....When your family vacation is derailed. When, where you have went on vacation the residents decide there are too many Nonresidents there for them to be able to enjoy their area.
When the residents start to complain they only have a day or two to enjoy these areas. That Nonresidents are always there, they can never enjoy it alone.
They don't get to experience the whole picture without competition to a spot. That Nonresidents should be restricted, so they can have unlimited access at will.
Think of this as a beach. As a destination, that you have always wanted to see. Think of this as America, Public land. Land that your tax dollars subsidize, but a small number don't want you to see/enjoy.
SD is doing that now "Along with many other states". I really wish all states would reciprocate this.
The locals are pissed. They are pissed because they can't kill a turkey! "By the reported numbers" 69% of Black hills turkeys are killed by Nonresidents. Think about it! Why?
Turkey hunters travel to go there. They intend to kill a turkey. That is their goal. The locals are upset when they see a Nonresidents license plate parked. They live there, go hunt... Stop the crying and whining, and so for all the other states.
I don't really care if you only have X amount of vacation and can only hunt on Saturday. I have vacation and can get another job tomorrow if needed. I intend to turkey hunt when season is in to the best of my wallet.
I really feel the local and state biologist should be setting the regs for all to follow and not the good ole boys in the back of the room.
It really irked me to read the SD B.S. the other day. The added part from one of their turkey hunting organizers really summed it up for me, "We want it to ourselves" was his message.
I hunted in the BH's, didn't see a soul. Yes, there where other people hunting, I heard them shooting in the distance, that's everywhere you go! Especially the first day of season.
Entitlement is all it is, plain and simple. And No, they are not entitled to it more than anyone else as long as the resource can sustain it!
Sorry, I read this article a couple days ago. And it did bug me. I will most likely never hunt the BH again regardless. But limiting everyone because Joe Smo hasn't evolved enough to kill a turkey is not the answer.
Go and Hunt and hunt harder when that doesn't work.
I hadn't heard the news so went and found it.
https://southdakotasearchlight.com/2024/07/12/resident-v-nonresident-dispute-yields-plan-limiting-out-of-state-hunting-licenses/
Basically, SD Game and Fish has proposed to cap the # of NR turkey tags for the Black Hills. They chose a number 30% lower than the amount of NR licenses solid this year to get it more in line with historical normal NR license sales. Good for them.
This year residents obtained 346 FEWER licenses than NR. And NR killed 69% of the turkey.
For folks upset about it, you REALLY should be upset with the YouTubers and social media hunting bros who have continually been pimping out areas left and right all over the nation. They are the reason for the massive spikes in hunting pressure to specific destinations and the non-resident restrictions we keep seeing implemented. If you interact with their content, you have noone to blame but yourself.
What state will be next? Kentucky has discussed it in the past. Missouri is knocking on record levels of NR turkey hunters. Florida is actively discussing it. Exciting times!
Some data I found on Black Hills turkey. So bout 500 more NR licenses sold this spring vs last spring. And 6,000 licenses total sold. To further put it into perspective: Non-residents acquired 3,170 licenses this spring and in 2015 only 3,877 TOTAL licenses were sold. So NR acquired ~82% of 2015's total during this past spring season.
(https://i.imgur.com/IRf6u4Z.png)
It is the damndest thing that if paralleled to other things we do as American citizens that what if we were told that our driver license's were possibly invalid outside our home state depending on how many others drove there before we did. That the residences had first dibs on the road resources?
How about right to carry that is not universal across the nation? My home state of NY is one of the worst for that. Are we only state citizens, not American citizens? Sorry but last time I checked my passport it says I am an American Citizen, What say you?
Do any of you have the notion that the right to hunt is a basic right? Yet we yield to all these fees, and 100's of laws to hunt. This is on top of what is paid in taxes to fund wildlife management and research. Foolishly I could argue that I don't need to pay taxes that fund wildlife management or research in your state? Don't worry, I won't be taking that position. Yet some of you have a holier than thou attitude and pissed off about neighbors that won't let you hunt their property. Maybe that is a microcosm of resident/non-resident discussions.
The epidemy of self entitlement and exclusionary thinking.
That's ok when they loose enough revenue from licenses, supplies, lodging, etc. they may change their minds! I agree with WV Flopper it is all BS!
