I was talking to Papa Lab, and he told me ( and I read it on the AGFC web page) that arkansas will not allow shooting jakes this year. The only exception is for youths 15 and under, and they are only allowed one Jake. Bout time they did this.
Can we get Louisiana to do this??? surely you have some pull with the top guys
Quote from: honker22 on February 21, 2011, 01:51:53 PM
Can we get Louisiana to do this??? surely you have some pull with the top guys
x2 that would be great!
Come to the public season setting meetings and comment on it.
March 9 at 6 p.m., Alexandria Convention Hall located at 915 Third St.
March 15 at 6:30 p.m., LDWF Office in Minden located at 9961 Hwy. 80
March 15 at 6:30 p.m., Yambilee Festival Bldg., 1939 W. Landry, Opelousas
March 16 at 6 p.m., Ponchatoula High School Cafeteria, 19452 Hwy. 22.
March 17 at 6 p.m., Bastrop Visitor Center, 124 N. Washington St
March 22 at 6:30 p.m., LSU Ag Center, 7101 Gulf Hwy., Lake Charles.
That is all well and good for ethical hunters that abide by the regulations...
Although many of us here in AR do wear shoes (contrary to legend), we do still have lots of rednecks that don't buy licenses, read regulations or recognize seasons or bag limits.
I've heard the drop in turkey population attributed to bad hatches. I still think the predator population still has a lot to do with the numbers. The number of hogs has exploded and we see a lot of roadkilled coyotes.
:icon_thumright: :icon_thumright: :icon_thumright:
I hope so much this sport does not become like deer hunting and deer management..
Quote from: shootumindaface on February 21, 2011, 03:47:56 PM
I hope so much this sport does not become like deer hunting and deer management..
X2 :icon_thumright:
Quote from: shootumindaface on February 21, 2011, 03:47:56 PM
I hope so much this sport does not become like deer hunting and deer management..
I couldnt agree with you more!!One of the main reasons I stopped liking to deer hunt as much as I used too.Too many wannabe pro staffers tryin to tell me what I should do.I wont argue with good sound educated management as the Arkansas and other states no jakes policy may be,but lets not turn this into the monster @#$%up deer hunting as become.
Quote from: shootumindaface on February 21, 2011, 03:47:56 PM
I hope so much this sport does not become like deer hunting and deer management..
Our game and fish is not forcing this upon us. They actually conducted surveys of all the hunters here in AR to judge opposition to the proposed no jake rule. It showed most were in favor and that is a product of how bad our turkey population currently is. We are trying to increase the gobbler carryover by pushing back the season opener and now eliminating the jake harvest.
I agree and one reason I don't deer hunt much is because of all the fuss about letting bucks age, can't shoot a small deer without getting &#*#%( at, etc. The no-jake rule is strictly to try and rebuild our turkey population and I'm all for that!
Quote from: cuttinAR on February 21, 2011, 04:09:48 PM
Quote from: shootumindaface on February 21, 2011, 03:47:56 PM
I hope so much this sport does not become like deer hunting and deer management..
Our game and fish is not forcing this upon us. They actually conducted surveys of all the hunters here in AR to judge opposition to the proposed no jake rule. It showed most were in favor and that is a product of how bad our turkey population currently is. We are trying to increase the gobbler carryover by pushing back the season opener and now eliminating the jake harvest.
I agree and one reason I don't deer hunt much is because of all the fuss about letting bucks age, can't shoot a small deer without getting &#*#%( at, etc. The no-jake rule is strictly to try and rebuild our turkey population and I'm all for that!
Not picking an argument trying to gather info.. So your population of gobblers is so low that hens are going un bred?
I cannot see how protecting males in a specie that does not form pair bonds is going to have any effect on population other than +1...
IMO the true answer would be to improve nesting habitat and curb the predator population..
I'm very happy with this new rule. As Wendell stated, this is only one of many problems that we are facing in Arkansas. Hopefully, the no jake rule will be enforced for many years to come.
Quote from: shootumindaface on February 21, 2011, 04:20:10 PM
Not picking an argument trying to gather info.. So your population of gobblers is so low that hens are going un bred?
I cannot see how protecting males in a specie that does not form pair bonds is going to have any effect on population other than +1...
IMO the true answer would be to improve nesting habitat and curb the predator population..
I agree. Not trying to start an argument either, but this seems more like a feel good move than sound wildlife management. But on the plus side, it sure won't hurt anything.
I personally do not see this as a sound management technique. Other factors such as habitat and predation are the key elements in a healthy turkey population. Try combating the predators, increase nesting and brooding habitat, etc...before you anger the sportsman.
Here's a link to a good article.....just food for thought
http://www.nwtf.org/NAWTMP/downloads/Literature/Impacts_Predation_Wild_Turkeys.pdf
Wow, I could have just read shootums post and put an agree sign instead lol....oh well
management practice :TooFunny: not going to help population enough to justify telling people they cant harvest whats in front of them. jmho more armchair biology
stupid rule. i love it dont get me wrong but i dont believe its fair
I personally think it is a good law. Not so sure that it will help with the turkey population since most jakes aren't sexually mature. I would like to see Florida do this so the jakes can have a chance to gobble next year.
