Does anyone know what size Hevi-shot 13 would be equivalent to Lonbeards #5?
7s
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No 5 leads weigh a little more than hevi 6s.
Another aspect that needs to be took into account is penetration. Lead tends to deform on impact, whereas HTL does not, therefore, (in most cases) allowing better penetration.
Quote from: Punisher on February 20, 2014, 05:46:44 PM
Another aspect that needs to be took into account is penetration. Lead tends to deform on impact, whereas HTL does not, therefore, (in most cases) allowing better penetration.
Exactly right.
These Long Beard loads are still lead at the end of the day. And they won't put Hevi-13 out of business either. Some may shoot them. But a lot won't.
Quote from: Punisher on February 20, 2014, 05:46:44 PM
Another aspect that needs to be took into account is penetration. Lead tends to deform on impact, whereas HTL does not, therefore, (in most cases) allowing better penetration.
That's great info!
Quote from: davisd9 on February 20, 2014, 04:40:18 PM
7s
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Nope, Hevi-13 isn't actually 13 g/cm^3, it's 12. Lead is about 11.3. No 5 lead is heavier than No 6 Hevi.
You could also just look here:
http://oldgobbler.com/Forum/index.php/topic,20425.0.html
A lead 5 @1200 fps will penetrate 1.92" of ballistic gel @ 40 yds
A HS 6 @1090 will penetrate 1.79"
A HS 7 @ 1090 will penetrate 1.47"
If you ran a HS 6 @ 1200 like from a MB, it would penetrate the same as the Pb 5...1.92"
Quote from: BandedSpur on February 21, 2014, 09:04:12 AM
A lead 5 @1200 fps will penetrate 1.92" of ballistic gel @ 40 yds
A HS 6 @1090 will penetrate 1.79"
A HS 7 @ 1090 will penetrate 1.47"
If you ran a HS 6 @ 1200 like from a MB, it would penetrate the same as the Pb 5...1.92"
Interesting info. Funny how we tend to think that lead bounces off of turkeys. If we keep our shots inside 40 yards then this topic isn't even necessary to discuss. Alot of times I think we were better off before Bansner started doing shotgun work in the 80's and got all this stuff started, we actually had to fool turkeys into coming in close. If it was a questionable shot then that gobbler lived to fight another day. That's why I am back to shooting lead and only lead, it's gotten way out of hand.
What does Pb 6's penetrate at 1200/ 40yds?
You could also just look here:
http://oldgobbler.com/Forum/index.php/topic,20425.0.html
Thanks klemsontigers7 for the link I hadn't seen that before.
Quote from: Punisher on February 20, 2014, 05:46:44 PM
Another aspect that needs to be took into account is penetration. Lead tends to deform on impact, whereas HTL does not, therefore, (in most cases) allowing better penetration.
This is exactly right, and the exact reason I believe lead actually hits harder than HTL. Think about it this way. What would you rather deer hunt with, a full metal jacket or a soft point bullet? One is just going to poke a narrow hole straight thru while the other is going to mushroom and expend it energy on target. I've killed birds with #7 Hevi and wasn't impressed. Every bird I have ever shot with #5 lead has been visibly impacted harder than anyone I've ever shot with Hevi 7.
I'm not even sure why they bother using copperplated shot, since the resin keeps the shot from deforming anyway.
Quote from: darn2ten on February 21, 2014, 06:18:18 PM
Quote from: Punisher on February 20, 2014, 05:46:44 PM
Another aspect that needs to be took into account is penetration. Lead tends to deform on impact, whereas HTL does not, therefore, (in most cases) allowing better penetration.
This is exactly right, and the exact reason I believe lead actually hits harder than HTL. Think about it this way. What would you rather deer hunt with, a full metal jacket or a soft point bullet? One is just going to poke a narrow hole straight thru while the other is going to mushroom and expend it energy on target. I've killed birds with #7 Hevi and wasn't impressed. Every bird I have ever shot with #5 lead has been visibly impacted harder than anyone I've ever shot with Hevi 7.
Think about this, I make a snow ball out of nice soft snow and then make one pack it together and let it freeze. Both are identical size. You stand 10 yards from me and I will throw the soft snow ball at you and then the frozen packed one. Which will hit harder? The one with give or the one that stays solid?
Soft core bullets for deer is a totally different thing because it deals with expansion and not just punching a hole through. Also, the FMJ will hit harder it just does not do as much damage because it does not expand. The mushroom is what you want so it will use all its energy for knock down and damage. Just like self defense bullets.
Lead shot will kill and there is no one that can say otherwise. If you want to shoot lead then shoot it. If you want to shoot heavier than lead then shoot it. Good luck!