Some of the states with 130,000+ turkey hunter's must be saying only 5500tags sold in that state let's go there!
Wow, some of you have an attitude of entitlement that is misplaced. South Dakota, and every other state, has a responsibility to manage its resources for the benefits of the residents of South Dakota. Residents of a particular state accrue benefits of that state by their living, working, and paying taxes in that state. Nonresidents simply do not have the same rights and privileges as the residents of a state. When a limited resource is being stressed and restrictions are needed then a state has the obligation to limit nonresidents before limiting residents.
I am all for the residents taking priority when it comes to the natural resources in their state. Good for them.
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As a Nonresident of 49 states I really don't see it as entitlement. Once I plan, make preparations, and ultimately, LEGALLY, spend monies to obtain a state and local license. I do, at that point feel entitled to be able to enjoy what I paid for. Nothing else.
As stated originally, State biologist should be doing their job and setting a harvest number to protect whatever game animal is being targeted. I am hopeful we are all in agreement with that, very simple concept even the nonreading comprehensive people should be able to get.
Living in a state has nothing to do with first choice in BLM or National Forest Lands. Those are the people that believe they are entitled. I am still of the mindset that if someone beats me to the spot they have the spot for the day. No more, no less.
I think its great,it will cut down on the garbage of chasing the 49...It will show who's in it for the fame and who's not.
Im sure all the you tubers will get vip passes tho,so maybe those who are hurt by this can watch,maybe by then it will be live stream..Fingers crossed for you guys!!
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Curious, how will it cut down on those that are chasing 49?
People give up..if they have to draw tags or don't make the deadline..Like i said it will show who's in it for fame and who's not
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Quote from: WV Ridge Reaper on July 19, 2024, 10:25:41 PMPeople give up..if they have to draw tags or don't make the deadline..Like i said it will show who's in it for fame and who's not
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Maybe Sd should do a points system like lots of states do for elk and other big game?!?!?
Open the wallets up,it will sniff the true born out but i figure the youtube crowed with all the sponsors,it wont slow them down...Money and jealously is the root of all evil...i have traveled been threw the phase its great...But give me two weeks in my home state and i can be just as happy,a turkey is a turkey to me coast to coast
I think its cool that people can do the 49 but do it for the right reasons...RESPECT the animal...you do you and ill do me !!!
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Not surprised, I have even had people say they want them for themselves here on this site, horrible attitude to have. It really bugs me when you have states with say 6 tom take in a season and people think non residents should not get the chance or new people should not get the chance because they are the reason for the decline but don't want to drop the amount of turkey they can take in a season to help prevent the loss of the turkey. Nothing be greed and MINE, MINE, MINE, MINE! Reminds me of a six year old.
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you are seeing the tip of the iceberg now. Just wait
I am all for state rights and I believe residents do have inherent rights that non residents don't have. As a property owner surrounded by out of state lease holders I get aggravated by the problems it creates. Yes they paid their hard earned money and they are entitled to what they paid for, but that does not give them a license to be arseholes and trespass. Some are very good, but many have the rape and pillage attitude of taking what they want. I also enjoy traveling to hunt new areas and I often strike up friendly relations with locals. I see this from both sides. When it comes to public land, especially National forest, I struggle with controlling access. What most don't consider is almost all states get money from Pittman Robertson and dingle Johnson Acts. Theses are federal excise taxes on all outdoor equipment used for conservation across the United States. This can be up to 75% of a states budget. SD should be careful, by limiting access they could loose some of these funds as they are apportioned by use. We all pay for the Black Hills area. The next thing to consider is the revenue many local business owner get from non residents, it's huge in the Black Hills. I know this because I have friends and family in the area. As usual, there are no simple answers. If it's a problem creating over harvest then address that, period. Giving residence first chance has it's merits, but limiting access to public federal land I don't see. If a landowner allows access or leases your favorite spot then take it up with them.
This has been going on for decades in the big game world. I put in for draws and preferenc points annually. Limiting non resident hunters is far from a new idea.
It's just new to turkey hunting. Many of us saw this coming years ago and few heeded the warning. Loose lips sink ships.