Quote from: shootumindaface on February 21, 2011, 03:47:56 PM
I hope so much this sport does not become like deer hunting and deer management..
I think it has headed that way. I remember the days when NO ONE was in the woods turkey hunting.
Does Arkansas have a fall season?
From the point of view of someone who lives here. I love the rule. It is simply the fact that if you let a Jake live he has a way better chance to make it to next season....shouldnt have any arguments to that. Sure, hens will breed with a Jake, just like a Doe will breed to a spike, who cares. Our biggest problem is feral hogs. Our state has been taken over by them and there is no end in sight. Now that the game and fish has shown that it cares about the opinion of hunters (the few tyat took the time to fill out surveys) we can start another battle.
The number of jakes has dropped dramatically in this state. The number if birds in general has dropped. And if you shoot every male in the woods, what is the next step?
I am now selling memberships in my new organization; QTMA.
Quality Turkey Management Association.
Join today and get a Free window decal. ;)
From the point of view of someone who lives here. I love the rule. It is simply the fact that if you let a Jake live he has a way better chance to make it to next season....shouldnt have any arguments to that. Sure, hens will breed with a Jake, just like a Doe will breed to a spike, who cares. Our biggest problem is feral hogs. Our state has been taken over by them and there is no end in sight. Now that the game and fish has shown that it cares about the opinion of hunters (the few tyat took the time to fill out surveys) we can start another battle.
The number of jakes has dropped dramatically in this state. The number if birds in general has dropped. And if you shoot every male in the woods, what is the next step?
so is this rule because the turkey population is down too low? I just looked at the AGFC website and they allow you to shoot 2 adult gobblers. Why not put that number down to 1 if there is a problem. They also allow bearded hens to be shot. Not sure I get their logic. I hope this is not going to be the new trend in turkey management.
We have had the same rule for several years in Mississippi and i think most hunters are in favor of it......here the gobbler has to have a 6 inch beard or a full fan not uneven like a jake's. A hunter under the age of 16 can harvest one bird that is a jake per year. All in all it seems to working pretty good.
I think the problem with predation is its next to impossible to control. Coyotes are everywhere these days and trappers are few and far between. I know predator hunting is more popular than ever before but I don't think it even knocks a dent in any local population. The only thing I can think of would be bounties.
Does anyone know what the average sex ratio is on a typical hatch. I know I rarely see more than two jakes in the fall and late winter flocks. Limiting jake harvest might be a good idea around here where you have 20 hens to every tom. Thats a lot of competition for my poor calling.
What is the determination for a jake? Tail feathers? Beard length can be misleading and beards can be missing or shot off. Interesting ruling though.
Thats a good question, since I have seen "jake" fans on adult birds, and "adult" fans on jakes. Not common, but it happens.
I would guess beard length, like in MS. I wonder what percentage get mis-judged, or the shot rings out because "the head looked like an adult" I have a feeling some birds get wasted with rules like this.
If I am not mistaken, it is a full tail fan and/or 6"+ beard...kinda like three point rule with deer. If you aren't sure, don't shoot or pay the consequences.
letting jakes pass will allow more male birds carry over into adults. This will hopefully raise the number of birds making it into the next year. Predators can be an issue, but if the habitat is right the turkeys can out survive the predators. There is alot of work needed in some of the NF, but the red tape hinders it. I think the jake rule is a step in the right direction. I dont believe it will lead to "trophy" turkeys like an AR would for deer.
The definition of a jake is usually a bird without a full fan, 4" or less beard and .25" or less spurs. Biologically speaking it is a 1 year old bird. With the exception of beard rot/broken beards almost all birds with a small tuft of a beard will be a jake.
Quote from: shootumindaface on February 21, 2011, 03:47:56 PM
I hope so much this sport does not become like deer hunting and deer management..
:agreed:
I wish Florida would make the move to a no- Jake
I'm not one for trophy type mentality , but this makes for common sense
1) the sexually un-reproductive Jake's that don't get shot this season equals "even more" sexually reproductive gobblers next season
2) cant speak for other states but the mating season has a good portion of it prior to the hunting season opening , that means that the hens will have a better chance of being bred up even if all the gobblers in the area are killed when the hunting season occurs
3) A no-jake rule or greater than 6 inch beard rule forces otherwise carefree hunters to closely scrutinize their shots , if you cant see how big the beard is he is likely out of shotgun range - this will likely result in a more selective shot environment - greater shot per kill ratio and will help to weed out careless hunters taking careless dangerous shots{hunter safety}
Quote from: guesswho on February 21, 2011, 08:33:54 PM
Does Arkansas have a fall season?
We DID. It was archery only but it has been closed altogether for two years. It was kind of crappy how they did it. I have a lifetime license so I get all my tags in the mail every year about September. The year they closed it, all the tags for fall turkey had already been mailed out and it was "open" in the reg books.
