I see this phrase used a lot and see it advertised on some callmakers websites. I am real curious what this means to you? I am definitely "Old School" and I think of a handmade box call as one that has been chiseled out by hand, sanded, hand checkered, and finished. But with today's technology there are machines out there that basically do all these steps for you. The parts are put together and the call is tuned by the callmaker. The checkering is done by a machine. I know calls like this can be turned out in great numbers whereas calls that you can see a series of drill marks in the bottom of the box are truly made one at a time. I am not trying to say one is superior to the other, but just trying to understand what is "Handmade" by todays' standards.
My boxes by Wendell Lancaster are all dug out by hand and pretty sure his checkering is as well. Not sure about the whole box, but I know he takes a lot of time creating the sound chamber and tuning the box.
All my boxes are done by hand, and the checkering is done by hand, a friend of mine got a cnc router, and I let him try cutting some checkering, and it just looks to machine done, it doesn't have the definition, or the look and feel of a box done by hand
An easy way to tell if the checkering is done by hand. Look at the corners of the checkering, if square done by hand. If rounded done by a router.
All mine are hand carved hand finished hand checkered hand tuned im not so sure there is a todays' standard .
Quote from: hunter22 on February 23, 2015, 09:26:33 AM
I think of a handmade box call as one that has been chiseled out by hand, sanded, hand checkered, and finished.
Agreed!
Chris
Gobble, Gobble... "BOOM"!
Not sure how or what you learn about building and tuning a box call if a machine does all the work. Plus I would think there's no fun in doing it. JMO
Handmade is the soundboards are chiseled are sanded down to the callmakers liking, all cut from a block of wood. Forstner bits are sometimes used to hollow out the inside vs. a chisel. Old school chisel and knife all the way like Mr. Whitt, but being younger I go with the Forstner bit route. I have all the respect in the world for the Carving knide and chisel, because I don't have that much patience.. If they are checkered on the sides, then typically you wouldn't checker the sides with the chasis hollowed out because you could crack the sound boards. So usually the checkering is a sign of work gone in before the call maker hollows out the chasis. That's how I do it anyways.. More than one way to skin a cat though.
(http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t32/HoggleGobble/DoubleLuckSignatureSeries.jpg)
American Strutter--- Those look really good. Thanks for your reply. It looks like a box call can be made by a callmaker anywhere from using a chisel and knife all the way to a CNC machine and checkering machine. I guess they are all "handmade". Some just a lot more hand and less machine than others.
For me, machines are fine if they are guided by a human's hand. What level of handmade is up for debate. Is using a bandsaw okay when a knife can be used to carve a shape? CNC is really great and it takes a really good machinist to set them up to produce a good product so the human element is never gone. Having said this, a CNC can run as long as the power bill is paid and the materials are supplied. Mass production satisfies most of the population which is perfectly fine if they enjoy whatever the activity.
The artisan looks for something special and appreciated the last fer percentage points added by the handmade touch. The product is irrelevant and it doesn't matter if it is fine cigars, rare scotch, wine, beer, cars, clothing, or a call; the end user who appreciates fine details and the almost indescribable nuances of a product can understand the desire for the value added of the human craftsman who puts a bit of magic into their art. For most, maybe 99%, the mass production is more then enough and this 99% can't tell the difference. Yes, I am a bit of a snob.
Quote from: Kevin6Q on February 23, 2015, 07:24:07 PM
For me, machines are fine if they are guided by a human's hand. What level of handmade is up for debate. Is using a bandsaw okay when a knife can be used to carve a shape? CNC is really great and it takes a really good machinist to set them up to produce a good product so the human element is never gone. Having said this, a CNC can run as long as the power bill is paid and the materials are supplied. Mass production satisfies most of the population which is perfectly fine if they enjoy whatever the activity.
The artisan looks for something special and appreciated the last fer percentage points added by the handmade touch. The product is irrelevant and it doesn't matter if it is fine cigars, rare scotch, wine, beer, cars, clothing, or a call; the end user who appreciates fine details and the almost indescribable nuances of a product can understand the desire for the value added of the human craftsman who puts a bit of magic into their art. For most, maybe 99%, the mass production is more then enough and this 99% can't tell the difference. Yes, I am a bit of a snob.
Well said.
If you had a tree in your yard that needed cutting down, would you use:
A) an axe
B) a cross-cut saw
C) a chainsaw
So, you are saying some guys hollow out the entire trough of the box with just a chisel, start to finish? How do they keep the grain from running and gouging deeper into the sides??