Some folks here really will have their mind blown when they hear about the Wyoming Wilderness rule. You can't hunt big game in a designated wilderness area of Wyoming without having a guide or resident serving as your "guide". You can hike, camp, fish, hunt small game, but no big game hunting. So federal lands that residents can big game hunt but non-residents can't without a major restriction. On top of that, non-residents have to draw a tag that residents can buy over the counter in a lot of units.
Like the poster above mentioned, limiting non-residents is nothing new. I see a lot of talk about "challenging it in courts". Well go do it and let us know how that works out.
Many Western States do limit and control big game hunting. Wyoming has curtailed to the guides association, easy to see.
As stated, money I spend in any state can and does go to SD and many other states as well. These federal tax dollars are distributed across all states. The people of WV are not paying any more money than people from Nevada for WV national forest lands.
Really, this post of mine has and is only an experiment. Just really wanted to see how long it took for people to point the finger at You Tube for the distress.
Looking back at the post, I was more than correct in my wager.
I want to bring some things to light. I am thinking a lot of our turkey hunters/posters today are young, maybe just haven't been able to follow along for the last 40 years...
I have never submitted a video to you tube, I personally don't think I know anyone who has. I do not video my hunts, my choice, I see no issue with it. I do not have an issue with videos of any sort on you tube of the sporting nature if specific locations are not mentioned. A state name is not specific, The "Black Hills" are not specific to me considering they encompass two states and a pile of territory.
You Tube is an easy avenue for an amateur videographer to submit their story. Turkey hunting to be specific has been on main stream TV since I was a teenager! I am 51. The WTF has and is recruiting and promoting turkey hunting like no one else. Now,70% will say WTF is the best ever for the turkey? Some say they are an organization that makes money from the wild turkey. Regardless, the WTF has done a lot for the turkey! States recruit new hunters consistently. I can not and will not comment on TFT, I am ignorant of their agenda.
The point being: The commercialization of turkey hunting started more years ago than half these you tubers have been alive. To place verbally and in public forum blame on You Tube posters directly for this is a clear indication of ignorance or denial. So which is it?
A lot want to forget Knight and Hale, Preston Pittman, Dick Kirby, Will Primose....Where did it start... Way before you tube!
Denial and ignorance...... I'm afraid there is a lot of that going on right now. But not with the people you were attempting to put it on. Cheers
Quote from: WV Flopper on July 20, 2024, 01:17:41 PMMany Western States do limit and control big game hunting. Wyoming has curtailed to the guides association, easy to see.
As stated, money I spend in any state can and does go to SD and many other states as well. These federal tax dollars are distributed across all states. The people of WV are not paying any more money than people from Nevada for WV national forest lands.
Really, this post of mine has and is only an experiment. Just really wanted to see how long it took for people to point the finger at You Tube for the distress.
Looking back at the post, I was more than correct in my wager.
I want to bring some things to light. I am thinking a lot of our turkey hunters/posters today are young, maybe just haven't been able to follow along for the last 40 years...
I have never submitted a video to you tube, I personally don't think I know anyone who has. I do not video my hunts, my choice, I see no issue with it. I do not have an issue with videos of any sort on you tube of the sporting nature if specific locations are not mentioned. A state name is not specific, The "Black Hills" are not specific to me considering they encompass two states and a pile of territory.
You Tube is an easy avenue for an amateur videographer to submit their story. Turkey hunting to be specific has been on main stream TV since I was a teenager! I am 51. The WTF has and is recruiting and promoting turkey hunting like no one else. Now,70% will say WTF is the best ever for the turkey? Some say they are an organization that makes money from the wild turkey. Regardless, the WTF has done a lot for the turkey! States recruit new hunters consistently. I can not and will not comment on TFT, I am ignorant of their agenda.
The point being: The commercialization of turkey hunting started more years ago than half these you tubers have been alive. To place verbally and in public forum blame on You Tube posters directly for this is a clear indication of ignorance or denial. So which is it?
A lot want to forget Knight and Hale, Preston Pittman, Dick Kirby, Will Primose....Where did it start... Way before you tube!
So its all just happenstance that the popularity of travel turkey hunting began to increase once a few prominent channels began to take off in popularity? Just happenstance that the very areas, even specific WMAs began to see significant increases in pressure after folks aired them to the world to see? Just happenstance you run across turkey hunters dressed like their heroes with their hero's logo plastered on their back glass? Just happenstance draw odds tanked and non-resident license sales massively exploded following the highlight of certain states?