Quote from: davisd9 on February 21, 2014, 06:54:37 PM
Quote from: darn2ten on February 21, 2014, 06:18:18 PM
Quote from: Punisher on February 20, 2014, 05:46:44 PM
Another aspect that needs to be took into account is penetration. Lead tends to deform on impact, whereas HTL does not, therefore, (in most cases) allowing better penetration.
This is exactly right, and the exact reason I believe lead actually hits harder than HTL. Think about it this way. What would you rather deer hunt with, a full metal jacket or a soft point bullet? One is just going to poke a narrow hole straight thru while the other is going to mushroom and expend it energy on target. I've killed birds with #7 Hevi and wasn't impressed. Every bird I have ever shot with #5 lead has been visibly impacted harder than anyone I've ever shot with Hevi 7.
Think about this, I make a snow ball out of nice soft snow and then make one pack it together and let it freeze. Both are identical size. You stand 10 yards from me and I will throw the soft snow ball at you and then the frozen packed one. Which will hit harder? The one with give or the one that stays solid?
Soft core bullets for deer is a totally different thing because it deals with expansion and not just punching a hole through. Also, the FMJ will hit harder it just does not do as much damage because it does not expand. The mushroom is what you want so it will use all its energy for knock down and damage. Just like self defense bullets.
Lead shot will kill and there is no one that can say otherwise. If you want to shoot lead then shoot it. If you want to shoot heavier than lead then shoot it. Good luck!
Well said Donald! :icon_thumright:
Quote from: davisd9 on February 21, 2014, 06:54:37 PM
Quote from: darn2ten on February 21, 2014, 06:18:18 PM
Quote from: Punisher on February 20, 2014, 05:46:44 PM
Another aspect that needs to be took into account is penetration. Lead tends to deform on impact, whereas HTL does not, therefore, (in most cases) allowing better penetration.
This is exactly right, and the exact reason I believe lead actually hits harder than HTL. Think about it this way. What would you rather deer hunt with, a full metal jacket or a soft point bullet? One is just going to poke a narrow hole straight thru while the other is going to mushroom and expend it energy on target. I've killed birds with #7 Hevi and wasn't impressed. Every bird I have ever shot with #5 lead has been visibly impacted harder than anyone I've ever shot with Hevi 7.
Think about this, I make a snow ball out of nice soft snow and then make one pack it together and let it freeze. Both are identical size. You stand 10 yards from me and I will throw the soft snow ball at you and then the frozen packed one. Which will hit harder? The one with give or the one that stays solid?
Soft core bullets for deer is a totally different thing because it deals with expansion and not just punching a hole through. Also, the FMJ will hit harder it just does not do as much damage because it does not expand. The mushroom is what you want so it will use all its energy for knock down and damage. Just like self defense bullets.
Lead shot will kill and there is no one that can say otherwise. If you want to shoot lead then shoot it. If you want to shoot heavier than lead then shoot it. Good luck!
I totally agree with a person shooting whatever they choose. The snowball doesn't make any sense to me. A soft snowball is going to bust apart on impact where as a frozen snowball will not and obviously hit harder. Where talking #5 lead vs #7 hevi here, the lead is not going to bust apart on impact. Both are going to penetrate, now lets take into account the hevi is doing 1090 fps. while the lead is doing 1200 fps. The #5 lead penetrates 1.92", and the Hevi 7 1.47" in BG at 40 yards. So which one hits harder?
Well I have personally witnessed Hevi-13 #7's out penetrating a lead copper plated #5 turkey load on real live turkeys. That's why I don't go on what the charts say about lead 5's, 4's or 6's when it comes to penetration data. They lie.
Quote from: ILIKEHEVI-13 on February 21, 2014, 07:35:12 PM
Well I have personally witnessed Hevi-13 #7's out penetrating a lead copper plated #5 turkey load on real live turkeys. That's why I don't go on what the charts say about lead 5's, 4's or 6's when it comes to penetration data. They lie.
Reckon that could be, but penetration still doesn't mean that a #7 with less surface area than a #5 hits harder. And like you at comparable yardages out around the 40 mark I have witnessed #5 lead performing better than #7 Hevi. Imo.
Quote from: davisd9 on February 21, 2014, 06:54:37 PM
Quote from: darn2ten on February 21, 2014, 06:18:18 PM
Quote from: Punisher on February 20, 2014, 05:46:44 PM
Another aspect that needs to be took into account is penetration. Lead tends to deform on impact, whereas HTL does not, therefore, (in most cases) allowing better penetration.