Quote from: shootumindaface on February 21, 2011, 04:20:10 PM
Quote from: cuttinAR on February 21, 2011, 04:09:48 PM
Quote from: shootumindaface on February 21, 2011, 03:47:56 PM
I hope so much this sport does not become like deer hunting and deer management..
Our game and fish is not forcing this upon us. They actually conducted surveys of all the hunters here in AR to judge opposition to the proposed no jake rule. It showed most were in favor and that is a product of how bad our turkey population currently is. We are trying to increase the gobbler carryover by pushing back the season opener and now eliminating the jake harvest.
I agree and one reason I don't deer hunt much is because of all the fuss about letting bucks age, can't shoot a small deer without getting &#*#%( at, etc. The no-jake rule is strictly to try and rebuild our turkey population and I'm all for that!
Not picking an argument trying to gather info.. So your population of gobblers is so low that hens are going un bred?
I cannot see how protecting males in a specie that does not form pair bonds is going to have any effect on population other than +1...
IMO the true answer would be to improve nesting habitat and curb the predator population..
Yes, our population is so low that some hens are going un-bred. That is why our opener is pushed back to April 16 so by that time peak breeding has passed. This has nothing to do with growing trophy turkeys, just getting our population back up to levels from a decade ago.
And yes, we had a fall season until two years ago. It was archery and some counties in the Ouachitas and Ozarks had a firearm season also. Only ~400 turkeys were killed during it so definitely some controversy as to why it was closed.
Regarding restricting harvest....the amount of hunters that are able to take 2 turkeys during a three week season is very low especially during peak breeding = henned up/no gobbling. Restricting jake harvest will increase gobbler carryover much more than eliminating a turkey from the bag limit. When our levels get back to what seemed to be normal, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see the restriction lifted.
Quote from: Bad Grizzly on February 21, 2011, 08:06:14 PM
Quote from: lightsoutcalls on February 21, 2011, 01:59:37 PMAlthough many of us here in AR do wear shoes (contrary to legend), we do still have lots of rednecks that don't buy licenses, read regulations or recognize seasons or bag limits.
I would have to say that is an incorrect blanket statement...... POACHERS is a more fitting term......
There are many Rednecks/Hillbillies here in Tennessee..... as far as I know, they don't marry their sisters or brothers contrary to legend..... We have problems with POACHERS too!!
Sorry if there was some confusion with the terminology. Poachers would be a better term. I have an uncle that meets the definition of both words. I was referring to people who see the land and the critters that inbahit it as their own, and don't tolerate anyone telling them how they can or can't hunt. My uncle will flat out tell you that he will take a deer whenever he wants to. I don't endorse that viewpoint or much of the rest of his lifestyle. He has had about as many wives as he has cars that don't run in his yard. His current wife shot him last year if that tells you anything... Whatever you call them, there are folks that just don't "play by the rules", regardless of what the rules might be.
So can someone clue me in on why they allow bearded hens to be shot? What if the bearded hen doesn't have a 4" beard? Not trying to be critical of you guys on here that support it, just saying that AGFC is being hypocritical allowing the harvest of hens in the spring but not jakes.
I hope Louisiana doesn't follow. I have enough trouble trying to tell if a deer is 2.5 or 3.5. Don't feel like having to analyze turkeys too before I shoot. Trophies are in the eye of the hunter. Not what the wildlife and fisheries say is a trophy.
It was the best move the Mississippi Dept of Wildlife Fisheries & Parks ever made...granted, they haven't made many other good ones...
Quote from: jperrotti on February 22, 2011, 12:08:11 PM
I hope Louisiana doesn't follow. I have enough trouble trying to tell if a deer is 2.5 or 3.5. Don't feel like having to analyze turkeys too before I shoot. Trophies are in the eye of the hunter. Not what the wildlife and fisheries say is a trophy.
I agree that a trophy is in the eye of the beholder, but it's not tough to tell if you have a jake in front of you or not.
First clue- full gobble...probably an adult gobbler, this isn't always the case but I'd guess at least 90% of the time.
2nd clue- Beard that is 6+ inches, that is pretty obvious. Almost every adult gobbler has an 8" plus beard.
3rd clue- Full fan- this is why gobblers with full fans are allowed in MS, regardless of jake or not. You can also look at the leg color, but by clue 2 or so, I've pretty much got it figured out.
This isn't a trophy thing, just making sure that we have gobbling 2 year olds for the next year. Anything to increase turkey numbers in Louisiana, I am for. I don't think this is the full answer but it sure as heck won't hurt. jperotti, don't take offense, I'm not trying to belittle you, just respectfully disagreeing and explaining why.
i dont agree with it from real management practices, but i hope it helps . i personally dont shoot jakes but it sure does light up the eyes of any young or beginner to take a jake.some of my most memorible hunts have been calling up some jakes for newbies
None taken. I shot a "super jake" last year that would've been tough to tell he was a jake. Came in behind gobbling in the wind. He spotted me but stuck around a second or two too long.
Here's a turkey with beard rot had about a 1/2" beard but 1" spurs.
