It is almost getting to the question of how wet do you have to be to say you went swimming. When you start getting more than 150 or so shot in a 10" circle at a given distance you don't really need any more at that distance to kill a turkey for crying out loud.
If you are trying to win the NWTF or local turkey shoots then yes, maybe you do want to see how many little tiny holes you can make in a target .
Just don't lose sight of your purpose or goal when it comes to turkey hunting because those live targets come in at different distances and they sometimes move a little as well. Too tight can be too bad. Another post today showing a factory full shows that at 30 yards a little off may be a miss. Just use common sense . If 30 yards is about as far as you take a shot then you do not have to worry about how your pattern is at 40-50 yards. We see someone stating such as ," I bet that pattern is a lot different at 40 yards", and it might be. If you are shooting your birds at 20-30 yards then that is the pattern that you want to be warm and cozy with . A guy who can place 300 +shot in a 10" circle @ 40 yds.can either cut the neck into or miss at 20-30- yards. The choice is up to you.
3 or 4 in the noggin is all i need
I couldn't agree with you more RAJ! :icon_thumright:
Very good post RAJ! It's good to know how your gun patterns a particular load as a point of reference in our pursuit of the wily gobbler but for me it's not how many pellets it's how dense the pattern looks on paper. I'm not a contest shooter just a turkey hunter. :icon_thumright:
Couldnt agree more!While I admire the guys that like to tinker a lot with chokes and loads and get the super high 10" numbers,its not really for me.I dont care for super super tight loads.I'll take 90 evenly placed killing pellets in a 10" at 40 over 150+ in a baseball sized pattern anyday.While more is sometimes better and in this case doesnt usually hurt,less isnt always a bad thing.Know your limitations and if it suits you and is lethal at YOUR ranges,the heck to what other people say or think.Dead is dead.
Well technically 1 in the right spot will work ,but the more you throw the better the odds you will get one in that spot.
Quote from: hookedspur on February 15, 2011, 08:48:41 PM
Well technically 1 in the right spot will work ,but the more you throw the better the odds you will get one in that spot.
EXACTLY!!!! :z-winnersmiley: :z-winnersmiley:
Quote from: hookedspur on February 15, 2011, 08:48:41 PM
Well technically 1 in the right spot will work ,but the more you throw the better the odds you will get one in that spot.
I tend to agree with you. I personally shoot pretty big numbers in the 10" @ 40 yards....BUT, I practice at 10 & 20 yards also. I know EXACTLY what my pattern is at ALL ranges. It's the way I like to hunt....hey, if someone wants to shoot lead #4's through a modified choke I do not care as long as they have done their homework and know their limitations :boon:
i like a lot of shot, But i killm be 4 they get to the 25yd line. :newmascot:
some like it open But i just like my loads tight.
Brian
This is the way I see it. Some folks use patterning their guns to get them fired up for the season. But as for me I like to shoot different guns with different chokes and shells and get the most out of it I can. I do this not because it is neccessary but because it is a WHOLE LOT OF FUN!! It is fun shooting and trying to see what will happen. Turkey hunting is addictive, and for me the shooting is addictive. I am not in it for a competition or try to out do someone else. As I said it is FUN.
BTW The first turkey I ever killed years and years ago was killed with a sawed off 870 with #9 lead 2 3/4.
Well both my guns will give great 10" numbers and extemely good 20" numbers as well. And to me that is what you want. Both my guns with factory bead pretty much shoot deadnut time after time. That's the way I want it.
i agree . you need to know how your setup patterns at different distances. if it was a perfect world and you knew that every bird would come into 20 or 30 yards you would not have to worry how many pellets you have at 40yds. but it is not a perfect world and sometimes Gobblers hang up at 45 and 50 yards no matter how good of a hunter you are. that is why i try to get the most out of my turkey killer. i love to call them close.some of my best hunts i went home empty handed. but once in a while i like to take a turkey home
Quote from: VAHUNTER on February 15, 2011, 09:43:08 PM
i agree . you need to know how your setup patterns at different distances. if it was a perfect world and you knew that every bird would come into 20 or 30 yards you would not have to worry how many pellets you have at 40yds. but it is not a perfect world and sometimes Gobblers hang up at 45 and 50 yards no matter how good of a hunter you are. that is why i try to get the most out of my turkey killer. i love to call them close.some of my best hunts i went home empty handed. but once in a while i like to take a turkey home
Well said.
