Tom with a short beard or an older Jake with a more developed beard?
How do you know.
Show the spurs / Fan
That's all you got to go on. Grass is too tall to see spurs.
Cant see the tips of primary wing feathers, Jake's will not be barred.
From what I can see it's a tom.
It's the last one or two feathers you look at.
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Ahhh, yes...a test on wild turkey anatomy... ;D :D
Based on the secondary coverts on the wings and the literature regarding aging turkeys from that, I would say that is a mature tom. It looks to me like those coverts are fully developed. In addition, the pronounced barring on the primary wing feathers and what appears to be significant wear from strutting screams "mature gobbler" to me.
Like Greg indicates, however, I would rely more on the fan differences for any bird "on the hoof", and if I had one that had succumbed to lead poisoning, I would further verify by assessing the spurs.
On that specific gobbler...which I am speculating is a Merriam's, or predominately so based on the tail coverts we can see, I would also be inclined to declare it to be a mature tom just based on the beard length and thickness. Around these parts, at least, Merriam's jakes generally will have shorter, less-developed beards and many will have no visible beards at all.
Gobblenut not quite what I am looking for.
It's a Rio but that doesn't matter.
Twice I have used this method to identify jake or tom. Both came in from behind me at 20 yards give or take. Really couldn't get a good look at the beard. Just the angling away profile. Both birds smelled a rat and were fixing to leave soon. No way the we're going to show their tail fan.
Had a good shot...but do I take it.
Bang bang dinner!!
Quote from: squidd on May 11, 2025, 05:42:54 PMBang bang dinner!!
Yeah but...tender or tough. :goofball:
Tender enough
If you don't know, don't shoot
Obviously, someone noticed something that caused him/her to shoot. Now, please share with the class so we can all learn.
The speculum. That big bronze-ish patch in the center on the wing. It's quite visible even with wings folded. Color is vibrant and the patch very full on a Tom. A Jake's is pretty dull and not as filled out. The gobbler needs to be close to be identifiable but it can be an option in the right situation.
Tom's head can be an indetifier but heads change color and size depending on mood, and not as easily done at times, especially when they aren't in close proximity.
I have also seen Jake's with a full fan...
For the first time this year I also saw a Jake with 3 breads, had him at 15 yards
I think the states with a no jake rule base it on beard length. If that's true then it appears to be a legal bird most everywhere.. Might be a little iffy if 6" beard required. Agree with the if you don't know and it's going to be a problem don't shoot.
Quote from: joey46 on May 12, 2025, 06:17:35 AMI think the states with a no jake rule base it on beard length. If that's true then it appears to be a legal bird most everywhere.. Might be a little iffy if 6" beard required. Agree with the if you don't know and it's going to be a problem don't shoot.
Yep. If 6" was the rule, I would certainly be hesitating on shooting that bird. I had exactly that experience in Mississippi a few years ago. I had a gobbler walk by that had a beard just about like the one in Treerooster's picture. Fortunately, I didn't have to make the decision to shoot or not in that I was lying flat on my back taking a nap at the time and he didn't give me the chance in that he skeedaddled at my first move to get into shooting position. :D
Quote from: Greg Massey on May 11, 2025, 07:08:50 PMI have also seen Jake's with a full fan...
For the first time this year I also saw a Jake with 3 breads, had him at 15 yards
Had a friend that shot a bird with Jake spurs, Jake beard and what he thought was a full fan. When looked at closely tho the 6 center tail feathers were about 1/2" to 3/4" longer than the rest of the fan.
I believe it was a Jake that for some reason had its adult tail feathers coming in just slightly longer than the juvenile ones. It would be very hard to determine that at any distance. That's what I think of whenever someone talks about a full fan Jake.
Anamalies happen in nature but feather moult is a pretty solid trait.