Also coincidence that a lot of western big game YouTubers/influencers who used to talk down on turkey and never gave a dang about turkey, are now filming turkey hunting themselves and even traveling for turkey? No, not coincidence. They saw dollars to be made pimping out the resource so hopped on the turkey exploitation bandwagon that their eastern counterparts had begun.
To some of us, the Black Hills is pretty specific. Although the Black Hills encompass a ton of land in SD, they don't encompass a whole lot in Wyoming. If this proposal passes, Wyoming Black Hills will just get more pressure. As someone who has hunted the Black Hills in both states multiple times and witnessed the increases in pressure, I fully support the proposal.
The OGs you mentioned who first brought turkey hunting to light did not have near the impact on public lands the YouTube era has brought. We have witnessed a SUBSTANTIAL loss of public land hunting opportunities in a hurry in this current era. If you can't recognize what is happening, you simply haven't gotten around to hunting public land in a lot of states where these issues have reared their ugly head. You haven't looked at the data where you can see it staring you in the eye. Or you are just in denial.
Now is YouTube the sole cause of all this? No. Social media in general is. But YouTube was a major stepping stone.
If you want to get specific about your spending and the Federal monies being spent towards wildlife management in all states..... Nonhunters put more money in the pot than hunters. Think about that for a minute.
So, your blaming the southeastern United States turkey population solely on you tube and social media?
Are Oklahoma and Kansas in that same boat as the southeast?
Are you trying to say millions of dollars of wages and millions of dollars of research are being wasted and the answer is Social Media? Surely your not.
I will agree on one thing. It will come a day! Where we can't hunt anywhere at free will. The limitations being set by states to control Nonresidents will only add more pressure to states that have not set those controls in place yet. You can be assured that Wyoming will happen in the next three years.
And yes, it may just be a coincidence that today so many are traveling. Possibly due to income and age, "ME". Also the limitations of big game hunting and availability of tags for such. Hunters like to hunt, the turkey is the poor man's elk!
All states to Reciprocate!
Quote from: WV Flopper on July 20, 2024, 03:28:05 PMSo, your blaming the southeastern United States turkey population solely on you tube and social media?
Are Oklahoma and Kansas in that same boat as the southeast?
Are you trying to say millions of dollars of wages and millions of dollars of research are being wasted and the answer is Social Media? Surely your not.
I will agree on one thing. It will come a day! Where we can't hunt anywhere at free will. The limitations being set by states to control Nonresidents will only add more pressure to states that have not set those controls in place yet. You can be assured that Wyoming will happen in the next three years.
And yes, it may just be a coincidence that today so many are traveling. Possibly due to income and age, "ME". Also the limitations of big game hunting and availability of tags for such. Hunters like to hunt, the turkey is the poor man's elk!
All states to Reciprocate!
I never once mentioned the southeast turkey population. lol. Yes, I am blaming social media (even including forums back in the day) and YouTube for loss of public land hunting opportunities.
Oklahoma and Kansas have different environmental and habitat issues than the southeast, but yes, they both dealt with increasing non-resident pressure as well. Kansas implemented a draw to help deal with it. Something many will argue should have done years sooner. We can go ahead and jump a state north to Nebraska and see what they had to do to curtail the issue.
I have no clue what you are talking about in your third statement regarding millions of wasted dollars and social media? I just stated that non-hunters fund way more Pittman Robertson dollars than hunters.
We both can agree on the loss of public land hunting opportunity, just not on the path that has landed us in the current situation. Its never going to get better, and a few are willing to expedite the trajectory for the sake of $$, likes, follows, and subscribes. The American dream, eh?
Quote from: deerhunt1988 on July 20, 2024, 02:19:00 PMQuote from: WV Flopper on July 20, 2024, 01:17:41 PMIf you want to get specific about your spending and the Federal monies being spent towards wildlife management in all states..... Nonhunters put more money in the pot than hunters. Think about that for a minute.