I call it doing your homework. :z-paddy-smiley113:
Good post Raj.. Anything above 150 is worthless unless you are trying to extend your range.. I have really backed off on this after missing more turkeys some years than most kill.. I simply realized 80% of the birds I kill the setup is so they are 25 and in.
last year there was a post here on OG. the 300 club. i knew that i would never be in it. why?? because after i got to a certain # i was satisfied. my 835 is set up for 1 purpose. to kill.
I think it's great that people enjoy shooting and that they know they can cleanly kill before they pull the trigger.
My biggest concern when we start talking about trying to get 200+ type numbers is what it does to the newbies. I patterned my turkey gun for years by shooting at 20, 30, 40 and 50 yards. Then looking at the pattern for holes. Never bothered to count anything and that mentality never cost me a bird. If I had to guess at a count that my first turkey gun threw, I would tell you at least one - in the head of the first bird I shot.
Not suggesting anyone should cut corners but also would hate to see a new hunter read some of these threads and spend a few hundred dollars on chokes and ammo because they can only get 180 pellets of #6 HTL in a 10" circle. They could be scouting, or buying a squealing hen call to really help improve their odds.
maustypsu i agree with you. those big #'s are not needed to take birds on a regular bases. if you can get 80 to 100 pellets at a certain yardage. you can take birds at that yardage all day long.
i also remember the days of not counting pellets. for the first 20 years of turkey hunting if i was to check my pattern it only took a second to look and say yes it will kill or no it wont. if it did not that just ment i shot to far and needed to move closer to the target.
i still think about having 3 or 4 different colored 2 3/4" high brass shells in my pocket. if they was #4's up to 6's they was turkey loads
VA Hunter -I hear you on those #4-#6 high brass shells. We would buy a box of 25 and it would last awhile-for me at least .One reason was that you didn't do any or very much target shooting back then.Another was that there weren't that many turkeys in 1960s around us.That got better quickly. :) Even Ben Lee advised to put up a Coke can at whatever distance and if you hit it with 5-6 shot then you were good. That was the acid test for determining if your gun gets your turkey. He liked a 3" full choke and #4 lead loads .
Quote from: RAJ on February 15, 2011, 10:35:39 PM
VA Hunter -I hear you on those #4-#6 high brass shells. We would buy a box of 25 and it would last awhile-for me at least .One reason was that you didn't do any or very much target shooting back then.Another was that there weren't that many turkeys in 1960s around us.That got better quickly. :) Even Ben Lee advised to put up a Coke can at whatever distance and if you hit it with 5-6 shot then you were good. That was the acid test for determining if your gun gets your turkey. He liked a 3" full choke and #4 lead loads .
yep. if a dime did not fall straight through it was a turkey gun LOL. it's funny how difficult we hunters make things. seemed to be a lot simpler before we knew better. i know it was less expensive.and we still killed turkeys. we need a new thread. remembering the good ole days
was definately cheaper :TooFunny:
Quote from: VAHUNTER on February 15, 2011, 10:54:33 PM
seemed to be a lot simpler before we knew better. i know it was less expensive.and we still killed turkeys. we need a new thread. remembering the good ole days
Granted I have been hunting just shy of 20 years.. I miss even the days back then.. So much simpler and in some ways more fun..
Good subject sometimes it seems were looking for numbers or killing paper rather than killing birds. What happened to using a larger pellet for larger birds? I like 5's I'm shooting 170 to 190 in 10" at forty yards some would say since it's not 200 + it could be better these are #5 hevi shot I don't need better, it's a dead bird.
I use to do card shoot (shooting matches) we shot 9's to put a bunch of hole in a piece of paper. I see some similarities.
With that being said if your trying to improve the performance of your gun and your shooting ability that's a good thing. I had a friend tell me playing golf was like chasing something you couldn't achieve again similarities.
Not looking for an argument just thinking.
I too like the good old days but we only had quail, doves, rabbits and rattle snakes when I started with a shotgun in 1949. Mossberg 410 3 inch lead shells killed everything I could legally hunt then. We used a paper plate nailed to a cottonwood tree and looked for any holes the bird might fly through. I could only afford one box of shells for each season so not many were wasted on the paper plate. My dad used a twenty gauge for his hunting and that included ducks (high base for ducks and low base for doves and quail). The snakes got a load of what ever I carried on the farm at the time I ran across them.
That said I now enjoy seeing what my shotgun will do for me, but not to a point of it controlling me. If my pattern is tight and there are no holes at the given yards I practice with then I am good to go for turkeys and or pheasants.
The numbers game is not needed. It is a hobby. It is learning the art of the shotgun. It is doing the best you can with the limits of your equipment.
