like a little more realism to my ear.
Quote from: RutnNStrutn on February 11, 2016, 01:44:33 PM
Both are very important. But to my personal experience, there is a lot of moving, setting up, subtle adjustments, anticipation, and learning turkey behavior. That's woodsmanship. I've heard some great callers, and dang, I wish I sounded that good. But I've also heard some awful callers, and some of them are flat out turkey killers. So in my opinion, woodsmanship is more important than calling ability, although both are necessary skills.
I agree. I learned a few tips from Mr. camp and Mr. Johnson about turkey hunting and they stressed woodsmanship. You can be the best caller on the planet but if your out of position your only talking to yourself.
Now I am always practicing calling because you can always improve. But what got me thinking about this is I was thinking about the one fellow I know that is consistently death on birds. I can out call him hands down but you can drop him off on property he has never seen before and if he is in earshot of a bird then that bird is in serious trouble. He doesn't kill one every time out but I would never bet against him. Now me in the same situation will bat a lower average. I really get better the more time I spend on a certain piece of property. I want to really get better at that aspect of things. I know experience is always the best teacher but he makes me a little jealous. I feel my game will go to a higher level if I can get a better handle on that.
image
Quote from: Happy on February 11, 2016, 05:01:28 PM
Now I am always practicing calling because you can always improve. But what got me thinking about this is I was thinking about the one fellow I know that is consistently death on birds. I can out call him hands down but you can drop him off on property he has never seen before and if he is in earshot of a bird then that bird is in serious trouble. He doesn't kill one every time out but I would never bet against him. Now me in the same situation will bat a lower average. I really get better the more time I spend on a certain piece of property. I want to really get better at that aspect of things. I know experience is always the best teacher but he makes me a little jealous. I feel my game will go to a higher level if I can get a better handle on that.
image
And for a brief moment, I thought this was about me. Lol
As I've stated in the past, my calling isn't great. It's improved, but not great. In recent years I've done much better in that department. In the past, I also relied heavily on the use of a rifle. Granted, most birds were still shot within 40 yards, it was there if I wanted it. Calmed down a lot lately and the thought of using a shotgun doesn't seem so bad. Having said that, it leads me to believe that woodsmanship is certainly more important. How much more? I can't say for sure but that's where my 10% would go. Looking very much forward to the coming season.
Good question,...and an interesting and lively discussion here.
My answer is sort-of a cop-out on the direct question, but to me it depends a lot on where I am hunting and the situation.
There are times I have hunted a spot that I knew very well, but for some reason my calling just wasn't getting responses, which in turn made me question my calling tactics and ability. In those instances, I would have been willing to trade some woodsmanship for a bit more confidence in what I was saying to the turkeys.
On the other hand, there have been just as many times that I have been somewhere that I did not know very well,...or at all,...and felt my calling was spot-on (or at least reasonably competent), was getting responses from gobblers, but could not get them in. At those times, I would gladly give up a bit of calling ability to have a better idea of the lay of the land and more knowledge of the habits of the birds in the area.
The bottom line is that my answer to the question would likely change in any given situation.
Quote from: BowBendr on February 11, 2016, 03:24:31 PM
You know, there is a way we could put this all to a test. This spring, go out and roost you a gobbler in any fashion you choose. Go back to hunt him the next morning and leave the calls in the truck. See if you kill him...;)
2015 Old Gobbler contest Champions
Ah but it was your woodsmanship that found and roosted the bird so your calling could kill him and to kill him means you knew where he was most likely to fly down for a good set up
To me woodsmanship isn't about finding the birds. That's easy. You're not tracking bongo thru the rain forest. Turkeys are located by vocalizations, sight, tracks, droppings, feathers, scratching and dust bowls. Not more to it than that. Woodsmanship is how you move/setup and choose to do things to make the kill. When I became a better woodsman is when I started killing birds more consistently. Where to setup, what to say/what not to say, how to read the bird, etc. I think when you add superb woodsmanship with top notch calling then you have the recipe for ultimate success. So in short, imo, woodsmanship is the most important but add that with top notch calling and your at the pinnacle. My calling needs more work than my woodsmanship
I have sat and thought back on past hunts and tried to think what it was that helped me succeed, or fail for that matter. And I think it boils down to where and how you hunt. I often hunt a couple of small tracts that do not hold birds due to the lack of roost trees, but I kill birds there regularly with out decoys. Now while I feel both of the mentioned skill sets are very important, I can promise you that woodsmanship will not get a gobbler to cross a fence or leave a hen. And it wont keep that sassy ole hen pacing around your tree for 5 or 10 minutes looking for the intruder while the gobbler your after takes his sweet time strutting into gun range. When you don't have many options of where to set up and you cant get where you know he wants to go its the calling that makes the difference. Now when I'm on public land a mile or so deep it is undoubtedly my woodsmanship that gets me into a position where my calling can even be used.
So lets set aside the decoys and forget those HOT fired up gobblers that would cross hell and high water after hearing a single yelp and I not sure the average hunter would consistently do to well with out combining both of the skills.
I am an average hunter but I feel pretty well rounded so if I had to give up part of one to gain on another I'd just keep what I have and go hunting. If I cant kill him today it just means there's more fun for tomorrow.
Woodsmanship
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
If I could pick the part of woodsmanship that tells me what to say and when to say it... I will take 10% more of that.