I watched a hunting show the other nite featuring a man I consider one of the better ambassadors of our sport. He was mule deer hunting with a bow and took a 100 yard shot resulting in a clean kill.
I was able to contact him thru facebook and I asked if he considered that shot at least a little risky. He replied with a definitive NO since he practiced that shot on a regular basis.
I'm not doubting that many bowhunters can hit a target at that distance with practice but a live animal adds more variables to the situation. It takes an arrow about 3 seconds to travel 100 yards, more that enuff time for that animal to take a step or turn a different angle that could result in a wounded and lost animal.
What's your opinion?
I dont bow hunt anymore, but I did at a time when it wasnt all that popular. Bowhunters were in the minority. The whole purpose of bow hunting was to get animals close.
With todays modern equipment it is physically possible to make those shots, but I agree Barry. I think taking those kinds of shot is not in the best interest of the animal. To me that shot is all about making a TV show and not about having the respect of the animal at heart and getting it in close.
I see to many bad shots and bad choices on TV shows these days. Shots taken just to get footage for TV. This is the kinda of crap that makes the rest of us look bad as hunters.
I personally see two problems with that.
1. Taking the shot.
2. Showing it on television.
" A man's got to know his limitations."
If you can do it on a consistant basis, it is ethical.
I don't condon it, but the guy obviously knows what he can and cannot do.
So, he either got lucky, or knew what he was doing.
On T.V., and especially on your own show, they're not going to show the misses at that yardage.
There are more than a few bowhunters that have hit and lost a deer at way closer ranges. That's where Dirty Harry had it right..JMHO and YMMV...Mike
P.S. I am not a bow hunter, because I know my limitations. ;D
I can't say that this is unethical. I limit myself to 40 yd bow shots because that is as far as I can shoot consistently without worries. Some guys I shoot with practice a 80 to 100 yards and they shoot as well at those distances as I do at 40. As for taking a shot at an animal at those distances i feel it should be on a situational basis only. Shooting at a bedded animal or one that is standing and feeding is much different than shooting at an animal that is alert or aware of your presence. However, to each his own.
Good thing you didn't say he was shooting at a turkey, because the mods would remove the thread. ;)
Quote from: Neill_Prater on August 12, 2012, 01:18:29 PM
Good thing you didn't say he was shooting at a turkey, because the mods would remove the thread. ;)
:TooFunny: :icon_thumright:
I consider myself a slightly above average archer (very humble). I practice long range shooting all the time (50+ yards) and by mid season I'm consistant. The farthest I've ever shot a deer in 20 plus years of bow hunting was, 27 yards. Personally 50 yards at a deer is way too far! JMO. Am I capeable of taking a shot at a deer at 50? The answer is Yes. Will I take that shot? absolutely NOT! These animals are constantly moving and changing angles. I've missed close shots! I've lost deer that I'm still not happy about. How many times have we said, we should have waited for him take one more step. Or just let him walk. What I'm saying is, Stuff happens! We been doing it for a long time,and it'll probably happen again.
We all owe it to ourselves and the game we pursue. We must practice,learn our equipment to become proficient archers. Lets not forget our limitations and commonsense part. A 100 yard shot in archery Is a great shot, IN ARCHERY GOLF!
JMO
Quote from: Hognutz on August 12, 2012, 12:50:54 PM
" A man's got to know his limitations."
If you can do it on a consistant basis, it is ethical.
I don't condon it, but the guy obviously knows what he can and cannot do.
So, he either got lucky, or knew what he was doing.
On T.V., and especially on your own show, they're not going to show the misses at that yardage.
There are more than a few bowhunters that have hit and lost a deer at way closer ranges. That's where Dirty Harry had it right..JMHO and YMMV...Mike
P.S. I am not a bow hunter, because I know my limitations. ;D
We had this discussion about a 98 yard crossbow shot too or +50 yard turkey shots, just because you can doesnt mean you should especially on a TV show that will get some fool thinking he can do it too...
I'm not a great shot with a bow so for ME, taking a 40 yard shot would border on unethical because I'm not good enough consistently to pull it off under real world circumstances with live animals.
Anyone that's ever had a deer duck under their arrow at 25 yards can relate to this....bows (no matter what FPS they shoot) are not guns- meaning the flight time on an arrow traveling 100yds would give a deer plenty of time to move slightly enough to change the point of impact, even if the archer was on target 100% of the time at the range. Also, i've shot on enough windy days to know that it doesnt take much of an unexpected breeze (which, being from the Western U.S myself, I would speculate is fairly common in Mule Deer Country) to change where the arrow is going to hit. The vital area you can hit and CLEANLY kill an animal the size of a mule deer is relatively small when you're using archery equipment.
