I was discussing with another member about the possibility of more wounded birds due to the increased pattern density of the new lead shells such as Win. Long Beard and Federal Turkey thugs. I admit, I am seeing some fantastic patterns at 40 yards. Some perhaps even better than some heavier than lead (HTL) patterns. Although I am excited to see these shell manufacturer start to get into the game of good patterns, at the end of the day, the downrange penetration of lead vs HTL is really not even comparable. I have always thought that lead was good out to about 35 yards, but if you really wanted to stretch your killing range, HTL was the only lethal choice day in and day out. Yes ,there is always going to be that hunter that killed a bird with lead at 70 yards, but on average I have always felt lead was a 35 yard and in shell. Here are a few pictures showing some penetration test a friend of my did. Both are at 40 yards. I know it's not exact science, but it does make me wonder if we should lower our expectations of these new lead loads to what they should be, a very dense pattern under 40 yrds.
What are your thoughts?
(http://i1031.photobucket.com/albums/y372/Gophert/Gun%20Patterns/reloadingpenetration008_zpsbd6c8445.jpg) (http://s1031.photobucket.com/user/Gophert/media/Gun%20Patterns/reloadingpenetration008_zpsbd6c8445.jpg.html)
(http://i1031.photobucket.com/albums/y372/Gophert/reloadingpenetration009_zps8da304ba.jpg) (http://s1031.photobucket.com/user/Gophert/media/reloadingpenetration009_zps8da304ba.jpg.html)
lol !!! out to 40 lead will kill every bird walking!!! come on hevi is not a have to have shell!! a turkeys neck is not near as hard to break as a piece of metal is to penetrate not a fair comparison. :popcorn:
Quote from: knightrider on January 20, 2014, 01:18:49 PM
lol !!! out to 40 lead will kill every bird walking!!! come on hevi is not a have to have shell!! a turkeys neck is not near as hard to break as a piece of metal is to penetrate not a fair comparison. :popcorn:
Not the point I was trying to ask. I'm not asking if you think I am right or wrong. I realize lead will kill at 40. I am asking do you think these new lead loads will cause hunters to have a false sense of security on long range shots?
no more than any other shell that is out there, people are always going to push the limits!! we both know if they keep at 40 and in no problem its those who want to stroke their ego and kill something instead of letting it walk at 60 yards that wound birds with all shells made!! :emoticon-animal-005:
Yes they will, especially if they are using lead 6s. #5s I have always felt comfortable at 40 but 6s should be 35 or under, possibly even 30 or under. Plenty here will say I killed this at this range and that and that range with this shell, but I have had to run down turkeys before at overestimated ranges with 6s that friends shot and I do not like to run. If one uses lead then great, but be ethical and logical with it and the same with anyone that shoots a heavier than lead shell.
Quote from: knightrider on January 20, 2014, 02:11:21 PM
no more than any other shell that is out there, people are always going to push the limits!! we both know if they keep at 40 and in no problem its those who want to stroke their ego and kill something instead of letting it walk at 60 yards that wound birds with all shells made!! :emoticon-animal-005:
The problem lies in the marketing. Everyone wants HTL results without HTL price.
Sooooooooo, Winchester comes out with a fantastic marketing ploy that is telling the avg. Joe turkey hunter it doesn't matter if it is lead, I can whack ol' Tom at 60 yards 'cause I'm shooting Winchester Longbeards!
Now, I shoot HTL. I will not, I repeat will not knowingly shoot at a turkey beyond 40 yards. Heck, I like them at 25-30, which is a perfectly fine range for any shell, but I love the density of HTL.
I also know if I did make a mistake, and it was a little beyond 40, my shell will anchor him.
This shell is gonna cause problems. Mark my words.
Yes lead will kill turkey's out to 40 yards all day. I was crow hunting today and killing stupid crows at 50 yards with 7.5 shot through a modified choke. I know they are not as tough as turkeys, but it is proportional when you factor in turkey chokes and big shotshells. I do think that the Long beards will give people a false sense of security simply because the box says you can kill them at 70 yards away!