I don't really care how a guy gets the meat out of a call. The call still has to be tuned. I have played some that I thought were just hollowed out, lid screwed on and called a turkey call though. You ever thought about the reason a Gibson looks the way it does? Pretty simple looking because it is one of the oldest calls. I've seen a few calls that were totally hand made and I can assure you they did not have the quality of sound that we enjoy today. Mabe one of the reasons you don't see that series of holes in the bottom of the call is tha call maker has ground that point off his forstner bit because it's not needed in a drill press. Many that I know use a drill press, bandsaw, table saw, sanders, cordless drills and a series of jigs to make their calls. After hollowing out the inside with the bits, then the chisel is used to reome the excess.
Wonder how they get the correct radius on those lids without flat spots in them???
Mark,
Maybe the term "Handmade" is a misnomer in this case and a better description would be "Handcrafted". I guess I am so old that these two terms have totally different meanings to me. Both have the human touch, one just uses a lot more technology.
Who hand chisels out their box calls now days. ??? Is this a thread about CNC vs. Calls built one at a time with some tools, ie. drill, sander, planner and does the term handmade include CNC cut boxes.
This is one of those question that comes out every year about this time. :deadhorse:
Calls build one at a time or a call that has been cut on a CNC machine it's a personal preference. I consider my calls handmade with the help of some equipment. Some equipment electrial some not. I try not to get bend around the apple tree over the term handmade.
If I had to define calls IMHO; There really is 4 type of calls
OLD Calls (built completely by hand with rasp, chisels and handsaw) very old mostly
Handmade (built one at a time with or without electrial tools)
CNC (set of measurement and number developed by the callmaker feed into a automated machine to produce a specific unfinished shape/box)
Mass Produced (machine or machines designed to perform all step of manufacturing with minial labor)
Richard,
Let me say upfront I know very little about woodworking. I am just trying to understand what callmakers like yourself consider handmade. Are calls that are made with a milling machine and/or CNC and checkered with a machine handmade in your opinion? I don't think there is a right or wrong answer. Technology is a wonderful thing. I know today's callmakers can turn out so many more calls than they could in the old days.
See above: Handmade (built one at a time with or without electrial tools)
Milling out the bore is just a high tech drill. Taking out small amount of wood on each pass. Leaving a cleaner and smoother bore. You must turn the handle>
CNC is even higher tech requiring you to enter into a program what wood you want removed from the block. The machine does the dirty work.
I don't own either my wife is to cheap to let me buy one. :TooFunny:
Keep in mine that not ever call blank will make a good call, some want even make a call at all. An all calls must still be tuned by the callmaker. The problem with productions calls is quality control. Some companies only look at the bottom line (profit). They cut into profit when they start culling out the bad calls. That's why most have went to some form of plastic and the cheapest wood they could find.
Thanks Richard. Excellent explanation even I can understand.
Quote from: M Sharpe on February 24, 2015, 08:01:28 AM
If you had a tree in your yard that needed cutting down, would you use:
A) an axe
B) a cross-cut saw
C) a chainsaw
So, you are saying some guys hollow out the entire trough of the box with just a chisel, start to finish? How do they keep the grain from running and gouging deeper into the sides??
I don't really care how a guy gets the meat out of a call. The call still has to be tuned. I have played some that I thought were just hollowed out, lid screwed on and called a turkey call though. You ever thought about the reason a Gibson looks the way it does? Pretty simple looking because it is one of the oldest calls. I've seen a few calls that were totally hand made and I can assure you they did not have the quality of sound that we enjoy today. Mabe one of the reasons you don't see that series of holes in the bottom of the call is tha call maker has ground that point off his forstner bit because it's not needed in a drill press. Many that I know use a drill press, bandsaw, table saw, sanders, cordless drills and a series of jigs to make their calls. After hollowing out the inside with the bits, then the chisel is used to reome the excess.
Wonder how they get the correct radius on those lids without flat spots in them???
Quote from: strutnrut on February 24, 2015, 01:47:53 PM
Who hand chisels out their box calls now days. ??? Is this a thread about CNC vs. Calls built one at a time with some tools, ie. drill, sander, planner and does the term handmade include CNC cut boxes.
This is one of those question that comes out every year about this time. :deadhorse:
Calls build one at a time or a call that has been cut on a CNC machine it's a personal preference. I consider my calls handmade with the help of some equipment. Some equipment electrial some not. I try not to get bend around the apple tree over the term handmade.
If I had to define calls IMHO; There really is 4 type of calls
OLD Calls (built completely by hand with rasp, chisels and handsaw) very old mostly
Handmade (built one at a time with or without electrial tools)
CNC (set of measurement and number developed by the callmaker feed into a automated machine to produce a specific unfinished shape/box)
Mass Produced (machine or machines designed to perform all step of manufacturing with minial labor)
Why does this matter and what is this debate really about? Do we as turkey hunters use the latest technology in guns, ammo, optics, camo, motor vehicles, etc. to hunt as opposed to a spear or bow and arrow as our only weapons? If a callmaker uses one piece of modern equipment in building his calls versus only hand tools is the call not handmade? If they buy lumber pre-cut instead of cutting down a tree and milling it with hand tools, is it not hand made? I'm not sure what the point of this discussion is about? I think it has run it's course and served no real purpose. The only thing I care about is whether or not the turkeys think the calls I have sound like a turkey. In the end that should be all any of us are concerned with.