Regardless of all else, if you are representing the rest of us hunters by putting yourself out there on t.v for the general public to see, use a little more caution before taking and showing that shot. It sends the wrong message IMO because you never know who is watching and may see that and go try it themselves without enough practice etc...
This pretty much sums up some responsibility issues we have been dealing with for some time now
Now someone wisely pointed out very shortly and bluntly two issues doing the deed , and doing it in a public manner
Ask your selves some personal questions ........
How many times do you think that some of the people that watched the money making show will try and repeat the same stunt out in the woods on a live animal?
How many gut shots aka cripples will that produce?
Threads like this one are arbitrary from the git-go. There is no proper answer to how far a given person can or cannot shoot, responsibly, in any venue.
People target shoot rifles at 1000 yards, everyday, and are deadly accurate. Does this mean that they cannot kill a buck at 500 yards? I can't really say.
Same goes for bowhunting. At what range is the shot deemed "unethical." Is that your decision, or the guy that's doing the shooting?
I agree, wholeheartedly, that a 100 yard bow shot is not the norm. I also agree that it should not be shown on T.V.
What I don't agree to, is to have somebody else, not capable of the shot, tell the guy that is capable, that the shot he took was unethical, regardless of the distance.
Quote from: Old Gobbler on August 12, 2012, 03:43:35 PM
This pretty much sums up some responsibility issues we have been dealing with for some time now
Now someone wisely pointed out very shortly and bluntly two issues doing the deed , and doing it in a public manner
Ask your selves some personal questions ........
How many times do you think that some of the people that watched the money making show will try and repeat the same stunt out in the woods on a live animal?
How many gut shots aka cripples will that produce?
Well stated. I don't have a problem if the guy practices and knows he can make a shot. The problem I have with it is putting it on tv where thousands of people see it and say " wow, I'm going to try that." This forum has great people and hunters. We are about 1% of the hunting world in this country. We here know that if we can't shoot at a certain distance not to attempt it. Now I live in PA with one of the largest hunting populations in the country and I have ran into countless of rude , clueless , 3 day a year hunters . I just pray they don't try what they see on tv.
Quote from: Hognutz on August 12, 2012, 04:00:53 PM
Threads like this one are arbitrary from the git-go. There is no proper answer to how far a given person can or cannot shoot, responsibly, in any venue.
People target shoot rifles at 1000 yards, everyday, and are deadly accurate. Does this mean that they cannot kill a buck at 500 yards? I can't really say.
Same goes for bowhunting. At what range is the shot deemed "unethical." Is that your decision, or the guy that's doing the shooting?
I agree, wholeheartedly, that a 100 yard bow shot is not the norm. I also agree that it should not be shown on T.V.
What I don't agree to, is to have somebody else, not capable of the shot, tell the guy that is capable, that the shot he took was unethical, regardless of the distance.
Yes he had practiced at that range and was comfortable taking the shot BUT making that shot consistantly on the practice range is one thing. What I'm saying is that too many variables are in involved to make that shot consistantly in a hunting situation.
I forgot to add that he held his bow at full draw for over 2 minutes before the shot and the deer was quartering away at a sharp angle.
All I'm saying, Barry, is that he made the shot. Full draw for two minutes, quartering away, 100 yards. He did something right. One person in a hundred or one in a thousand, he made the shot. Maybe, just maybe, the guy can shoot a bow, and hit what he is shooting at, at 100 yards.
I bet the deer thought that the shot was unethical!!
You're right Mike, he made the shot
Quote from: Hognutz on August 12, 2012, 04:00:53 PM
What I don't agree to, is to have somebody else, not capable of the shot, tell the guy that is capable, that the shot he took was unethical, regardless of the distance.
Quote from: barry on August 12, 2012, 05:08:50 PM
Quote from: Hognutz on August 12, 2012, 04:00:53 PM
Threads like this one are arbitrary from the git-go. There is no proper answer to how far a given person can or cannot shoot, responsibly, in any venue.
People target shoot rifles at 1000 yards, everyday, and are deadly accurate. Does this mean that they cannot kill a buck at 500 yards? I can't really say.
Same goes for bowhunting. At what range is the shot deemed "unethical." Is that your decision, or the guy that's doing the shooting?
I agree, wholeheartedly, that a 100 yard bow shot is not the norm. I also agree that it should not be shown on T.V.
What I don't agree to, is to have somebody else, not capable of the shot, tell the guy that is capable, that the shot he took was unethical, regardless of the distance.
Yes he had practiced at that range and was comfortable taking the shot BUT making that shot consistently on the practice range is one thing. What I'm saying is that too many variables are in involved to make that shot consistently in a hunting situation.
I forgot to add that he held his bow at full draw for over 2 minutes before the shot and the deer was quartering away at a sharp angle.