This is exactly right, and the exact reason I believe lead actually hits harder than HTL. Think about it this way. What would you rather deer hunt with, a full metal jacket or a soft point bullet? One is just going to poke a narrow hole straight thru while the other is going to mushroom and expend it energy on target. I've killed birds with #7 Hevi and wasn't impressed. Every bird I have ever shot with #5 lead has been visibly impacted harder than anyone I've ever shot with Hevi 7.
Think about this, I make a snow ball out of nice soft snow and then make one pack it together and let it freeze. Both are identical size. You stand 10 yards from me and I will throw the soft snow ball at you and then the frozen packed one. Which will hit harder? The one with give or the one that stays solid?
Soft core bullets for deer is a totally different thing because it deals with expansion and not just punching a hole through. Also, the FMJ will hit harder it just does not do as much damage because it does not expand. The mushroom is what you want so it will use all its energy for knock down and damage. Just like self defense bullets.
Lead shot will kill and there is no one that can say otherwise. If you want to shoot lead then shoot it. If you want to shoot heavier than lead then shoot it. Good luck!
Amen to that! I shoot both HTL and lead and know that both have their limitations. Shoot what you want and keep shots at an ethical range and everything will be alright.
Quote from: darn2ten on February 21, 2014, 07:55:19 PM
Quote from: ILIKEHEVI-13 on February 21, 2014, 07:35:12 PM
Well I have personally witnessed Hevi-13 #7's out penetrating a lead copper plated #5 turkey load on real live turkeys. That's why I don't go on what the charts say about lead 5's, 4's or 6's when it comes to penetration data. They lie.
Reckon that could be, but penetration still doesn't mean that a #7 with less surface area than a #5 hits harder. And like you at comparable yardages out around the 40 mark I have witnessed #5 lead performing better than #7 Hevi. Imo.
That's just like Ford vs Chevy. Your mileage may vary. I go by what I have firsthand knowledge of instead of what others may say. That's all a person can do. You can shoot lead if you wish. I'll stick with my Hevi-13 #7's and 6's. I'm a believer in what they can actually do when it comes to penetrating a turkey. I got the photos to back it up as well. Hevi-13 #7's will blow clean thru the head and neck a of a bird at 40yds like it was butter.
And to set the record staight, I could care less about how hard my pellets hit a bird at 40yds or whatever distance we are talking about. What I care most about is how well those pellets penetrate. Penetration is what kills a turkey and not knock down power.
Its simple shoot the lead into something comparable to bone that's what we are trying to destroy(skull neck bone etc.) it will deform bottom line, ballistic gel tests are comparable to soft tissue. That being said I have personally seen #7 hevi shoot completely thru turkey heads. I have also killed them with lead ranging from 4 thru 7.5s and there is no comparison to HTL. Lead is a good load for sure and will always kill turkeys but I prefer to step down from 5 lead to 7 hevi gain pattern density and penetration. Think about the hunting arrows used today micro diameter that weighs the same as old school aluminum, micro diameter will out penetrate them due to the decreased surface area of the shaft.
Hev-13 3" 2oz 7's and I'll just say 40yds to keep things civil here.
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/526/DSCF0070_Small_2_.jpg)
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/526/DSCF0073_Small_.jpg)
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/526/DSCF0066_Small_2_.jpg)
Some pellets even went all the way thru an out the other side of the breast.
I can show you them as well. Lead 5's wouldn't even come close.
I would hate to see what my 835 and Star Dot choke would have done shooting my 300325 3.5" 2.25oz #7 loads. That bird would have been burnt toast instead of just toast.
And that was a 24lb bird, too, weighed by the MO Dept of Conservation on their digital scale. That bird died in mid air.
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/526/DSCF0039_Medium_.jpg)
Apples and Oranges. Two different materials with different properties.
Lead works....and now it works better due to pattern density, not pellet density.
A Lead pellet is still a Lead pellet. That's not necessarily a bad thing. It is what it is.
I love Lead #5's if the pattern density is good enough. All kinds of wild game has fallen to Lead #5's throughout the last century or two. It's easy on your wallet. It's easy on chokes and barrels too.
Quote from: 3" 870 Shell Shucker on February 21, 2014, 08:31:37 PM
Apples and Oranges. Two different materials with different properties.
Lead works....and now it works better due to pattern density, not pellet density.
A Lead pellet is still a Lead pellet. That's not necessarily a bad thing. It is what it is.
I love Lead #5's if the pattern density is good enough. All kinds of wild game has fallen to Lead #5's throughout the last century or two. It's easy on your wallet. It's easy on chokes and barrels too.