Quote from: zelmo1 on May 11, 2025, 06:23:36 PMIf you don't know, don't shoot
;) :icon_thumright: That's how I do it Z. I called in a male bird a few weeks ago. It snuck up a hill and peeked over the top with just his head and neck showing. It looked like a mature tom but I couldn't tell, so I didn't shoot. It finally walked the rest of the way up. Small body, short beard, a jake.
Early born Jake. That wing band is not full.
Jake, wing patch is not full
My biggest concern with these no Jakes rules is the multitude of hunters that may shoot one with a 5" beard then say "oopsie" thought it was 6" and leave it for the coyotes. My IMO is that it happens in states such as MS more often than some think. Again only a public land problem. Mistakes on private easily put in the trunk and cleaned later. Of course they are never reported if mandatory harvest reporting is required. A waste on many levels. Personally if a licensed legal hunter takes a Jake, counts it in his limit, it is fine with me. We can be an elitist bunch at times.
davids9 and austinc are correct.
But I already posted the answer above. :)
Quote from: Treerooster on May 11, 2025, 04:07:27 PMThat's all you got to go on. Grass is too tall to see spurs.
Than look at the head and snood
Wing feathers says Tom. Spurs and fan not pictured for confirmation but I'm saying Tom. The little bit of back and fan plumage shown looks like a Meriam or possibly a Rio so a lacking beard is not uncommon.
Quote from: Bowguy on May 15, 2025, 06:04:20 PMQuote from: Treerooster on May 11, 2025, 04:07:27 PMThat's all you got to go on. Grass is too tall to see spurs.
Than look at the head and snood
How is the snood on a Jake different from a Tom's? And make it and identifiable at 20 to 30 yards?
Quote from: Treerooster on May 16, 2025, 08:50:29 AMQuote from: Bowguy on May 15, 2025, 06:04:20 PMQuote from: Treerooster on May 11, 2025, 04:07:27 PMThat's all you got to go on. Grass is too tall to see spurs.
Than look at the head and snood
How is the snood on a Jake different from a Tom's? And make it and identifiable at 20 to 30 yards?
It's usually noticeably bigger. The head size and shape def are. I was showing a guy last week exactly that.
At 20-30 yards my I can tell and my eyes are rough anymore.
I'll not say anything could be perfect but if I see a small head, less pronounced snood well you tell me
At this time and places I hunt I won't shoot a Jake. If I make a mistake it won't be a disaster. He'll end up being counted in my limit and cooked in the oven. IMO not a big deal. Seems to be big deal to the elitist clique at times on certain forums. Some people that actually work and have limited time to hunt are more than happy with a Jake harvest. Good for them.
Quote from: joey46 on May 16, 2025, 09:54:19 AMAt this time and places I hunt I won't shoot a Jake. If I make a mistake it won't be a disaster. He'll end up being counted in my limit and cooked in the oven. IMO not a big deal. Seems to be big deal to the elitist clique at times on certain forums. Some people that actually work and have limited time to hunt are more than happy with a Jake harvest. Good for them.
I finally agree w ya!!
Quote from: joey46 on May 16, 2025, 09:54:19 AMAt this time and places I hunt I won't shoot a Jake. If I make a mistake it won't be a disaster. He'll end up being counted in my limit and cooked in the oven. IMO not a big deal. Seems to be big deal to the elitist clique at times on certain forums. Some people that actually work and have limited time to hunt are more than happy with a Jake harvest. Good for them.
I like to take just Toms and I agree with you.
But that's not what this thread was about. I just wanted to show another way to identify a Tom from a Jake. But mention Jake & Tom in the same sentence and it's a darn good bet the thread will go to the debate.
And the head is another way but to me that speculum stands out. If nothing else it's just a confirmation.
More than one way to skin a cat and everyone observations could be considered. It's better to have second, third things to check to help with id as you're noting. I'd not think anything was a debate. Just additional info
No I meant the debate of whether or not to shoot a Jake. Sorry if I wasn't clear.
Gotcha sorry I misunderstood you.