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/3334_543582359928_49700676_32633555_4274873_n.jpg)
Here's another killed on our club that had a beard rot on part of his beard. By the end of the year it might've been gone too.
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/IMG_18641.JPG)
I just feel that's one of the things I enjoy about turkey hunting is killing freakin turkeys. I'm over regulated in all the other parts of my life at least let me kill which turkey I feel like.
Me killing 2 jakes or 2 three year olds is not going to change the population. The same number of hens will be bred.
I love arkansas more and more everyday :turkey2:
Quote from: FireDoc on February 21, 2011, 08:42:35 PM
I am now selling memberships in my new organization; QTMA.
Quality Turkey Management Association.
Join today and get a Free window decal. ;)
This is what I'm afraid of.....if he's old enough to strut and gobble.....he's old enough to DIE!!! I generally dont shoot jakes, but.............
I hope this doesn't become a popular trend among other states. I hate what deer hunting has become, and I hope to God that turkey hunting doesn't start down that trail. In many areas deer hunting has become an elitist sport that is all about the biggest and best, not the experience, and that is a shame IMO. New hunters are looked down on if they shoot anything less than a record book buck, and I would hate for that to become the way of turkey hunting too. If a new hunter wants to shoot a jake and it makes him happy, what is wrong with that? I know a few people who have hunted for years and years and still get a great rush from the shooting of a jake, why should that be taken away from them. I challenge anyone here to come up with a good reason why someone should not be allowed to harvest a jake if that gets them excited. FWIW, I don't shoot jakes, but I have no problem with those who do. I would much rather see someone shoot a jake and be super pumped about it, than see someone shoot a mature tom and be dissapointed because it is "only a two year old".
I wouldn't mind this rule at all, I like the idea. I don't know about you guys but I'm more proud of a 2 year old hanging on my wall than a jake. When I killed them in the past I felt like should be ashamed of myself. I get what yall are saying about the whole trophey deer hunting crap, but how could turkey hunting get to shooting a 4 year old, mature gobbler weighing over 21 lbs, with a 12 1/2 inch beard, & 1 3/4 spurs, it can't!
I have been hunting Mississippi for 38 yrs now and I guess the jake program has been in effect for about 10 +/- yrs. And the club that I hunt primarily has not allowed the taking of jakes for 20+ yrs. I must say I think it is the best thing since buttered bread.
Quote from: NYbassman on February 22, 2011, 09:25:36 PM
I hope this doesn't become a popular trend among other states. I hate what deer hunting has become, and I hope to God that turkey hunting doesn't start down that trail. In many areas deer hunting has become an elitist sport that is all about the biggest and best, not the experience, and that is a shame IMO. New hunters are looked down on if they shoot anything less than a record book buck, and I would hate for that to become the way of turkey hunting too. If a new hunter wants to shoot a jake and it makes him happy, what is wrong with that? I know a few people who have hunted for years and years and still get a great rush from the shooting of a jake, why should that be taken away from them. I challenge anyone here to come up with a good reason why someone should not be allowed to harvest a jake if that gets them excited. FWIW, I don't shoot jakes, but I have no problem with those who do. I would much rather see someone shoot a jake and be super pumped about it, than see someone shoot a mature tom and be dissapointed because it is "only a two year old".
AGAIN, this isn't about only killing "trophy" turkeys. It is about helping gobbler carryover and allow more hens to be bred. Here in AR in a typical year, 20% or so of the harvest is jakes. At present harvest levels, that 2000 jakes that at least have the chance to make it to the next year as a two-year old breeding gobbler.
The youth hunt that takes place the weekend before the regular season opener does allow jake harvest for the youngsters.
Quote from: honker22 on February 22, 2011, 12:20:08 PM
Quote from: jperrotti on February 22, 2011, 12:08:11 PM
I hope Louisiana doesn't follow. I have enough trouble trying to tell if a deer is 2.5 or 3.5. Don't feel like having to analyze turkeys too before I shoot. Trophies are in the eye of the hunter. Not what the wildlife and fisheries say is a trophy.
I agree that a trophy is in the eye of the beholder, but it's not tough to tell if you have a jake in front of you or not.
First clue- full gobble...probably an adult gobbler, this isn't always the case but I'd guess at least 90% of the time.
2nd clue- Beard that is 6+ inches, that is pretty obvious. Almost every adult gobbler has an 8" plus beard.
3rd clue- Full fan- this is why gobblers with full fans are allowed in MS, regardless of jake or not. You can also look at the leg color, but by clue 2 or so, I've pretty much got it figured out.
This isn't a trophy thing, just making sure that we have gobbling 2 year olds for the next year. Anything to increase turkey numbers in Louisiana, I am for. I don't think this is the full answer but it sure as heck won't hurt. jperotti, don't take offense, I'm not trying to belittle you, just respectfully disagreeing and explaining why.