I know what your saying but that is debatable as it has never been quantitatively proven. Many who buy firearms for defense or recreation also are sportsmen/women. They only compare the hunting license sales to general population overall. If you have data I'd like to see it. I managed for a state agency and a very large part of our funding was from the feds. Most states rely on this money and it's true that some things taxed are general recreation items but, they use the outdoors in their use. So I disagree. PT has way more of this then DJ. In DJ almost all the tax is by fishermen and aquatic users. My funding was from DJ. see these links for an explanation
Here's info on PT https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittman%E2%80%93Robertson_Federal_Aid_in_Wildlife_Restoration_Act
https://wildlifeforall.us/resources/pittman-robertson-wildlife-restoration-act-explained/
and DJ
https://wildlifeforall.us/resources/dingell-johnson-sport-fish-restoration-act-explained/
In the end I believe the issue should be protecting the resource and not just a user conflict.
This whole subject has been beat too death repeatedly.
I've never personally met anyone that actually hunts public land that hasn't seen a negative effect on the resource by the YouTube crowd and their hordes of wannabe followers.
Most often its some guy that hunts a couple days a year in his state and then hunted out of state one time with his buddy, they shot a Turkey and thought it was the best day ever lol.
They are absolutely clueless as to the real world on public lands.
If you hunt 5 days a year spend most of your time buying calls and watching YouTube you don't have any idea what has happened.
Some of us you should know have been hunting out of state for decades before some YouTube clown gave you the idea. I've seen the negative effects.
As for as hot spotting. NOT showing WMA names and specific locations is the brand new thing. For years they went out of their way to let people k ow where they hunted. The damage was/is mostly already done.
Thank you Eggshell for bringing this up. I to am ready to learn because I am ignorant of all of the government funds and how exactly they are distributed.
I do know in WV I pay a National Forest Stamp fee to hunt the lands. Campers, hikers, bicyclist, bird watchers are not required to pay this fee. Only people carrying a gun with intent to kill an animal.
Quote from: Happy on July 19, 2024, 04:37:38 PMI am all for the residents taking priority when it comes to the natural resources in their state. Good for them.
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Nailed it 100%.
Quote from: Happy on July 19, 2024, 04:37:38 PMI am all for the residents taking priority when it comes to the natural resources in their state. Good for them.
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Nailed it 100%.
Has the thought "Data" ever been explored about what the age groups of all these travelers are?
I am betting that a larger proportion of these travelers are older, 45 and up. Absolutely, younger people travel to hunt, no question! I have spoke with them, and mostly they stand out and are very obvious. But I am betting more older hunters than younger. Way more.
I went to Florida and hunted when I was about 25. It was a bust for me!!! The hunt was centered around a trip to Disney, I hunted a few mornings but had to be back early to go to do the girlfriend thing "Lack of clear priorities on my part". It was a trip of opportunity for me. Even though I was unsuccessful.
Twenty years later I started to travel. I can now find, stash, hide the money to afford to go. I shouldn't say it that way. I have the money to go.
I am 51. Watched knight and Hale, Will Primose and all the other OG's. Now is the time I can do this! I am not on a financial island by my self! There are thousands of guys on this island wanting to go hunting. We are older,we research, we go, we kill. How much of your data is tracking AGE of hunter.
As stated, this is the poor man's elk hunt. But Ten of Thousands of us poor men can now do as we wish financially to go turkey hunting?
So, DH1988 and ArkRem what does your data show on this?
My biggest issue with the Black Hills specifically is that it's not a state forest, it's a National.
"In the United States, national forest is a classification of protected and managed federal lands that are largely forest and woodland areas. They are owned collectively by the American people through the federal government and managed by the United States Forest Service, a division of the United States Department of Agriculture. The U.S. Forest Service is also a forestry research organization which provides financial assistance to state and local forestry industry.[1] There are 154 national forests in the United States."
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Custer State Park is right in the middle of the black hills and I believe non residents are not allowed to turkey hunt in it. Residents already have an exclusive parcel of land within the Black Hills.