:popcorn:
I believe the real point is anyone that markets a lethal killing range beyond 40 yards encourages a false sense of security and Hevi-Shot has and now Winchester is guilty of it. We are humans and it is natural for us to want more so we push our limits. Mark Banser helped open the door of maximizing your killing range with his shotgun work he did in the 80's, custom choke maufacturers followed suit and ammo companies next. Then with the introduction of HTL in the early 2000's we took it even further. Know your gun and know your limits and if you want to push those limits then be able to face the consequences, i.e. an unethical shot at a ridiculous range. It all comes down to choice. My 2 cents!
Quote from: trkehunr93 on January 20, 2014, 04:31:42 PM
I believe the real point is anyone that markets a lethal killing range beyond 40 yards encourages a false sense of security and Hevi-Shot has and now Winchester is guilty of it. We are humans and it is natural for us to want more so we push our limits. Mark Banser helped open the door of maximizing your killing range with his shotgun work he did in the 80's, custom choke maufacturers followed suit and ammo companies next. Then with the introduction of HTL in the early 2000's we took it even further. Know your gun and know your limits and if you want to push those limits then be able to face the consequences, i.e. an unethical shot at a ridiculous range. It all comes down to choice. My 2 cents!
Good post!
I'd guess that most of the dudes that will attempt to make the crazy long shots have probably done it before anyway.
Well We have had the stuff for sometime testing it. Now I will say it has made go wow. Now I have said from the first shot we was in trouble. I think it is a dead bird all day long at 40 yards. It is a missed bird at 25 and in if you don't know your gun. I think that it has a safety net built in that if you miss read the bird that will give you kills past that mark. NOW THE THING WITH THAT IS IF MISS READ KILL HIM SAY 43. NEXT TIME IT WILL BE 45 THEN 48 AND SO ON. Folks have got into killing paper not birds. This stuff is like HTL it will kill PAPER birds a long ways. This shell is like HTL loads you have got to know your gun and your set up in the woods. Folks need to spend more time with this shell at 20 yards then at 40 yards. I have tested this stuff and have came to the conclusion that it is almost a between 30 an 40 yard shell for the average hunter. It is a out to 40 yards shell for the guys that spend the time to learn gun.
Just saw a Mag Blend Commercial that showed lethal range to 75 yards. It's advertisement, they bank on the "drool factor" when putting these ads together. I've killed a truckload of turkeys with #6 Winchester leads, most of them 3 inch. Two years ago I started using hevi 6s in my new 870, I've never shot a bird past 35 yards with hevi shot. I know every bird would have been dead with lead, but I am totally impressed with the devastation from hevi! They have yet to flop when I hit them with hevi!
Personally, I really try to limit my shots to 40 and under, lead or hevi. Isn't it more fun to have them at 25 yards than at 60?
Quote from: jblackburn on January 20, 2014, 10:29:07 PM
Just saw a Mag Blend Commercial that showed lethal range to 75 yards. It's advertisement, they bank on the "drool factor" when putting these ads together. I've killed a truckload of turkeys with #6 Winchester leads, most of them 3 inch. Two years ago I started using hevi 6s in my new 870, I've never shot a bird past 35 yards with hevi shot. I know every bird would have been dead with lead, but I am totally impressed with the devastation from hevi! They have yet to flop when I hit them with hevi!
Personally, I really try to limit my shots to 40 and under, lead or hevi. Isn't it more fun to have them at 25 yards than at 60?
always has been alot more fun at 25yds than 60
25 yards spittin and a drumming, just got done hammering 3 times at your last call. You swear you felt the ground shake! Now thats a picture for a turkey hunting advertisement.