:agreed: well said honker
Quote from: knightrider on February 22, 2011, 12:26:01 PM
i dont agree with it from real management practices, but i hope it helps . i personally dont shoot jakes but it sure does light up the eyes of any young or beginner to take a jake.some of my most memorible hunts have been calling up some jakes for newbies
They still allow kids to kill a jake just not adults
I just don't see how it helps a turkey population. I seriously doubt any hens go unbred due to jakes being shot.
Most years on our property a jake will get shot, whether it be a young hunter, new hunter, or an old hunter in the mood for jake meat, I can tell you we are not hurting the gobbler population.
Quote from: jperrotti on February 23, 2011, 09:41:15 AM
I just don't see how it helps a turkey population. I seriously doubt any hens go unbred due to jakes being shot.
Most years on our property a jake will get shot, whether it be a young hunter, new hunter, or an old hunter in the mood for jake meat, I can tell you we are not hurting the gobbler population.
We don't have many gobblers left to bred the hens. Our gobbler/hen ratio is less than 0.30. Any of the biologists on this site can verify that is way below norm. It leads to bad hatches and less turkeys. This was all enhanced by the historical flooding rains we had for the past four springs.
All I got to say its a good thing CASH doesn't hunt there or he would end up in the Pokey
Quote from: cuttinAR on February 23, 2011, 10:05:37 AM
Quote from: jperrotti on February 23, 2011, 09:41:15 AM
I just don't see how it helps a turkey population. I seriously doubt any hens go unbred due to jakes being shot.
Most years on our property a jake will get shot, whether it be a young hunter, new hunter, or an old hunter in the mood for jake meat, I can tell you we are not hurting the gobbler population.
We don't have many gobblers left to bred the hens. Our gobbler/hen ratio is less than 0.30. Any of the biologists on this site can verify that is way below norm. It leads to bad hatches and less turkeys. This was all enhanced by the historical flooding rains we had for the past four springs.
So if your ratio is .3 you are saying that one gobbler won't be able to breed 3 hens
Maybe instead of restricting the harvest on certain ducks such as the canvasback, bluebill and pintail, they should just eliminate the harvest of juvie drakes ???
Quote from: cuttinAR on February 23, 2011, 10:05:37 AM
Quote from: jperrotti on February 23, 2011, 09:41:15 AM
I just don't see how it helps a turkey population. I seriously doubt any hens go unbred due to jakes being shot.
Most years on our property a jake will get shot, whether it be a young hunter, new hunter, or an old hunter in the mood for jake meat, I can tell you we are not hurting the gobbler population.
We don't have many gobblers left to bred the hens. Our gobbler/hen ratio is less than 0.30. Any of the biologists on this site can verify that is way below norm. It leads to bad hatches and less turkeys. This was all enhanced by the historical flooding rains we had for the past four springs.
Maybe they should decrease the bag limit to 1 tom and not allow shooting bearded hens?
Quote from: turkey slayer on February 23, 2011, 09:36:42 AM
Quote from: knightrider on February 22, 2011, 12:26:01 PM
i dont agree with it from real management practices, but i hope it helps . i personally dont shoot jakes but it sure does light up the eyes of any young or beginner to take a jake.some of my most memorible hunts have been calling up some jakes for newbies
They still allow kids to kill a jake just not adults
i understand this but i introduce new adults to the turkey woods not just kids that are like kids at christmas when they shoot a jake, this is just another feel good move by an agency that is not addressing the real issues at hand and are trying to throw something out there to make folks feel like they are doing something for them until mother nature turns the problem around for them. a dead male turkey is a dead male turkey no matter the age, they should be more concerned with saving their gobblers that are doing the breeding if their hatch and populations are so low, taking it down to 1 bird limit or a draw for a certain number of permits would have made much more sense if they are that concerned about the numbers, not restricting which male a hunter can shoot. jmho
By eleminating the Jake from the bag limit you are increasing carry over of males to the next year. Has nothing to do with breeding or hens being bred. It also has nothing to do with trophy management. It has to do with allowing fewer turkeys to be shot. Where I hunt in AR it takses nothing to kill a jake. They come running. The 2 yo and older birds are a challange. THe kids 15 and under can still kill a jake. The bearded hens being allowed has more to do (assumption) with eliminating the mistaking a hen for a gobbler and becoming an outlaw. In louisiana we have decent populations. Once the hens are bred, the males are expendable (in the words of our elustrious former Turkey Study Leader) although they keep moving it back earlier and earlier. It actually ends now when it should be starting. OUr turkeys may end up declining if we get bad hatches and dont correct our season.
Quote from: LaBiologist on February 23, 2011, 10:56:17 AM
By eleminating the Jake from the bag limit you are increasing carry over of males to the next year. Has nothing to do with breeding or hens being bred. It also has nothing to do with trophy management. It has to do with allowing fewer turkeys to be shot. Where I hunt in AR it takses nothing to kill a jake. They come running. The 2 yo and older birds are a challange. THe kids 15 and under can still kill a jake. The bearded hens being allowed has more to do (assumption) with eliminating the mistaking a hen for a gobbler and becoming an outlaw. In louisiana we have decent populations. Once the hens are bred, the males are expendable (in the words of our elustrious former Turkey Study Leader) although they keep moving it back earlier and earlier. It actually ends now when it should be starting. OUr turkeys may end up declining if we get bad hatches and dont correct our season.