It is polishing the barrel,cleaning between patterns, make poa and poi identical, it is handloading the rounds, fireing the shot and admiring your handy work.
You could take a fixed full shotgun,buy a box of 5 shot, hang a soda can at 30 yards and shoot it to perpare for most turkeys.
QuoteYou could take a fixed full shotgun,buy a box of 5 shot, hang a soda can at 30 yards and shoot it to prepare for most turkeys.
BTW, we have a Lead Only forum that we could easily liven up with a few threads. :groundhog:
I remember when if I had about 80 or so hits in the 10 inch circle I as "good to go". My main goal was to put at least 4 pellets in the barin and stem on a paper turkey target. I was shooting #5 lead. I could not see why I should spend $3 on the new Hevi shells, when a $0.50 shell would kill one just fine.
Then one day I misjudged a bird and took him at 50 yards. (I did get him but it took 2 shots) I decided I needed something a little better. After several chokes and more than a few boxes of lead shells, I tried that $3 shell. It made a BIG difference in my hit counts and my confidence when hunting.
Having said that, I do feel that you can get too much of a good thing. I don't need or want super high number in the 10" circle at 40. I remember when I could not get 200 in th 10" circle at 40, when everyone else was in the +250 range. When I made it to the 250-275 range others had moved the bar higher. The new goal was set at +325-350 range and some were knocking on 400. That is not knocking anyone but I don't need those kind of numbers.
I say all that to say, you have to be happy were your at. For the way I hunt and where I hunt, my numbers are good for me.
I will say one more thing and that is, due to all the choke/shell pattern work, you get to know your gun really well. Shooting more and knowing what your gun will and will not do is not a bad thing.
Quote from: pullit on February 16, 2011, 08:09:40 AM
I will say one more thing and that is, due to all the choke/shell pattern work, you get to know your gun really well. Shooting more and knowing what your gun will and will not do is not a bad thing.
:agreed: :z-winnersmiley:
Yes it does provide confidence.
If your gun is really tight at 20 yrds so be it. learn to shoot it like a rifle! With high #'s at 40 yrds I know I can reach out a little further if I miss judge distance. I feel I'm a good enough shot and know my gun and load to shoot it at closer distances. Heck get him close enough and I could kill him with a bb gun. All I know is DEAD IS DEAD!
10" circle..............I'd never even heard of a shooting a 10" circle until I came here. We taped a turkey head target to a box at 40 and counted the number of holes in the birds kill zone then went out and killed turkeys. I knew that I needed a good pattern to kill a turkey, that was common sense. I had also shot a shotgun enough to know that the reason I was shooting shotshells was to make it easier to hit the target, especially if it's moving. If I wanted a single projectile, like I did for squirrels, I shot a 22 rifle.
Nothing wrong with improving the pattern, but don't try to sell me on its necessary beyond reason.
ok, im new to turkey hunting, but not new to hunting or shooting. when im at the range shooting, i shoot a turkey target. i am more worried about the 10 or 15 pellets consistently hitting the head and neck than i am about the number of holes outside of the head and neck. of course i understand that a turkey is a live animal and not a piece of paper, and that animals move, and i also check the consistency around the head and neck and i might not have more than a hundred, but they are always dense enough that at least 10 pellets are gonna hit the head and neck for up to 6 inches to the left or right.
jmo
charlie
I have personally shot plenty of paper, bought numerous chokes, and spent enough on turkey loads to buy another turkey gun. Sounds ridiculous right! The benefits of all this is simply that I have pretty good idea what my gun will do at any given yardage. I ended up choosing what works best for me.
As far the quest for how Many? Sometimes, I think my motivation was similar to why someone tinkers with a hot rod, just to see what it can do. Its kinda like my Toyota Camry will run the speed limit and get me from point A to B, but it sure is fun to snag the keys of the father-in-laws Vette.
As far as the old Turkey Head n Neck targets, if you have a dense even pattern in a 10" or 12" etc., you will consistanly put pellets in the vitals. My neighbor brought me one of his targets with the head and a 12"circle on it, showing me how well his #4 lead had done, he had 5 pellets in the vitals, plenty with #4 lead, then pointed out that 1" to the left, he would have none, 2" right he only has two.
