With all this rage on the massive pellet counts people are getting with #7s, I'm wondering how much knock down power you are giving up not going with 4s or 5s? Not trying to start any arguments, but i would think punching holes in paper is different than a turkey head. Have there been any studies done on the kinetic energy of different pellet sizes at different distances?
Oh yes and plenty of charts , etc. in archives . The Fed HW #7s are much heavier than lead shot so the #7 is equal to or greater than a #5 lead shot going at the same speed and penetration is greater due to a smaller surface area .
Turkeys look like they are being slammed when these loads hit them.
You are not being forced to use smaller shot but when shooting these loads it just makes sense.
The concept of "knock down power" with tiny shot is really a falacy. What small shot does is penetrate organs and bone. It can break some bone but it is too small to impart shock into organs, thus no "knock down power". It causes tissue damage thru penetration, not shock.
Now a number 7 HTL pellet weighs about what a lead 5 pellet does. A HTL 6 pellet weighs about what a lead 4 pellet does. However the smaller shot has less wind resistance in flight. Therefore they carry equal or more speed at a given distance than their larger equivilent weight lead pellet. The smaller pellet also penetrates better because it has less resistance due to its smaller size but equal weight. Add to that the number of pellets in an equal weight load and you are likely to get a 3 to 1 increase in hits with the smaller HTL shot. On top of that, HTL shot is harder, does not deform as bad in the barrel, has less wind resistance, so it flies truer resulting in tighter patterns. All this means equal or better penetration and higher number of wound channels and penetrated bones.
There is no escaping that HTL outperforms lead.
I'm talking about comparing apples to apples, not apples to oranges. Throwing lead out of the argument totally, knock down power of different sized Hevi 13 or heavyweight loads.
OK, didn't realize you were talking about all HTL shot. I shoot 6 because I prefer Winchester and they don't make 7. But the same issues apply. Most 6 HTL pass clean thru head and necks. So would a 5 or 4 of course. They are not being stopped therefore they are not imparting much energy into tissue, but they are making wound channels. You can argue the larger shot would make slightly larger wound channels but I can argue the smaller shot are making more wound channels and because of the higher numbers, are more likely to find something significant. Lets face it, to anchor a turkey where it is, you have to penetrate skull and neck bones. I prefer higher number of hits to ensure more find these small vital targets.
Quote from: Skeeterbait on February 15, 2013, 07:13:46 PM
OK, didn't realize you were talking about all HTL shot. I shoot 6 because I prefer Winchester and they don't make 7. But the same issues apply. Most 6 HTL pass clean thru head and necks. So would a 5 or 4 of course. They are not being stopped therefore they are not imparting much energy into tissue, but they are making wound channels. You can argue the larger shot would make slightly larger wound channels but I can argue the smaller shot are making more wound channels and because of the higher numbers, are more likely to find something significant. Lets face it, to anchor a turkey where it is, you have to penetrate skull and neck bones. I prefer higher number of hits to ensure more find these small vital targets.
Skeeter is 100% correct. With #6 HTL, there is no need for larger HTL shot. Plenty of knockdown with those 6's! :icon_thumright:
The birds I have seen smoked with Hevi13 #7's couldn't have been knocked down any harder or any deader with 4, 5, or 6 shot. Some under 40 and some over 40 and all looked like they got kicked in the face by a angry donkey. Shot 1 bird with it's right side facing me and when cleaning found that the pellets had broken the left wing, no need to shoot heavier.
Knockdown power has nothing to do with killing turkeys. It's all due to pattern density and shot penetration.
I myself would take these much denser 7 shot patterns below over any less denser larger shot pattern anyday. Both are gonna kill turkeys, but I'd bet money the 6's won't kill them any deader than what these would.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v204/brad541thb/DSCF2946Medium.jpg)
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/526/DSCF00593.jpg)
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/526/medium/DSCF0056_Small_.jpg)
When Hevi-13 7's do this kind of damage at a little over 40yds, what more could a person ask for?
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/526/medium/DSCF0070_Small_2_.jpg)
Quote from: ILIKEHEVI-13 on February 15, 2013, 10:57:36 PM
I myself would take these much denser 7 shot patterns below over any less denser larger shot pattern anyday. Both are gonna kill turkeys, but I'd bet money the 6's won't kill them any deader than what these would.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v204/brad541thb/DSCF2946Medium.jpg)
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/526/DSCF00593.jpg)
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/526/medium/DSCF0056_Small_.jpg)
Those 7s will not kill them any deader than the 6s either.
I don't know dead is dead. But what I do know is that I can get more vital hits with the 7's than the 6's. For every hit that most guys can get with a 6 load of Hevi-13, I can typically put a littler over 60% more shot in that area if you do the math. Now if that ain't overkill I don't know what is. Most guys do good to even get 220 shot with 6's in a 10" at 40yds with a Hevi-13 load. I can typically put 350 with these loads I currently have. Yep both will kill. But 7's will be more nastier regardless if the 6's do penenetrate slightly better. Heck I shot plum through the head and neck on that bird above that was 40yds plus. And that was with my 870 and 3" load. Imagine what the 835 and the 3.5" load of 7's would have looked like.
I think you centered that bird above.
I can tell you this. When I hit the target board at 40 yards with my Win XRHD, it gets knocked right over.
Any shell clocking in at over 1200 FPS is gonna do some serious damage, especially if it's HTL.