So what is the percentage of jakes being killed. How many turkeys will this save?
I'm not wading through 5 pages of this mess after just reading the first one..
Protecting jakes improves hunting "quality". Quality as in number of gobbling birds. Yes, we know some jakes gobble. They majority of them don't gobble like a 2 year old though. I don't see what people get out of killing a jake honestly. I have hunted several states that allow jake harvest and never once have thought about taking one.
Quote from: jperrotti on February 23, 2011, 11:02:46 AM
Quote from: LaBiologist on February 23, 2011, 10:56:17 AM
By eleminating the Jake from the bag limit you are increasing carry over of males to the next year. Has nothing to do with breeding or hens being bred. It also has nothing to do with trophy management. It has to do with allowing fewer turkeys to be shot. Where I hunt in AR it takses nothing to kill a jake. They come running. The 2 yo and older birds are a challange. THe kids 15 and under can still kill a jake. The bearded hens being allowed has more to do (assumption) with eliminating the mistaking a hen for a gobbler and becoming an outlaw. In louisiana we have decent populations. Once the hens are bred, the males are expendable (in the words of our elustrious former Turkey Study Leader) although they keep moving it back earlier and earlier. It actually ends now when it should be starting. OUr turkeys may end up declining if we get bad hatches and dont correct our season.
So what is the percentage of jakes being killed. How many turkeys will this save?
Based on current harvest levels 20%. When you have a good hatch upwards of 30% of male turkeys harvested can be jakes. That's 30% that you can guarantee will not be in next years breeding population.
Quote from: LaBiologist on February 23, 2011, 10:56:17 AM
By eleminating the Jake from the bag limit you are increasing carry over of males to the next year. Has nothing to do with breeding or hens being bred. It also has nothing to do with trophy management. It has to do with allowing fewer turkeys to be shot. Where I hunt in AR it takses nothing to kill a jake. They come running. The 2 yo and older birds are a challange. THe kids 15 and under can still kill a jake. The bearded hens being allowed has more to do (assumption) with eliminating the mistaking a hen for a gobbler and becoming an outlaw. In louisiana we have decent populations. Once the hens are bred, the males are expendable (in the words of our elustrious former Turkey Study Leader) although they keep moving it back earlier and earlier. It actually ends now when it should be starting. OUr turkeys may end up declining if we get bad hatches and dont correct our season.
Thank you. Some people can't see the forest for the trees. Kill em all now, screw the future!
How can you determine the quality of someone's hunt? By stat's on a turkey.
I don't say screw the future I say reduce the limit to 1. Do not try and tell me my hunting expierence was inferior because the turkey I killed was not old enough.
To me the breeding population arguement is bogus unless you can tell that hens are going unbred due to the lack of male birds.
Quote from: cuttinAR on February 23, 2011, 12:33:41 PM
Quote from: LaBiologist on February 23, 2011, 10:56:17 AM
By eleminating the Jake from the bag limit you are increasing carry over of males to the next year. Has nothing to do with breeding or hens being bred. It also has nothing to do with trophy management. It has to do with allowing fewer turkeys to be shot. Where I hunt in AR it takses nothing to kill a jake. They come running. The 2 yo and older birds are a challange. THe kids 15 and under can still kill a jake. The bearded hens being allowed has more to do (assumption) with eliminating the mistaking a hen for a gobbler and becoming an outlaw. In louisiana we have decent populations. Once the hens are bred, the males are expendable (in the words of our elustrious former Turkey Study Leader) although they keep moving it back earlier and earlier. It actually ends now when it should be starting. OUr turkeys may end up declining if we get bad hatches and dont correct our season.
Thank you. Some people can't see the forest for the trees. Kill em all now, screw the future!
:TooFunny: killing a jake instead of a gobbler is screwing the future :TooFunny:
My last statement on this....if you'd like to learn more about it please come to AR and you can find out what overharvesting does to your turkey population.
Shorter, later seasons have stabilized our harvest after seven years of decline. Eliminating jakes increases available gobblers for the next year. We have some areas that if you kill the gobbler out of the breeding flock, there is not another to fill that spot. Result is hens get bred later because it takes time for the breeding to occur due to lack of said gobblers. Later hatches equal poor poult raising conditions and survival. INCREASING GOBBLER CARRYOVER IS THE MAIN GOAL OF THIS REGULATION.
The #1 priority of our game & fish commission should be to manage the resource, not to please the masses. Bottom line. The short term and long term goals are set towards expanding our current population, not simply maintaining what we have. Fortunately for AR turkey hunters, most of us understand the issue and are on board with the changes.
There is plenty of published material by biologists not just from AR about the subject. I suggest you do some reading before you jump to conclusions.