To each his own,
Clint
i get what your saying johndoe, and i have my guns poa/poi about as close to perfect as i can get, ive honestly in almost 20 years of shooting shotguns(got my first 20 gauge youth at 6) never counted the amount in a circle. ive always just been taught by my granddad and dad to check for consistency in patterning and look to the left and right of your poi to see how dense it is to make sure it will do the job on a moving animal. heck this afternoon when i shoot i may very well decide to draw me a circle and count, but im not gonna be upset and change everything if my counts not 200
charlie
I agree with almost every post on this topic....Personally speaking I want the ABSOLUTELY BEST performance out of my set up because first of all I have alot of money in my set ups...Why do people get a new truck and tint the windows, get bigger and more shiny rims, a better stereo...Because they want to personalize their truck...Why do Nascar teams continue to tinker with their cars even after winning the pole position....People who like to tinker with their set ups, it isn't because it may be necessary but because maybe they want to extend their turkey season as much as possible and this is a way to do so...I want to know what my gun and load will do at ALL ranges and I want the best load, choke, gun, combo that I can get....I enjoy every aspect of Turkey Hunting and this is one of them...Truth be known more turkeys have been killed with an old squirrel gun with 2.75 shells than all the new loads and guns combined..I Enjoy Turkey Hunting because of all of these different aspects...Just my 2 cents..If you are happy with what you got then great...As for me I don't want to get complacent with anything I have. If something better comes about than I want to try it...The only competition I'm in is with a Turkey...And I want every advantage that I can get...
i have read this thread from beginning to end and i hear alot of folks talk about killing birds with 2 3/4'' shells of whatever they had, but i have yet to hear about the birds that flew or ran away and i guarantee you there were some. i think htl shot is the greatest think since screw in chokes, because of its density and its hardness.
i shot a bird several years ago (pre htl) at 38 measured yards with copper plated #4's. the bird flipped flopped and ran away befoe i could get out of the briars. my gun routinely threw 110-130 lead 4's in the 10 ring. the next year i killed a bird in the same area with hevishot, when i cleaned it i found 4, copperplated 4's against the neck bone, lightly flattened on one side. i have personally lost 5 birds in several years of hunting with lead 4's and they were all 45 yads and closer, and like i said my gun threw i good pattern for that load. since #6 hevi shot came out i have yet to have a bird get away, and there have been several.
I average 185 in a 10" circle @ 40 yards.
Good enough for me.
I had another post that I must not have posted that clarified my stance on this a little better than my first post.
I only debate these posts for the sake of conversation. I don't have any problems with guys improveing their patterns. If I wasn't quite impressed with what some of you do, I'd stay over in the general forum.
The only difference I have with this effort is what constitutes an improved or good pattern. If I get a great pattern at 40, 50, 60, but have no room for error at 25, I don't call that a great pattern. I'd call it shooting myself in the foot. However, if my pattern will kill one stone dead at 40, gives me plenty of fudge room to 50 and still throws a reasonable pattern at 20.........I don't think I can improve on that if it means a golf ball pattern at 20. I would not call that a "the best you can be". I don't really mind if the rest of the guys do. I understand its a passion as much as turkey hunting itself. I just don't care for it being implied that I'm choosing to settle for less.
The truth be known a large portion of guys are improving on these incredible patterns for one purpose, even if they won't admit it, to increase their effective range to ranges that I don't really care to shoot. If I did I'd kill em with a rifle.
I enjoy working on my gun in the offseason and it adds to the enjoyment of turkey hunting for me.
I have much less concern about guys doing extra homework to maximize their guns potential than I do about the guys that seem to pride themselves on not needing the big numbers as an excuse to fail to pattern their guns. (not saying that's what this is by the OP)
....point being, it irritates me to no end to roll up to hunting camp and have a guy get out with a gun,choke and load of lead 4's with NO idea what he shoots on the pattern board and says its because he's been killing em like that for years and no need to change.
I would rather have the guy that goes to the bench before the season to work out his combo for max results.
I agree. Also patterning is hard work. If you can talk yourself out of needing to do it your save a lot of time and money.
I both agree and disagree with a lot of points in this thread. I refuse to spend the price of Nitro's on shells, but I do want to start handloading to maximize effectiveness. I shoot lead and probably always will, but I know its limitations and do not push its limits. I am willing to go home empty handed unless I know beyond a shadow of a doubt if I pull the trigger it is a dead turkey. I enjoy seeing you guys put up huge numbers and show off your rigs, but I don't spend a lot on turkey hunting trips or leases and can hunt 5 or 6 days a week for two months of season so I am not putting that kind of money in scopes and chokes...
I don't want new guys to turkey hunting to think they can't go turkey hunting unless they have a camo gun with a scope and a IC choke shooting Nitro's. I think if you are responsible with your setup and know its limitations, whatever you hunt with is good to go.
Please don't take offense at this any of you cause I am not trying to be controversial, but rather trying to explain my stance on the topic.
Daman