I'm not judging or being argumentative because we don't do that here on O.G ;D BUT.... Does anyone here think that someone can shoot a group CONSISTANTLY with there bow the size of there fist at 100 yards? I'm sorry fellas, I'm a realist. It's highly unlikely.
I know that I couldn't.
This guy made one shot into an area the size of his fist, I guess. Was it luck or was it skill? I don't know, and I don't really care.
I will add long bow shots to my list of forum no-no's. It now includes politics, religion, homosexuality, race, and longer then normal bow shots. ;D
Quote from: Hognutz on August 12, 2012, 05:51:26 PM
I know that I couldn't.
This guy made one shot into an area the size of his fist, I guess. Was it luck or was it skill? I don't know, and I don't really care.
I will add long bow shots to my list of forum no-no's. It now includes politics, religion, homosexuality, race, and longer then normal bow shots. ;D
Very good, I got a chuckle outta that! :TooFunny: I think theres only 86 day til the election :TooFunny: :smiley-patriotic-flagwaver-an
B-Well
My OG Brothers
Johnny
Barry.
Sorry this thread went south on you, because of me. We are looking at the same picture, but from two different perspectives. I meant no harm.
I love you like a brother, and hope that I'm still on the Christmas card list..
Mike
This guy can hit his target at 200 yards. Can he group at 100yds. Yes he can.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fgl-KQt0-AI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fgl-KQt0-AI)
Fred Bear shot a javelina on film 70 yards away with a recurve instinctively.
I'm with Hognutz on this one. Don't use your own abilities to judge the hunting ethics of another.
I shoot out to 80 yards.
For elk I'll let that arrow fly 10/10x if the conditions are right.
For deer, my self imposed limit is 60. I consistently shoot 3" 6 arrow groups at that range.
Most people don't have the dedication or commitment to become that proficient so they use their own limitations to determine what is and what is not ethical for others.
Dan Evans of trophy taker shoots a 3" group at 180 yards with a bow.
Ethics are relative to the shooter's ability, confidence and evaluation of the animal's demeanor prior to loosing the arrow.
I get the argument about someone being confident due to practice and spectacular groupings etc......at the shooting/ practice range.
I'd be willing to bet that the OVERWHELMING majority of these practices were in a very controlled environment with plenty of time to think clearly and account for variables....not the least of which is a live WILD ANIMAL sitting at the end of the target range. Regardless of all else, there is no target that I know of that has the ability to think for itself and decide to move at random times.
I don't know for sure but I figure at 100 hundred yards with a bow you need to know for sure the animal is 100 yards and not 101.
Quote from: Hognutz on August 12, 2012, 05:24:16 PM
All I'm saying, Barry, is that he made the shot. Full draw for two minutes, quartering away, 100 yards. He did something right. One person in a hundred or one in a thousand, he made the shot. Maybe, just maybe, the guy can shoot a bow, and hit what he is shooting at, at 100 yards.
I bet the deer thought that the shot was unethical!!
Naw.. it hit him in the goodies,He just thought about dying..But if he would have taken a step after the shot was released..(they have been known to move on occasion} It would have hit him in the guts..Then he would have thought the shot was unethical.
Quote from: redleg06 on August 12, 2012, 08:16:54 PM
I get the argument about someone being confident due to practice and spectacular groupings etc......at the shooting/ practice range.
I'd be willing to bet that the OVERWHELMING majority of these practices were in a very controlled environment with plenty of time to think clearly and account for variables....not the least of which is a live WILD ANIMAL sitting at the end of the target range. Regardless of all else, there is no target that I know of that has the ability to think for itself and decide to move at random times.
I can't speak for others but anytime I take a long shot or have observed animals harvested at long range, there is/was plenty of time to assess the animal's demeanor and conditions.
Quote from: guesswho on August 12, 2012, 12:45:02 PM
I personally see two problems with that.
1. Taking the shot.
2. Showing it on television.
:agreed: 100%. You know that someone will try this and might end up with the animal being wounded and suffer a painful death. One shot, one kill. that is ethical. If you feel the risk is greater than normal, dont take the shot. At 100 yds the shot will always be risky. He shouldnt even have tried it.
Quote from: Hognutz on August 12, 2012, 07:17:08 PM
Barry.
Sorry this thread went south on you, because of me. We are looking at the same picture, but from two different perspectives. I meant no harm.
I love you like a brother, and hope that I'm still on the Christmas card list..
Mike
No problems here Mike. I asked for everyones opinion. If we were all in agreement all of the time it would be kinda dull. Oh yeah...I'll put you back on the card list ;D
I appreciate that, Barry..Thanks
Have to agree with Guesswho's initial response in regards to taking the shot and showing it on T.V. As O.G. pointed out, this will result in a lot of "Heck I can do that" attempts out in the woods.