Close The season for a year then lower bag limit. :newmascot:
Quote from: mason0366 on February 23, 2011, 01:15:25 PM
Close The season for a year then lower bag limit. :newmascot:
Lowering the bag limit to 1 tom would work. It would probably cut down on the jake harvest because people wouldn't use their 1 tag on a jake.
Quote from: cuttinAR on February 23, 2011, 01:02:41 PMWe have some areas that if you kill the gobbler out of the breeding flock, there is not another to fill that spot. Result is hens get bred later because it takes time for the breeding to occur due to lack of said gobblers. Later hatches equal poor poult raising conditions and survival.
If that is the case, then your season is set too early. The hens should be bred before the season, and even if the only gobbler in the area was killed, they will still have fertile eggs. Even if their nest gets ruined, they still have enough fertilized eggs to lay again.
Maybe moving the season back a bit would help...
The season is fine where it is. It is far enough back and short enought to stop over harvest and allow breeding. BUT, the years of bad hatches have reduced the population. If you can protect the jakes and increase populations, why reduce the bag limit. It is much easier to work with the public and use sound management, rather than tick off the public and get a mutany. The hunters are OK with eliminating the jake. Let them have their cake and eat it to.
Quote from: LaBiologist on February 23, 2011, 02:08:47 PM
The season is fine where it is. It is far enough back and short enought to stop over harvest and allow breeding. BUT, the years of bad hatches have reduced the population. If you can protect the jakes and increase populations, why reduce the bag limit. It is much easier to work with the public and use sound management, rather than tick off the public and get a mutany. The hunters are OK with eliminating the jake. Let them have their cake and eat it to.
:agreed:
Quote from: jperrotti on February 23, 2011, 12:42:41 PM
How can you determine the quality of someone's hunt? By stat's on a turkey.
I don't say screw the future I say reduce the limit to 1. Do not try and tell me my hunting expierence was inferior because the turkey I killed was not old enough.
To me the breeding population arguement is bogus unless you can tell that hens are going unbred due to the lack of male birds.
Well the majority of hunters want to hear more gobbling. More 2 year olds = more gobbling.
If you want to kill those suicidal teen-aged turkey, go right ahead.
Quote from: deerhunt1988 on February 23, 2011, 03:13:13 PM
Quote from: jperrotti on February 23, 2011, 12:42:41 PM
How can you determine the quality of someone's hunt? By stat's on a turkey.
I don't say screw the future I say reduce the limit to 1. Do not try and tell me my hunting expierence was inferior because the turkey I killed was not old enough.
To me the breeding population arguement is bogus unless you can tell that hens are going unbred due to the lack of male birds.
Well the majority of hunters want to hear more gobbling. More 2 year olds = more gobbling.
If you want to kill those suicidal teen-aged turkey, go right ahead.
And we are back to the common fight in deer hunting
Yep!
Quote from: shootumindaface on February 23, 2011, 03:21:20 PM
And we are back to the common fight in deer hunting
No this is different in Arkansas. this is not about killing spikes vs killing adult deer. This is about letting non mature birds carry over to allow the population numbers to recover. The public was offered several options and that is what the majority of hunters wanted to do. Not shooting spikes is trying to provide trophy deer for the future. Not allowing jakes in this scenerio is to boost the number of adults in the population. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH TROPHY MANAGEMENT. This is apples and oranges with the Spike issue. Not shooting jakes was an option presented to the public. The majority chose to do it. It was not whimsically or randomly thrown in the mix. I know alot of people dont understand why Biologists do things. Trust me there is almost always a biologically sound reason for doing it. Some things are trial and error (I.E. AR's which seem to work but do more harm) and some are not, like allowing immature animals to be protected to move into the breeding population next year.
Quote from: LaBiologist on February 23, 2011, 03:47:44 PM
Quote from: shootumindaface on February 23, 2011, 03:21:20 PM
And we are back to the common fight in deer hunting
No this is different in Arkansas. this is not about killing spikes vs killing adult deer. This is about letting non mature birds carry over to allow the population numbers to recover. The public was offered several options and that is what the majority of hunters wanted to do. Not shooting spikes is trying to provide trophy deer for the future. Not allowing jakes in this scenerio is to boost the number of adults in the population. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH TROPHY MANAGEMENT. This is apples and oranges with the Spike issue. Not shooting jakes was an option presented to the public. The majority chose to do it. It was not whimsically or randomly thrown in the mix. I know alot of people dont understand why Biologists do things. Trust me there is almost always a biologically sound reason for doing it. Some things are trial and error (I.E. AR's which seem to work but do more harm) and some are not, like allowing immature animals to be protected to move into the breeding population next year.
So after the population recovers will this law be removed?
J. I dont know. I dont work for AGFC. I wish I did. I am actually looking for a job up there. It will be there determination as to what to do.
Quote from: LaBiologist on February 23, 2011, 03:47:44 PM
The public was offered several options and that is what the majority of hunters wanted to do. Not shooting jakes was an option presented to the public. The majority chose to do it. It was not whimsically or randomly thrown in the mix.