Does not matter if longbeard , Hevi 13 or Fed. HW is your paint brush of choice. 8)
Nah , not just a picture that is a freakin Rembrandt ! :fud:
Quote from: SumToy on January 20, 2014, 09:32:14 PM
Well We have had the stuff for sometime testing it. Now I will say it has made go wow. Now I have said from the first shot we was in trouble. I think it is a dead bird all day long at 40 yards. It is a missed bird at 25 and in if you don't know your gun. I think that it has a safety net built in that if you miss read the bird that will give you kills past that mark. NOW THE THING WITH THAT IS IF MISS READ KILL HIM SAY 43. NEXT TIME IT WILL BE 45 THEN 48 AND SO ON. Folks have got into killing paper not birds. This stuff is like HTL it will kill PAPER birds a long ways. This shell is like HTL loads you have got to know your gun and your set up in the woods. Folks need to spend more time with this shell at 20 yards then at 40 yards. I have tested this stuff and have came to the conclusion that it is almost a between 30 an 40 yard shell for the average hunter. It is a out to 40 yards shell for the guys that spend the time to learn gun.
Well said.
Thanks,
Clark
We are not the issue, we are the minority. We pattern our guns, we know for the most part what shot size will do what where and more importantly we know what is BS. It's the new guys/people coming into the sport that don't have someone to really help them that get caught up in this stuff. We all want them gobbling down the barrel at us, they just want to kill something for the most part, we all do but you know how it is being new. They see this 75yd range and that's the extra edge, they don't have to be as good as a seasoned guy to get one close, they just need to be able to see one. They shoot, they miss or worse injure one and they are out of the game. We look at LBXR as a shell that fills in holes @ 40yds and in, they see it as a way to be more successful by stretching their range. Same reason lots of new guys buy a magnum rifle, they think it gives them more range/more advantages.
We were talking about this I need it now mentality in the gym the other day, people want the most for the least. They want to have 5% bodyfat, bench 500lbs, run like a deer, and train for 30 mins a day. It's no different than most of the new stuff created for hunting.
Sad thing is it is on the box of shells in t places talking the long 60 yard stuff. Now that is the only problem I see with it. It is marketing and new guys fall for the marketing BS. It looks good, someone said it will on TV, and the guys that built it said it will so it has to. :TrainWreck1:
I am ready to get the phone calls this year. All the guys have got tied up in the 40 yard number games. (Part my fault because I post it but that what it takes to sale). Think we will see a lot of missed birds or Bloody cant post on web pics.
Great Discussion everyone!!!!!!!!!
I think Tom Foolery is right and so are you SumToy. I even think we as experienced shooters sometimes contribute to the madness by posting up these patterns for everyone to see. However, I think by doing that, we do clarify what it takes to get those patterns and maybe that is a win. Hopefully the newcomer will see that some Winchester Long Beard in papaw's old 12 ga with a fixed modified choke is not the key to killing a turkey a super long distances.
As most of you know, I handload TSS in all my turkey shells. It's not that I want to sniper a bird at 70+ yards like HeviShot says is capable, but because I enjoy all aspects of the sport. To me, you have to be a turkey crazed nut (guilty) to load shells that cost in the range of $10 per shell, but it's more of a hobby and adds to my enjoyment of the sport. I can only think of one time when I have shot a bird over the 40 yard mark. I too like them up close and rattling the ground with a gobble because that's what makes my heart beat like guy who drinks 10 5 hour energy shots. However, I know when I hit the woods, pretty much down to the pellet count how my gun will perform at all distances. Why? Not because I saw it on a box or on a forum, but because I have shot it already. Carry on!
Quote from: gophert on January 22, 2014, 12:11:44 PM
Great Discussion everyone!!!!!!!!!
However, I know when I hit the woods, pretty much down to the pellet count how my gun will perform at all distances. Why? Not because I saw it on a box or on a forum, but because I have shot it already.
Well Stated! X-2
Yeah, and after 50 + years I had finally trained my birds to hang up at 45-50 yds. Now I've got to retrain them again and my spring time events are becoming somewhat numbered. Oh well. :gobble: :OGani: :newmascot:
No, we aren't getting carried away at all. If we truly mean all that 40 Yard Limit stuff we talk about, and there are Lead loads on the shelf that will shoot 110+ at 40 with #4's, 130+ at 40 with #5's, or 150+ at 40 with #6's..............why do we need to keep using HTL for 40 Yard shots?