Good post
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Look guys, I'm not hear to tell anyone what to shoot. You folks that want to shoot these Long Beard loads by all means have fun with it and use them. But don't for a second think they will take the place of htl loads. These loads are still lead no matter how much sugar you try and coat them. Know your limits and don't try and think that the money you save shooting them vs Hevi-13 loads will get you farther killing distances like they are trying to claim. That's no different than some folks who shoot lead #7 turkey loads. Your gonna have a yardage limit when it comes to penetration real quickly regardless of how many shot you put in a 10" circle.
Quote from: davisd9 on February 21, 2014, 08:44:45 PM
Quote from: 3" 870 Shell Shucker on February 21, 2014, 08:31:37 PM
Apples and Oranges. Two different materials with different properties.
Lead works....and now it works better due to pattern density, not pellet density.
A Lead pellet is still a Lead pellet. That's not necessarily a bad thing. It is what it is.
I love Lead #5's if the pattern density is good enough. All kinds of wild game has fallen to Lead #5's throughout the last century or two. It's easy on your wallet. It's easy on chokes and barrels too.
Good post
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
yup. Very well stated.
Quote from: 3" 870 Shell Shucker on February 21, 2014, 08:31:37 PM
Apples and Oranges. Two different materials with different properties.
Lead works....and now it works better due to pattern density, not pellet density.
A Lead pellet is still a Lead pellet. That's not necessarily a bad thing. It is what it is.
I love Lead #5's if the pattern density is good enough. All kinds of wild game has fallen to Lead #5's throughout the last century or two. It's easy on your wallet. It's easy on chokes and barrels too.
I killed a boat load with 5 and 6 lead. A few a little further than I thought and had to choke em out. My first one was killed with a 20 gauge #7.5 dove load at 33 yards lol. I then moved up to Hevi and now been throwing tss for 4 years. Don't really need it and don't use it cause of its extended range capabilities as my average kills are in the upper 20ish yard range. It's just nice throwing several hundred pellets at their head and not worrying about manufacturers changing components. Nothing will score barrels if loaded properly. Lead works. Always has and always will.
Quote from: ILIKEHEVI-13 on February 21, 2014, 08:19:33 PM
Hev-13 3" 2oz 7's and I'll just say 40yds to keep things civil here.
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/526/DSCF0070_Small_2_.jpg)
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/526/DSCF0073_Small_.jpg)
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/526/DSCF0066_Small_2_.jpg)
Some pellets even went all the way thru an out the other side of the breast.
I can show you them as well. Lead 5's wouldn't even come close.
I would hate to see what my 835 and Star Dot choke would have done shooting my 300325 3.5" 2.25oz #7 loads. That bird would have been burnt toast instead of just toast.
And that was a 24lb bird, too, weighed by the MO Dept of Conservation on their digital scale. That bird died in mid air.
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/526/DSCF0039_Medium_.jpg)
A lead 5 wouldn't of come close to what? Again, how dead is dead. I guess that maybe I should start posting pics of all the birds that I've killed with 5 lead. Guess what, there just as dead as that one. My argument was at 40 yds. I never said anything any other way. I'm not in to long range turkey sniping. At 40 yds. penetration is a none issue with 5 lead. If I had to kill turkey at 50+ yds. I'd get a rifle.
Your the one that started talking about a lead 5 hits harder. That's knockdown power. And again, knockdown power or hitting hard has very little to do with killing turkeys. Penetration is the key word on what dies and what lives.
And yes lead 5's will kill turkeys. Nobody is disputing that fact. But lead again won't kill as well, or as good, or as cleanly, or however you want to try and say it as htl shot.
:popcorn:
I guess will have to agree to disagree. Never once said #7 Hevi wouldn't kill a turkey, I've killed 4 with it. Just said at 40 yds. and in I personally like to performance of 5 lead vs 7 Hevi. The # 7's are the only ones I don't like, I have nothing against the # 6's and traded all my 7 to a buddy for the 6's. Now in the 20 gauge it's Hevi 6's all day long. But in the 12 with the new LB shell getting around 200 in the 10 at forty pattern density of Hevi is out the window too.
Simmer down fellers, turkey season is right around the corner, and we are almost there. Both lead and HTL will kill at the determined ethical range (40 yards) so really everyone is just arguing for the sake of arguing. I shoot Hevi Shot. You know why? Because I can. I love the good patterns it gives me, I know it will blow ones brains out, and I found some for a killer deal so I have a stash of it. I wouldn't hesitate to use any of the LB shells, but I love my Hevi. It's all in what you like to use, because you have to remember that 90% of the time we are calling turkeys in to 20-30 yards, so in that aspect, I could kill them with some 7.5 bird shot.