I have been a traveling turkey and deer hunter for a long time. Way before YouTube or the hunting channels on tv. I'm not a slam chaser, I just love hunting. I have never had a problem with the way each state regulates the land within that state. This issue has been going on for a long time, it's just more wide spread across the country now days. I was privileged enough to get to hunt SD years ago when it was good and got to witness the numbers decline just like many other states as hunting got popular. I live in a state that has a draw hunt for the first 3 days of turkey in a national forest. I have never been drawn for as long as this has been going on, and live in the same county. I always consider it as a donation. I don't get pissed off I just go somewhere else. I also own property in another state that has a lottery system for bear tags only for the residents. No nonresidents. Not even land owners, I don't whine about it, I just let my neighbors bear hunt if they happen to draw a tag. As far as wanting the federal government to intervene, well this would probably be a complete disaster. For example the powers at be right now can't even define what a woman is so I definitely don't want them messing around with our hunting. At the end of the day we all should be thankful we still are able to hunt. As long as the decisions that are made from state to state are for the better of the turkey populations I'm all for whatever that decision is. But we all have our own opinions. This is just my 2 cents.
I believe this horse has been sufficiently beaten, but here is the bottom line for those folks wanting change: The system that is in place now is based on existing interpretation of wildlife law regarding "state's rights" in this country...and ALL across the country. It very likely ain't gonna change folks.
You can TRY to change the laws (again, very unlikely)...or you can deal with it by staying abreast of the changes in the different states as they occur and modifying your hunting preparations and strategies to try to best take advantage of those changes.
Lots of truth in the last several posts.
Thanks guys, I respect that.
I've hunted several states that require a draw for limited turkey tags. Some states limit non resident tags while other states that have a x amount of tags give residents first choice.
What I've found, great turkey populations in those states and well worth drawing for. I do think residents of the state should have first choice when tags are limited. Look at Arizona, they limit all big game and turkey tags to a maximum of just 10% non residents.
Only my opinion of course. Again, I don't mind drawing as a non resident. If I don't get it, I'll keep drawing until I do. I'm a guest in their state, where they pay taxes daily.
Quote from: merriamsman on July 19, 2024, 12:45:23 PMWow, some of you have an attitude of entitlement that is misplaced. South Dakota, and every other state, has a responsibility to manage its resources for the benefits of the residents of South Dakota. Residents of a particular state accrue benefits of that state by their living, working, and paying taxes in that state. Nonresidents simply do not have the same rights and privileges as the residents of a state. When a limited resource is being stressed and restrictions are needed then a state has the obligation to limit nonresidents before limiting residents.
It is either PUBLIC Land.... Or it is not. If it also carries the moniker of Federal or National then you as a resident have no more right to it than I. I have stated this many times. It doesn't matter what the law may say. I may have to abide by that law, BUT it does not make it right.
This is a free country. Hunting your home state or another state is still a privilege....and not just for the Privileged.
You see it everyday on here, people complaining about the YouTubers bring attention to their public land.
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It's been a long hot summer, thankfully, it's almost over.
I just read the post...
I am on the resident's side on this one. Residents should have the priority to hunt their own state.
Agree with the original post- the " entitlement" is the residents.... Let's take it a step farther: you Black Hills residents stay off the ocean beaches: don't eat gulf coast seafood, please refrain from visiting Disney with your grandkids, don't head south when it's winter, Anotherwords, since you are being so selfish, stay home and do not in anyway engage in hospitality offered elsewhere. Not just hunting... that is the door that's being opened.
Quote from: mookyj on July 19, 2024, 10:35:33 AMIt is the damndest thing that if paralleled to other things we do as American citizens that what if we were told that our driver license's were possibly invalid outside our home state depending on how many others drove there before we did. That the residences had first dibs on the road resources?
How about right to carry that is not universal across the nation? My home state of NY is one of the worst for that. Are we only state citizens, not American citizens? Sorry but last time I checked my passport it says I am an American Citizen, What say you?
Do any of you have the notion that the right to hunt is a basic right? Yet we yield to all these fees, and 100's of laws to hunt. This is on top of what is paid in taxes to fund wildlife management and research. Foolishly I could argue that I don't need to pay taxes that fund wildlife management or research in your state? Don't worry, I won't be taking that position. Yet some of you have a holier than thou attitude and pissed off about neighbors that won't let you hunt their property. Maybe that is a microcosm of resident/non-resident discussions.
The epidemy of self entitlement and exclusionary thinking.
You think NY is bad? Don't even think about heading to Massachusetts for hunting purposes. If you are in possession of ANY semi automatic firearm and you're not a resident you are now I violation of a new law.