I've gotten above 130 with #5 Win Sup HV in my BPS, and above 130 with #5 Win SuperX in my 870. I've also gotten 140 with the #6 Thugs in my 870. All 3" Shells. I haven't even tried the Long Beard shells yet. I'm through buying expensive HTL.....................as long as Lead is legal.
Quote from: 3" 870 Shell Shucker on January 22, 2014, 05:08:55 PM
No, we aren't getting carried away at all. If we truly mean all that 40 Yard Limit stuff we talk about, and there are Lead loads on the shelf that will shoot 110+ at 40 with #4's, 130+ at 40 with #5's, or 150+ at 40 with #6's..............why do we need to keep using HTL for 40 Yard shots?
I've gotten above 130 with #5 Win Sup HV in my BPS, and above 130 with #5 Win SuperX in my 870. I've also gotten 140 with the #6 Thugs in my 870. All 3" Shells. I haven't even tried the Long Beard shells yet. I'm through buying expensive HTL.....................as long as Lead is legal.
That's how I feel also.. Heck I don't care if it's legal or not. If lead become illegal, I will shoot it until I run out.
My level of concern is rising since I see more and more articles about shooting at turkeys beyond 40, 50 and even 60 yards. The last 3 or 4 hunting/shooting magazines I have received have either had an article or referenced a video in which those very long shots are discussed as normal with a very short disclaimer about not really advocating "long" shots.
OG set the standard several years ago and asked its members to refrain from discussing shots over 40 yards or posting pictures of patterns shot over 40 yards. That is a responsible position to take and I applaud Shannon for taking a stance, long before these new shells were introduced.
As has been stated, we who pattern our guns and act responsibly are not the problem. New hunters and shooters however may be wooed by the thought of shooting that bird that's just a little too far. Several years about I wrote an article that was published by T&TH about not playing to the crowd.
What I tried to convey in that article was that turkey hunting should be an enjoyable sport that allows us to spend time in the woods and see the wonders of nature. When a hunter feels pressure to kill a bird and show all of his friends, playing to the crowd, it becomes a competition of sorts and loses the real value of the experience.
Each of us must examine his conscience and think about what we say and do, here, on other sites and with our friends and hunting buddies. We need to especially careful about what we say to new hunters who will look to us for guidance and acceptance.
Years ago a skybuster in the goose pits, a hunter who shot over his limit or one who took irresponsible shots was not accepted by most hunters. I'm not advocating shunning hunters but I am advocating trying to educate those with less experience and being a good example to everyone.
Thanks,
Clark
Quote from: SumToy on January 20, 2014, 09:32:14 PMFolks need to spend more time with this shell at 20 yards then at 40 yards.
Interesting observation. Well said William. :icon_thumright:
I have been reading this thread and look at this way. Ammo manufactures are of course going to say there shell is the best or better than others shells (It's called marketing!) but seasoned hunters know when it is time to pull the trigger and when its not period. If you are a hunter like myself who has tried that 50 or so yard shot to watch that big gobbler roll over and get up and fly away, it makes you sick in the stomach and you say to yourself, (Damn i shouldn't have shot I knew it was to far!!!) well guess what if it happens again and he is to far, sit back and just watch what the Good Lord Gave Us ( The sport of hunting!) and just wait for that perfect shot next time! I guess what im trying to say is a good hunter won't shoot past his or hers limitations no matter what shell they are shooting. I love the sport of turkey hunting!! and try to do the best and make the best decisions everytime im out. I think to adverstise 50, 60, and 70 yards shots are crazy to say the least, get to know your gun and what it will do. I THINK THAT IF PEOPLE WOULD SHOOT A SHELL NO MATTER WHAT IT IS AT 50, 60, and 70 YARDS I THINK YOU WOULD SOON FIND OUT THAT IT IS NOT CAPABLE OF CLEANLY TAKING A TURKEY, and also take into consideration that if you would shoot 60 yards and get say 50-80 pellets in a 10 inch circle thats fine but that is usually in an open gun range with no bushes sticks limbs and other obsticles that you face in a real life hunting situation. GOOD LUCK TO EVERYBODY I HOPE YOU HAVE A GREAT SEASON, AND JUST REMEMBER GO AND HAVE FUN AND ENJOY THE DAY!!!!!!