I don't care one way or the other, and don't know enough about it to make an argument one way or the other. But I'm not sure letting the majority of "hunters" who are not educated in this field make the decision is the right thing to do. Looks to me like the majority of people educated along this line would be a better choice for decision making. Because of the majority of uneducated people look what we now have as a President.
Gotcha. My whole point of this arguement is not so that I can shoot jakes. It's my hope that turkey hunting doesn't turn into deer hunting. I've deer hunted the last 3 years and not shot a buck in Louisiana because I never saw one big enough to meet our club's criteria.
I never belittle someone's kill. I tell my wife shoot whatever you want but don't regret shooting it when you walk up to it.
If a jake turkey come's in and I've had a bad season or I'm in the mood by god I like having the opportunity to kill him. Or if I'm taking someone who's only killed a few turkeys and jake comes in gobbling, I don't want to hold them off.
Last year I had four jakes on my property. My wife, my nephew and myself all had chances to kill them but we didn't by our own choice. One was even a Super Jake that strutted and gobbled like a 2 year old. Now I know they could be different birds, but this year I know have 4 strutters in the same field. I think I see the point AR is trying to accomplish.
So lab seeings that they took hunter input and the effort is to increase adult gobbling birds in the population, they are seeking to increase hunter satisfaction.. I dont necessarily agree with their method, because beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but at least they are doing something to increase it..
But where I am lost is what is this going to do to tackle the bigger problem, low bird numbers overall.. Much like the states that have taken steps to increase older deer through MAR, the following year the number of 2.5 bucks increased in both population, but also in harvest.. Granted it did allow a smarter creature to carry on to 3.5, 4.5 etc etc.. But say 20 percent of the harvest is jakes and they are not shot, the next year 15 percent of such jakes are shot thus allowing for 5 percent more to mature beyond that leaving out other aspects of mortality.. Where does this get you?
The larger problem is not being tackled with this law... It is simply providing a false sense of more turkeys and thus a increase in hunter satisfaction until folks realize there is no more turkeys than there was to start..
Maybe they should do like some states do on deer hunting. Earn a gobbler. You must kill a coyote, coon, fox, bobcat or hog before you can kill a gobbler. That should get the nuisance population down.
I am from AR and have pushed very hard for this rule for the last 2 yrs. There is plenty of reasoning behind it, but I have argued this topic to death on the AR forum so I'm going to pass. Just glad we got it passed.
Shotgun can you please explain in PM your reasoning..
i would like a link to that forum to see the 'reasons' that one male is more important than the other
Knightrider, Jakes may be able to breed, but they usually dont. If you remove breeding adults and leave nothing for next year, you have an issue. They are to afraid to try to breed after they get whipped a few times. By protecting them you allow them to carry over to the next year. Adult birds are harder to kill. I would be very willing to bet it is much harder to kill 2 adult birds than a jake and a gobbler. It makes you work harder and the chances of kiling next years breeding crop decreases. This has nothing to do with "he's to small". There were several options presented to the public, this was their choice. The public did not make "the decision" rather they chose from the options. The public in Ar would rather forego the jake than lower the bag limit. Both were viable options but the pulpic made a choice. I know you dont see the reasoning or may not understand the science behind the decision (purely my speculation and if I am wrong then my sencire appologies) but this decision was not just randomly plucked out of thin air.
"Jakes do gobble and strut. However, they are often afraid to, especially later in the spring after a dominant bird has whipped them a few times. "
Quote from: LaBiologist on February 23, 2011, 10:58:37 PM
Knightrider, Jakes may be able to breed, but they usually dont. If you remove breeding adults and leave nothing for next year, you have an issue. They are to afraid to try to breed after they get whipped a few times. By protecting them you allow them to carry over to the next year. Adult birds are harder to kill. I would be very willing to bet it is much harder to kill 2 adult birds than a jake and a gobbler. It makes you work harder and the chances of kiling next years breeding crop decreases. This has nothing to do with "he's to small". There were several options presented to the public, this was their choice. The public did not make "the decision" rather they chose from the options. The public in Ar would rather forego the jake than lower the bag limit. Both were viable options but the pulpic made a choice. I know you dont see the reasoning or may not understand the science behind the decision (purely my speculation and if I am wrong then my sencire appologies) but this decision was not just randomly plucked out of thin air.
"Jakes do gobble and strut. However, they are often afraid to, especially later in the spring after a dominant bird has whipped them a few times. "
you are correct i dont see the reasoning,dont get me wrong im starting to see what your saying after doing a bunch of searching on it, i just think from a management standpoint it would make more since to drop the baglimit then to say that someone that would be happy with one jake cant shoot it after buying their license,dont get me wrong i havnt shot a jake in 12 years but that is personall choice not because i cant,i love to see people kill whatever bird makes them happy.since this is in place it makes no matter anyways i just hope it helps
As an AR hunter, I support this measure. Youths 15 and under are still allowed to shoot a jake. Turkey numbers are way down here and this is only one of several steps meant to help the population recover. I don't think anyone thinks this by itself will fix anything, but if not shooting jakes reduces the number of gobblers harvested, it is some help.