Agreed. I myself prefer Hevi-13 #7's in 3" or 3.5". It does way more for me than lead 5's ever did. And there is no sugarcoating that statement.
I shoot hevi cause I do not like to wait on a flopping turkey. :D
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Not sure if lead #5's are equal to Hevi #7's or not, but I know Hevi #7's do quite the job for me.
(http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn119/redrum_4187/Turkeys/P1020490.jpg)
Quote from: ILIKEHEVI-13 on February 21, 2014, 08:10:05 PM
And to set the record staight, I could care less about how hard my pellets hit a bird at 40yds or whatever distance we are talking about. What I care most about is how well those pellets penetrate. Penetration is what kills a turkey and not knock down power.
So you can't kill a turkey with blunt force trauma???
A baseball bat to the head won't kill them because there is no penetration???
Afterall, "Penetration is what kills a turkey and not knock down power."
I've personally had much better performance "knocking birds down" with lead compared to hevi shot. I've tried it, put up fantastic patterns, and killed a few birds with it......but the heavier and faster lead loads "hit them harder" and put them down better for me. Can't wait to try some Longbeard ammo this spring. Done for good with Hevi shot here.
Science shows lead 5's hit harder than hevi 7's...but it doesn't penetrate as well.
Science shows it penetrates better....but, but no it doesn't.
I have better luck with lead...but here's a picture of a dead bird.
Here are some good shooting lead loads...but, but then I have to change my user name.
klemsontigers7 and BandedSpur answered the original question in posts 6 and 7.
All this crap is going to make my head explode. Sometimes turkey hunting forums take the fun out of turkey hunting.
As the saying goes, opinions are like ...... Everybody has one.
I'm not saying anybody is wrong or right, everyone of these freaking loads will kill turkeys at such and such distance, with such and such energy, blah blah blah.
If you hunt with lead fine. Hevi fine. Nitros fine. Handloads fine. Like Nike says, Just Do It.
Please stop with the damn bickering and trying to one up each other with your knowledge of lead and HTL
When I read threads like this I just want to throw my computer and iPhone in the trash. Better yet, shoot them with a turkey load.
Patterning turkey guns aside, turkey hunters as a whole put way too much time, thought, and effort into what it does or doesn't take to kill a turkey. Every old school turkey killer that came before us showed us that time and time again.
Quote from: CASH on February 22, 2014, 07:14:18 AM
When I read threads like this I just want to throw my computer and iPhone in the trash. Better yet, shoot them with a turkey load.
Which performs better on computers and iPones, lead or HTL? :smiley-char092:
:blob10: :blob10: :blob10:
Quote from: CASH on February 22, 2014, 07:14:18 AM
All this crap is going to make my head explode. Sometimes turkey hunting forums take the fun out of turkey hunting.
As the saying goes, opinions are like ...... Everybody has one.
I'm not saying anybody is wrong or right, everyone of these freaking loads will kill turkeys at such and such distance, with such and such energy, blah blah blah.
If you hunt with lead fine. Hevi fine. Nitros fine. Handloads fine. Like Nike says, Just Do It.
Please stop with the damn bickering and trying to one up each other with your knowledge of lead and HTL
When I read threads like this I just want to throw my computer and iPhone in the trash. Better yet, shoot them with a turkey load.
Patterning turkey guns aside, turkey hunters as a whole put way too much time, thought, and effort into what it does or doesn't take to kill a turkey. Every old school turkey killer that came before us showed us that time and time again.
Thank you. If pregnancy was this complicated it would never happen if two people kept arguing the point. :happy0167:
I may be completely out of the loop here, but do they even offer a straight Hevi-13 #7 or is the #7 only offered in 12g/cc?
Well I actually thought it was a pretty good thread. That's how we learn. I myself have learned quite a bit over the years by hanging around folks a lot smarter than me.
Quote from: ILIKEHEVI-13 on February 22, 2014, 09:25:13 AM
Well I actually thought it was a pretty good thread. That's how we learn. I myself have learned quite a bit over the years by hanging around folks a lot smarter than me.
I completely agree! Its sites like this that help make me a better turkey hunter.
Quote from: ILIKEHEVI-13 on February 22, 2014, 09:25:13 AM
Well I actually thought it was a pretty good thread. That's how we learn. I myself have learned quite a bit over the years by hanging around folks a lot smarter than me.
Everyone is smarter than me. ;)
Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk 2
Well I will say this right now. We are extremely fortunate to have guys like Clark Bush here at OG. The man is a walking encyclopedia of knowledge when it comes to turkey guns, loads etc... :z-winnersmiley:
What was the original question?