Well said Clark
Good discussion guys!!
I know people who have taken and will continue to take excessively long shots at turkeys. Most have no clue how their guns pattern at any distance! They usually don't know much about their setups gun,choke,shells. Most of the time they live by the it only takes a couple pellets in the head to kill a turkey thought. They have some success, and plenty of excuses for missing/wounding turkeys. I have a good friend who is this way and I have quit hunting with him due to this matter.
Well said Clark and SumToy!!! The idea of the game is to bring that ole Tom as close as possible to you without it jumping into your lap!! Go out and enjoy the woods and all God's creatures. John
I agree with Chatterbox on this one, I shoot HEVI just incase I miss judge the distance on a bird. Any of us that have turkey hunted for sometime know we've all done this and seen it done. The final result we all look for is a humane kill on a bird we've called in to range. This is where knowing your gun and the pattern it shoots is critical. The comfort of knowing if I misjudge i'll still make a good kill is what the HEVI-shot gives me. Plus they don't flop after the shot!
to me, 40 yds. is too far to shoot a turkey, the fun is getting him in close, ( i wanna be looking him dead in the eye when i pull the trigger), if i can't get him close i'll come back & try him again another day, i would advise anyone not to shoot at a turkey further than 40 yds, to me the fun is calling him in, if you called him in to 40, you oughta be able to get him closer, at 40 you MIGHT kill him but i would much rather go home knowing i let him walk than wondering "did i wound him and he's gonna end up feeding coyotes?" an ol' tom deserves better than that, a good rule of thumb, WHEN IN DOUBT, DON'T....
Quote from: knightrider on January 20, 2014, 02:11:21 PM
no more than any other shell that is out there, people are always going to push the limits!! we both know if they keep at 40 and in no problem its those who want to stroke their ego and kill something instead of letting it walk at 60 yards that wound birds with all shells made!! :emoticon-animal-005:
Exactly what I was thinking. Everyone wants to think that just because your using HTL that it doesn't matter how far the bird is. Yeah it may kill one stone dead but if everyone kept it 40 and in there would be far less injured birds.
Lot's of very valid opinions here!!! :) I have only been hunting turkeys for 10 years and in that 10 years I have never had to shoot over 25 yards. I hold myself (firmly) to the 40 yard rule and I wish others would simply do the same. I understand wanting to push the limits...but why is it necessary?? The biggest fun of the hunt to me is not the kill but the chase and getting that bird in close!!! I watched a guy kill a bird last year at what turned out to be 72 steps (I told him to hold till the bird crossed the 40 yard mark)....luckily he got a few lucky pellets and killed the bird instead of injuring it. It made me VERY VERY angry and RUINED the hunt for me!!! If someone wants to push the limits by shooting paper targets then have at it....I'm all for it!!! BUT, it is my personal belief that we as turkey hunters owe RESPECT to the animal we are killing by doing EVERYTHING in our power to make clean kills!!! How about promoting better woodsmanship and better calling skills as opposed to being able to shoot a bird at 60+ yards!!! I am anxious to try the new Win long beard load but I will pattern it at 20-40 yards...if the bird stands and gobbles his brains out at 60 yards then he wins that day....no big deal! :icon_thumright:
Quote from: drum817 on February 01, 2014, 09:42:59 PM
Lot's of very valid opinions here!!! :) I have only been hunting turkeys for 10 years and in that 10 years I have never had to shoot over 25 yards. I hold myself (firmly) to the 40 yard rule and I wish others would simply do the same. I understand wanting to push the limits...but why is it necessary?? The biggest fun of the hunt to me is not the kill but the chase and getting that bird in close!!! I watched a guy kill a bird last year at what turned out to be 72 steps (I told him to hold till the bird crossed the 40 yard mark)....luckily he got a few lucky pellets and killed the bird instead of injuring it. It made me VERY VERY angry and RUINED the hunt for me!!! If someone wants to push the limits by shooting paper targets then have at it....I'm all for it!!! BUT, it is my personal belief that we as turkey hunters owe RESPECT to the animal we are killing by doing EVERYTHING in our power to make clean kills!!! How about promoting better woodsmanship and better calling skills as opposed to being able to shoot a bird at 60+ yards!!! I am anxious to try the new Win long beard load but I will pattern it at 20-40 yards...if the bird stands and gobbles his brains out at 60 yards then he wins that day....no big deal! :icon_thumright:
This!^^^^^^^^^^^^
Quote from: drum817 on February 01, 2014, 09:42:59 PM
Lot's of very valid opinions here!!! :) I have only been hunting turkeys for 10 years and in that 10 years I have never had to shoot over 25 yards. I hold myself (firmly) to the 40 yard rule and I wish others would simply do the same. I understand wanting to push the limits...but why is it necessary?? The biggest fun of the hunt to me is not the kill but the chase and getting that bird in close!!! I watched a guy kill a bird last year at what turned out to be 72 steps (I told him to hold till the bird crossed the 40 yard mark)....luckily he got a few lucky pellets and killed the bird instead of injuring it. It made me VERY VERY angry and RUINED the hunt for me!!! If someone wants to push the limits by shooting paper targets then have at it....I'm all for it!!! BUT, it is my personal belief that we as turkey hunters owe RESPECT to the animal we are killing by doing EVERYTHING in our power to make clean kills!!! How about promoting better woodsmanship and better calling skills as opposed to being able to shoot a bird at 60+ yards!!! I am anxious to try the new Win long beard load but I will pattern it at 20-40 yards...if the bird stands and gobbles his brains out at 60 yards then he wins that day....no big deal! :icon_thumright:
Glad there are a lot of guys out there that have their heads on straight. Makes me proud to stand alongside ethical hunters because the lord knows there are a lot of them out there that don't care to do whatever they gotta do to kill. Even if it means injuring 1 or in some cases even more animals to do it.
Having been in the retail side of all this hype and marketing, I can tell you it is not the guys that come into a store, look quietly at the shelf and tell you they're fine and don't need help when you ask them and then, once they see what they're looking for, wave you over, point to the load they want and say "I'll take x boxes of the ______ turkey loads".
It's one of two types of people-and they can go one of two ways with how they look at hunting...
It's the guy that comes in, either alone looking like he's standing in a snake pit, wondering what the heck he should buy and asks you a million questions and wants you to show him every gun on the rack.
Then...there's the one that comes in with his "big, bad hunter" friend that tells him he NEEDS this gun or that gun and load or he'll never shoot a turkey because that's what some fat slob on TV siad he should get. I'll take the UNEDUCATED hunter looking for help any day. They are a blank slate and if I can just nudge him or her in the right direction then I looked at it as helping to make yet another ethical, responsible turkey hunter.
I have shotgun/load combos that WILL kill a turkey far beyond what MOST hunters would and should even consider being a slam dunk shot. You've seen the patterns. But I NEVER go into the woods with the metality that I'm just out there to kill a bird. I trully enjoy the outdoors and second maybe only to the fall change, the spring woods is about the only place I want to be. I choose to see if I can get that bird so close I can see him blink. I trully enjoy getting that bird so close that when I squeeze the trigger, there is a better than poor chance that that birds head just might come off!
Have I taken 4o yard shots? Sure I have, but the vast majority have been 30 yards and under, I've been turkey hunting for 30 years now, you're going to get all manner of shots if you hunt long enough. Have I taken shots further? Yes, but not purposley-I either miss-judged the range or on ONE, single occasion I got antsy with a bird I had hunted for 3 years straight and never could get come in-always hung up just out of range and avoided decoys like the plague! So, and I am none too ashamed to say this, I used my brother in law as as sacrificial lamb so to speak and put him in a spot I KNEW the bird would see and put out a couple deeks and when he heard my calls and saw those decoys, he skirted them and came right to me. I still feel bad doing it and would have been more than happy had he gotten a shot, but that bird and me had a date with the dinner table. ;}
I've always looked for producing more effective patterns out to 40yds. This shell will get it done without paying the high price of HTL or TSS. Disappointed the Drury brothers are out there promoting long range shooting. I've seen bad results with folks trying to take long range shots with HTL out of customized shotguns..guns that turn amazing patterns at 40yds. Best thing we can do as turkey hunters is let folks know not to believe the lie that they can consistently kill turkey's at 60+ yards with lead.
Quote from: gophert on January 20, 2014, 01:59:51 PM
Quote from: knightrider on January 20, 2014, 01:18:49 PM
lol !!! out to 40 lead will kill every bird walking!!! come on hevi is not a have to have shell!! a turkeys neck is not near as hard to break as a piece of metal is to penetrate not a fair comparison. :popcorn:
Not the point I was trying to ask. I'm not asking if you think I am right or wrong. I realize lead will kill at 40. I am asking do you think these new lead loads will cause hunters to have a false sense of security on long range shots?
I see your point that the tight patterns might make it seem like lead would be effective past the point where penetration will have diminished to far.
I would offer that this has been a problem for quite some time with smaller pellets, such as lead 6s, giving paper patterns that look good at distances beyond the effective range of the individual pellets.
In the end BOTH pattern AND pellet effectiveness have to be considered, not just one or the other.
Quote from: natman on February 05, 2014, 02:00:53 PM
Quote from: gophert on January 20, 2014, 01:59:51 PM
Quote from: knightrider on January 20, 2014, 01:18:49 PM
lol !!! out to 40 lead will kill every bird walking!!! come on hevi is not a have to have shell!! a turkeys neck is not near as hard to break as a piece of metal is to penetrate not a fair comparison. :popcorn:
Not the point I was trying to ask. I'm not asking if you think I am right or wrong. I realize lead will kill at 40. I am asking do you think these new lead loads will cause hunters to have a false sense of security on long range shots?
I see your point that the tight patterns might make it seem like lead would be effective past the point where penetration will have diminished to far.
I would offer that this has been a problem for quite some time with smaller pellets, such as lead 6s, giving paper patterns that look good at distances beyond the effective range of the individual pellets.
In the end BOTH pattern AND pellet effectiveness have to be considered, not just one or the other.
I would have to say..40yds or less..if you are shooting a Pb turkey load with 4's,5's, or 6's and the pattern is good..that's a dead turkey. Going past 40 is risky and 60-70 is kinda ridiculous. The good news is with a 40 limit, the Win longbeard loads may give you an extra 5 yds or so if you misjudge. 40 and inside has worked well with me regardless of the gun/shell/choke combination.
Quote from: allaboutshooting on January 22, 2014, 07:04:30 PM
What I tried to convey in that article was that turkey hunting should be an enjoyable sport that allows us to spend time in the woods and see the wonders of nature. When a hunter feels pressure to kill a bird and show all of his friends, playing to the crowd, it becomes a competition of sorts and loses the real value of the experience.
:icon_thumright: :icon_thumright: :icon_thumright: :icon_thumright:
I'm far from an expert, and I haven't patterned all the loads on the market. Not even close really...but I can't help but think that to a certain extent the HTL phenomena is a bit of hype. Hevi 13 is like what 10% more dense? Does that really equate to drastically greater penetration at turkey killing range? I've seen some of the ballistics and it does seem like there's a good deal more retained energy at 40 yards with the tungsten shot, but I wish I could run the numbers myself.
10% isn't even a good tip...
According to randy wakemen:
http://www.chuckhawks.com/no-tox_shotshells.htm
1. lead is approximately 11.1g/cc
2. Hevi 13 is around 12g/cc
3. Federal heavy weight (which people don't like because of the flight control wad) is around 15g/cc.
Just doesn't seem like that big a difference to me. I dont know. I know duck hunters would be thrilled to get their lead shot back.
Also, those pics of the sheet metal, looks like one is labeled #6, and the other #5. That's not really an apples to apples comparison.