Quote from: ILIKEHEVI-13 on February 16, 2013, 03:40:02 AM
I don't know dead is dead. But what I do know is that I can get more vital hits with the 7's than the 6's. For every hit that most guys can get with a 6 load of Hevi-13, I can typically put a littler over 60% more shot in that area if you do the math. Now if that ain't overkill I don't know what is. Most guys do good to even get 220 shot with 6's in a 10" at 40yds with a Hevi-13 load. I can typically put 350 with these loads I currently have. Yep both will kill. But 7's will be more nastier regardless if the 6's do penenetrate slightly better. Heck I shot plum through the head and neck on that bird above that was 40yds plus above. And that was with my 870 and 3" load. Imagine what the 835 and the 3.5" load of 7's would have looked like.
We have been respectfully disagreeing on this for a while hevi and like I have told you 7s will kill, but they are just are not for my hunting style. You have very impressive patterns, but cardboard is not what I like seeing in pictures.
Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk 2
Quote from: 3" 870 Shell Shucker on February 16, 2013, 04:49:17 AM
I think you centered that bird above.
I ate that birds lunch. But this was a pattern I shot earlier that same spring with these same lot # of shells that was sent at that 24lb gobbler. This should show you approximately the pattern results. But it was a little cooler that early in the morning. But even a 250 to 270 pattern would have been devastating.
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/526/DSCF00316.jpg)
Ok David no cardboard here.
Trust me these Hevi-13 7's will do what any Win 6 load out there will do and then some for killing any gobbler. I get a chuckle out of guys that refuse to think pattern density from 7's aren't going to kill as good as 6's. Your 100 feet per sec advantage load of 6's don't mean much to me when you think about it. Take a look. I'll take the 7's anyday.
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/526/medium/DSCF0066_Small_2_.jpg)
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/526/medium/DSCF0070_Small_2_.jpg)
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/526/medium/DSCF0073_Small_.jpg)
Now this will prove what I am about to show you or anyone else on here.
Now remember this bird was hit at 40yds with a smudge factor of 2+yds for the sake of this site.
Now this is where I hit the bird with the center of my pattern, and I was aiming at the middle of the neck. Notice what side it's on.
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/526/medium/DSCF0058_Medium_.jpg)
Now here's the biopsy results from the other side.
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/526/medium/DSCF0069_Small_.jpg)
And I will add I am by no means putting down 6's. They will work fine. But don't think for a second they will give you a killing edge over the 7's. That's all. The proof is in the photos above.
I think we are getting away from the original posters question.
Yes, if you look far enough back there used to be charts showing penetration comparisons between the different HTL loads. All of the HTL loads are impressive and hit and penetrate extremely well. i seem to remember winchester extended loads 5s penetrating very well like the TSS. It's really more of a personal preference on your shot size.
Some guys run 5 and 6 s because that's what they are used to or thats the size that their states allow. Some guys like to shoot 7s, some like to use TSS nines.
I think the explanation that your looking for would be this. At 40 yards, all the different HTL loads hit hard, penetrate, and pattern well. On this board we don't speak much of anything over 40, so if you have all these loads that can kill at that distance switching to 7s gives you the advantage of having higher numbers in your pattern. Higher numbers lead to more lethal hits. If a box of federal heavyweight 6 cost the exact same as the 7s, but the 7s will put 50 more pellets in a ten ring why not take advantage of that. They all have knock down power at 40 yards.......even the 7s.
One of the other reasons for taking advantage of shooting the smaller pellets is that if you miss judge distance. The HTL loads all have enough pellet energy to kill past 40, even though we don't discuss that to often on here. So for sakes of this, lets just say you mis judge distance by 5 or 6 yards over 40, you will have less pellets in your pattern than at 40. Shooting the higher pellet count small shot, gives you the advantage of retaining more pellets in your core pattern so that even a mistake can be a ethical kill shot.
savduck,
That pretty much hit the nail on the gobbler. :z-winnersmiley:
And really the 7's may put upwards of a 100 more shot in a 10 ring. Makes sense to me.
Quote from: ILIKEHEVI-13 on February 16, 2013, 10:08:48 AM
savduck,
That pretty much hit the nail on the gobbler. :z-winnersmiley:
And really the 7's may put upwards of a 100 more shot in a 10 ring. Makes sense to me.
I agree, I think you and Del both made a solid case for HTL 7. By choosing HTL 7 you are not sacrificing anything to achieve the denser pattern results, which is to the heart of the OP question, and why I shoot Hevi 3-2-7 exclusively.
With lead there is always a trade off -- 4s for more energy less pattern, 6s for better pattern less energy, settle on 5s for little of both worlds. HTL 7 takes that issue right off the table.
These hw shells are flying so fast there's no question of the knockdown iv seen turkeys rolled at 50 with #7.
You guys have got it. Like I said the majority of those hits up and down that neck on that bird above were complete pass-throughs. That neck was ate up. And what impressed the heck out of me was the pellets that shot plum through the breast and out the opposite side. That bird flopped, but he was dead before he hit the ground. And you got to remember you get a lot of snowman pellets which are pellets stuck together with the 7's that are actually about the size of a lead 4 or 5 in a shell. So really your shooting a duplex type load anyway for those that want the bigger size shot.
#7's work plenty well for me. This one was taken at 35 yards.
(http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn119/redrum_4187/Turkeys/P1020490.jpg)
#6 or #7 htl loads , if patterned and said patterns are centered on point of aim, will kill any turkey in North America every shot every time inside of 40 yards. I've killed turkeys with both as have others on this board. I like #7 inside of 40 yards and every turkey I've shot at the last 3 years with that load were drt. The same can be said for # 6 in my experience