Here is something I have personally seen. When I was shooting 3-D archery comp in highschool, I worked the shoot where we posted up a McKenzie 3-D lifesize elk at approximately 50 measured, taped off yards. We put an orange bio-hazard sticker right on the 12 ring (which is dead center heart) and whoever got the closest to the center won a good chunk of cash. You will not believe how many folks, after shooting 25 targets could not judge the distance on that elk and clearly missed the elk, shot it in the leg, neck, butt, etc.......
With a bow, at that 100 yd mark, you better be slinging some speed to have enough energy to do killing damage. This old boy is perfectly happy with an up close and personal experience on a good buck.
If the guy would have gut shot the deer or missed, would it have made his TV show?
I shot bows for years, many thousands of arrows. Shot on ranges with 100 yard targets. There are LOTS of issues with this shot being taken on live game, despite this dudes so called skill. Wind, animal moving, arrow being out of tune, loss of kinetic energy, yardage guessing error, shooter loosing his form after holding the bow back for two minutes, etc. Ethical? That's up to the man taking the shot. Me I think it's plain stupid and disrespectful to the animal.
How many have been to a tournament, how many guys are shooting those long shots with their hunting set ups.....very few. Many have extended stabilizers and specialized sights, which is highly unlikely to be on a hunting bow.
The one thing I was taught from an early age by my father, was respect for the game. One shot, one kill. If the shot was iffy don't take it. Do bad shots happen, yep you bet. I've had some, but not because I was worried about making a TV show.
The whole ethical, not ethical deal has so many variables, lack of common sense and or blatant disrespect for game is a given in the "not ethical" column.
In no way am I siding with the shooter in question, nor will I judge him on his ethics.
Each and everyone of us practice some form of tactic while hunting that someone, somewhere deems unethical to at least some degree.
HC
Well said Hardcore!!! :icon_thumright:
I can understand and agree with everyone's post here. But, the one good point made was by Barry IMO. If the deer took one step one way or the other, especially at the angle that Barry said, it would have been either a clear miss or an arrow stuck in his butt cheek. More than likely, every bow hunter has made a bad shot or eventually will. Like Barry said though, a lot can happen in that 3 second period that it takes for that arrow to get down there and myself, I don't think it's worth the risk.
If your worried about one taking a step might as well not shoot. For instance I shot a 8 pnt at 10yds he took a step right into the shoulder blade the arrow went no blood no find. Yes I was sick about it but it happens now if that deer had been quartering he would have been dead larger room for error and if I am correct the shot he took was a quartering shot so he could have taken a step with it still being a high % kill shot being the sight pin would be on the last rib where impact of arrow should be. So he wasn't shooting at a grape fruit size but a paper plate size area and probably a little larger than that. IMO if you feel that 20 yds is your ethical limit then that's what you stick to but don't fault a better archer that is killing them at further distance. I myself wouldn't have taken the shot but I don't ever hunt out west so my shots stay 30yds are so and in but I don't fault him for capitalizing on a distant shot that it's no doubt the fella has practiced to become more than sufficient to make it. Jmo
Perfect conditions yes. Room for error? Not much at all. That is a life you are trying to end in the quickest way possible not just shooting a 3d target. Hard to put odds on live hunting and how often that shot would be successful or have the same scenario. Hope his luck keeps going.
Quote from: handcannon on August 14, 2012, 03:39:44 AM
I can understand and agree with everyone's post here. But, the one good point made was by Barry IMO. If the deer took one step one way or the other, especially at the angle that Barry said, it would have been either a clear miss or an arrow stuck in his butt cheek. More than likely, every bow hunter has made a bad shot or eventually will. Like Barry said though, a lot can happen in that 3 second period that it takes for that arrow to get down there and myself, I don't think it's worth the risk.
I read the hunters blog on this particular hunt and in one sentence he said the animal was "perfectly broadside" when he shot, in the next sentence he said the animal was quartering hard away and the arrow entered in the "hip area"
Call me righteous or whatever, but I don't care who you are and how much you practice, no one has any business shooting or shooting at any live animal at 100 yards with a bow and arrow.
Didn't need to be on TV for sure.
Quote from: guesswho on August 14, 2012, 03:22:46 PM
Call me righteous or whatever, but I don't care who you are and how much you practice, no one has any business shooting or shooting at any live animal at 100 yards with a bow and arrow.
X3
I practice all the time with my bow and shoot at fifty to sixty yards at home on a regular basis! A 100 yard shot is crazy crazy!! Olympic archers may shoot this distance but to shoot an animal this far is nonsense. The longest shot I have shot a deer with was 37 yards in a open field!