Getting back to the authors original question, yes I am worried that the LB's will give people a false sense of security because it's such a dense pattern. Lead just doesn't have the punch to consistently kill longer range birds. The problem is unless you have a rangefinder with you, many of us will be off 5-10 yards on our guess as to distance. For that reason I've been using the Federal HW's for the last 4 years, and know how much harder they hit a bird.
Agree with almost everyone here so far, and this may be semi repetitive...I like the 40 yds and closer game. That said, we all know that some gun/she'll combos will kill beyond that. The HTL has more killing power than lead. If you can duplicate pellet count in a HTL an lead load, then the HTL has more energy at its target. What this means to me is this...HTL has a greater fudge factor than lead at those greater distances beyond 40. Keep it to 40, and pretty much everyone is ok no matter what you choose. I like the extra fudge factor of HTL in case I make a yardage mistake. Greater fudge factor costs money in this case though, and that I do not particularly like. If you go to the woods thinking you have a 70 yard setup, then you WILL have trouble eventually. Just my 2.
I killed quite a few birds with Win HV Lead before the HTL shells came along.
I'm sure the LB's are good lead shells, for $24/10, they had better be.
I'll test the LB vs. H-13, and the one that performs the best will make the team.
H-13 has been good to me in tough conditions: bad weather in CA, NE, KS, MO, IA, TX, etc.
I'd be hard pressed to think a lead load will beat a HTL load across the board...
I know which shell will prevail, but I'll test anyway...
mudhen
Quote from: drum817 on February 01, 2014, 09:42:59 PM
Lot's of very valid opinions here!!! :) I have only been hunting turkeys for 10 years and in that 10 years I have never had to shoot over 25 yards. I hold myself (firmly) to the 40 yard rule and I wish others would simply do the same. I understand wanting to push the limits...but why is it necessary?? The biggest fun of the hunt to me is not the kill but the chase and getting that bird in close!!! I watched a guy kill a bird last year at what turned out to be 72 steps (I told him to hold till the bird crossed the 40 yard mark)....luckily he got a few lucky pellets and killed the bird instead of injuring it. It made me VERY VERY angry and RUINED the hunt for me!!! If someone wants to push the limits by shooting paper targets then have at it....I'm all for it!!! BUT, it is my personal belief that we as turkey hunters owe RESPECT to the animal we are killing by doing EVERYTHING in our power to make clean kills!!! How about promoting better woodsmanship and better calling skills as opposed to being able to shoot a bird at 60+ yards!!! I am anxious to try the new Win long beard load but I will pattern it at 20-40 yards...if the bird stands and gobbles his brains out at 60 yards then he wins that day....no big deal! :icon_thumright:
:agreed: Very well written & to the point. I do believe that alot of hunters on here feel this way also. Like stated before the problem is the young hunters that don't know any better and that will buy into the hype. Every year there is a group of us guys here in NY that rotate (or not depending n how many kids that are interested) taking new hunters out and teaching them how to hunt. This means teaching them ethics, woodsmanship, marksmanship, safety, calling, etc. We try to teach them that its not about the kill, but instead its about enjoying nature and the creatures that God has provided for us. Lets face it, I would rather they learn from the beginning instaed of learning by wounding these beautiful birds or any other animals that we all so love. What really ticks me off is the grown men (I have one here at work who just buys a choke & a box of shells & hits the woods) who bye into it and don't take the time to know their weapon & its capabilities. I just remember what my grandpa told me years ago "cant fix stupid". These are the ones that give us respectful hunters a bad rap.... Good luck this upcoming season gentle men....
For those of you who will truly limit your shots to 40 and in, and I applaud you for doing so, would probably be better served by a shell other than Winch LBs. The Fed Thugs or Winch HV, XX, Graybox, etc. will throw killing patterns to 40 with no problem and will be a lot more forgiving between 20 and 40 yds.
Same thing has been going on with the ballistic reticles for deer. Bolt this on and shoot out to 600 yards.
I think if you are upset with Winchester stop buying any of their ammo. Man up and vote with your wallet. Don't just sit back and peck on a keyboard. Wishing never changed anything.