You are correct mgm. As long as a callmaker tunes the box to kill turkeys the I don't seperate the didn't class of calls. I like the personal touch a callmakers add to the call. Never seen a machine sign a call in ink.
Did Piccaso paint with his fingers NO,
Did he paint with a brush Yes,
Why, because he didn't have a Spraygun. :TooFunny:
:icon_thumright: :icon_thumright: :icon_thumright:
Right on Richard!!!!
Me.....I have a box made back in the 40's and box calls made in 2015....they both kill birds....of course the older one is faded and worn with some dried out resin on the paddle, the issue has been discussed and cussed so many times over the years, I think we should recognize the artisan's craft either way.
Couldn't agree more Jack!!
The boat paddle call Neil Cost showed me in 1990? , he used a drill to hull out the base with , that call had no spring on the lid -
I think some of the mass produced calls like primos etc use a cnc , that's the only way to offer them affordably ,
All of the zinks and rnt duck and goose calls are cnc , but they are tuned in a special room by trained personal those are $150 and up ,
Custom is a loose term in call making , it's like the term "free" in cell phone minutes , it can mean anything
It's a business folks
In my personal opinion call makers should use nothing but there FINGERNAILS. In my opinion using tools is for WIMPS!!! And when your fingernails get too short to utilize then you should resort to mother natures second line of defense, TEETH. That's my definition of handmade. If it's not done that way then it's not a turkey call, and whomever owns a call that isn't prepared in this manner should label it BASTARD and send it to my house for disposal.
Quote from: Trumpetyelper on February 25, 2015, 03:05:45 PM
In my personal opinion call makers should use nothing but there FINGERNAILS. In my opinion using tools is for WIMPS!!! And when your fingernails get too short to utilize then you should resort to mother natures second line of defense, TEETH. That's my definition of handmade. If it's not done that way then it's not a turkey call, and whomever owns a call that isn't prepared in this manner should label it BASTARD and send it to my house for disposal.
GOOD TRY :TooFunny:
Let me start off by saying I'm not a call maker. But I built 4 box calls last year just playing around. It would be good for everyone to build at least one box call in there life by hand. I mean the only tools that was used were forester bits with a drill press to take the bulk of wood out. Table saw to shape the box up and cut out the lid. If everyone would make at least one they would have a lot more respect for call makers. I know mine probably look like junk. They sound good enough to kill an old gobbler though. This is a pic of the only one I have left. I gave the others to close friends and family members. (http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/02/25/eb119a321c8a58d1e3472702c2e6f4f2.jpg)
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/02/25/505ea0d03522a078c4895d4f453630d0.jpg)
I carved the remaining inside of the box out with wood chisel and pocket knife.
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/02/25/7ec4d4184d015b016d8d589bd6a03c97.jpg).jpg[/IMG]
Ericjames....awesome job!
That is definitely "Old School" and one end of the spectrum. Nice job. I know that took lots of time to make.
Quote from: Hillbilly yelper on February 25, 2015, 08:08:21 PM
Ericjames....awesome job!
Thanks, I'm gonna try to make a few this year out of ceder. It's fun messing with it, I know mine don't look good but hopefully with time they will look better. I want to try and make 2 or 3 every year if I can.
Quote from: hunter22 on February 25, 2015, 08:14:57 PM
That is definitely "Old School" and one end of the spectrum. Nice job. I know that took lots of time to make.
Thanks, it takes me about 7-8 hours from start to finish. Thats not getting in a hurry at all.
Quote from: American Strutter on February 23, 2015, 06:35:26 PM
Handmade is the soundboards are chiseled are sanded down to the callmakers liking, all cut from a block of wood. Forstner bits are sometimes used to hollow out the inside vs. a chisel. Old school chisel and knife all the way like Mr. Whitt, but being younger I go with the Forstner bit route. I have all the respect in the world for the Carving knide and chisel, because I don't have that much patience.. If they are checkered on the sides, then typically you wouldn't checker the sides with the chasis hollowed out because you could crack the sound boards. So usually the checkering is a sign of work gone in before the call maker hollows out the chasis. That's how I do it anyways.. More than one way to skin a cat though.
(http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t32/HoggleGobble/DoubleLuckSignatureSeries.jpg)
Great looking calls! :drool: