I am in the process of acquiring an old Fox 12 ga double barrel to turkey hunt with and was wondering who hunts with an old double and what gauge and shell do you use?
I do on occasion drag out the old Fox 10 gauge sxs. It has 30 or 32" barrels, I've never measured. I shoot copper plates lead out of it. I am nearly positive the last time I shot it I was using 2.5 ounces of 5's in the left barrel and 2.25 ounces of 6's in the right.
I've got a few old B's and 2's for it but I doubt I'll ever shoot them.
I carry a 12G Merkel SXS, X-Full on both barrels. The shells I have are 2 3/4" #5 Lead Pheasant loads, I believe they are 1 3/8 oz.
The old double barrel I have I use the same, the 2.3/4 lead Pheasant loads ... Better be careful using some of those shells because of the pressure they generate ...
Quote from: Greg Massey on February 14, 2024, 06:43:06 PM
The old double barrel I have I use the same, the 2.3/4 lead Pheasant loads ... Better be careful using some of those shells because of the pressure they generate ...
True, even though my gun has "modern/1970-1980" steel by comparison to some of the really old SXS, I am still on the conservative side relative to the shells I use. Heck, these shells will kill any turkey I want out to ranges I normally shoot.
The last several years sometimes hunt with an old Greener choked xfull/xfull, either #7.5 trap loads or #6 handloads in the right barrel and #4 handloads in the left barrel.
Picked up an old Fox this fall, Xfull/Xfull, same loads as above, but still doing some experimenting with wad combinations for tighter center core patterns.
Fun guns to hunt with, lots of history
Thanks for the input guys. The SxS i'm getting is full and full with excellent barrels. It was manufactured in 1913 and based on your input plus what I've picked up searching the internet, which is all over the place on this subject, I am going to take this gun to a gunsmith who specializes in old SxS's and have him inspect the gun and get his recommendation as to what I should shoot, Again, thanks very much for your input.
Besides chamber pressure, another thing to be careful of in the old guns is the 100 yr old wood and the stress recoil has on it.
The old Foxes and some other older guns had long tight chokes, some of my best center core patterns are with using combinations of traditional type wads, felt, cork, over shot cards and hard card (nitro cards)
some of the worst patterns are with modern plastic wads, usually the thicker the turkey/ buckshot type wad is the worse the pattern. Those same plastic wads in a modern turkey choked 870 do great
several guns do really well with the wad that Federal uses in their Top Gun 1145fps shells.
the factory load 7.5' pattern good and I use their wad with bigger shot for good patterns
Quote from: crow on February 17, 2024, 12:22:24 PM
Besides chamber pressure, another thing to be careful of in the old guns is the 100 yr old wood and the stress recoil has on it.
The old Foxes and some other older guns had long tight chokes, some of my best center core patterns are with using combinations of traditional type wads, felt, cork, over shot cards and hard card (nitro cards)
some of the worst patterns are with modern plastic wads, usually the thicker the turkey/ buckshot type wad is the worse the pattern. Those same plastic wads in a modern turkey choked 870 do great
several guns do really well with the wad that Federal uses in their Top Gun 1145fps shells.
the factory load 7.5' pattern good and I use their wad with bigger shot for good patterns
Thanks Crow
Have used a 1948 Winchester Model 21 in 16 gauge choked M/F with a Federal 1 1/8 ounce load of 6's in the cool purple hull. Worked just fine.
Have a 1933 Winchester Model 21 in 12 gauge choked IC/Full that I've yet to bloody. I shoot 2 3/4" Federal 6's with the FliteControl wad in it.
Cool guns to stroll around with.
While it's not an "old" double, my current gun is a CZ Bobwhite All-terrain 20ga, with a Skinner peep and front ramp sights. I have flush chokes: xf in the left (long barrel) and imp. Mod in the right
I have a couple I hunt with sometimes. Oldest being a english late 1800's BP cartridge gun. Call these guys. Very knowledgeable about older guns, pressures, ect. Super nice and can really help you find the right load for your gun and needs.
https://www.rstshells.com/
I have 3 old German 16 gauges. All from the 50's.
16 gauge sauer drilling
16 gauge and 7-57r side by side rifle/shotgun
16 gauge Merkel o/u
I really like it because they have 2 triggers. I shoot apex tss that was made for older guns.
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They all have full chokes and will kill at 40 yards.
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Quote from: Alabama556 on February 22, 2024, 10:28:00 PM
They all have full chokes and will kill at 40 yards.
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What size TSS shot do you use?
I have 8.5 and 9's. Both shoot great.
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Quote from: Alabama556 on February 22, 2024, 10:27:21 PM
I have 3 old German 16 gauges. All from the 50's.
16 gauge sauer drilling
16 gauge and 7-57r side by side rifle/shotgun
16 gauge Merkel o/u
I really like it because they have 2 triggers. I shoot apex tss that was made for older guns.
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Where do you find this TSS that was made for older Guns?
Apex made it for the importer of the guns and I got it from him. I will double check and see if the shells he sold me are different from the regular apex 2 3/4 16 gauge shells.
I bought several boxes of 8.5 and 9's along with several boxes of BB shot. All were from apex.
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I just confirmed that all the ammo from apex was its regular 2 3/4 16 gauge loads. 1 5/8 ounce of shot. Most of these guns are from post wwii and can handle modern shells. My friend just bought a bunch so he could have it to sell with his guns and by buying a bunch he could get 8.5's , 9's, and BB loads made for him.
Quote from: Alabama556 on February 23, 2024, 03:02:37 PM
I just confirmed that all the ammo from apex was its regular 2 3/4 16 gauge loads. 1 5/8 ounce of shot. Most of these guns are from post wwii and can handle modern shells. My friend just bought a bunch so he could have it to sell with his guns and by buying a bunch he could get 8.5's , 9's, and BB loads made for him.
Your Merkel is a rugged built gun but those loads most likely aren't low pressure or low recoil. your still dealing with 70-75 year old wood and 1 5/8oz in a 16ga. is pretty stout going to have recoil. Old guns can crack thru the wrist.
Most 12ga. 2 3/4" were regulated with 1 1/8th to 1 1/4 oz of shot.
What I have seen is that shooting more shot than what the gun was regulated for will usually throw off POI to POA. TSS will magnify this problem more than lead shot
Crow is right on the money!!! Please be careful, have a good one and May God bless y'all, Bo
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I only shoot it a few times a year.
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I totally understand!!! I love hunting with old guns, that's what they were meant for. I hope you get a biggun!!!
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I used my drilling on a rabbit hunt this weekend. That gun has nitro proofed barrels. I don't know if my other 16's are nitro proofed.
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I am an older mossback but new to the OG site. It has much valuable information.
I use a couple of Long Range 3-in LC Smiths. Also have a few AH Fox guns that pattern well. One of the advantages
of double guns is the instant ability to selectively load/use one's two barrels. This can be handy if an old wise gobbler
decides he needs to put some distance between you and him.
One barrel with # 6s and another with #4s sometimes really works. Or tss...**#$
Has anyone thought of the possibility of a separate Old Gobbler heading under Guns for : Vintage Guns ?
I think it would be welcomed for old doubles AND- turkey shotguns like the Winchester Model 12 Heavy Duck gun-which is quite famous,
welcome to the best turkey hunting community there is Mr. Super Fox, Shannon will post up a thread every couple of years asking if there is a need or want for additional thread areas, stick around and keep this active and it may happen.
Thanks, Jeff.
Shannon and I exchanged messages yesterday and he really liked the idea of possibly adding a subheading on:
Vintage Turkey Guns or...somesuch title. I do think it would get regular visitation by members and guests. I was a bit
slow to break the ice -as I am a new jake-but our administrator is patient and appreciative.
I have no new turkey shotguns, as I inherited quite a few Model 12s along with a few older American side X sides:
AH Fox BE Grade-1916
AH Fox XE Grade-1916
AH Fox HE Grade-1925 (Super-Fox 3 IN)
LC Smith Long Range-3 IN-1924
LC Smith " " "-3 IN ------1925
Parker-VHE -2 7/8 in(3 IN) 1925
Figuring out lead vs NT loads and patterns keeps me busy! But I was out with one of the LONG Range Smiths early this AM.
This same 99 yr old Elsie has slain two big gobblers in the last few years.
Honorary Member- tenth Legion
16ga AH Fox AE
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Older wood in older double guns: most of us who own older double guns are sensitive to the potential
problems inherent with modern ammunition. Some of my Fox guns are over 100 yrs old. They were made to last, but dry walnut
under the velocity and pressure of modern loads could exhibit cracking in the wrist and tang areas.
Most manufacturers place velocity on their shell boxes. Boss, Apex and others also make shells specifically for older double shotguns.
I have an AH Fox 1925 re-stocked HE Grade-that was made for ducks and geese. It weighs 9 pounds, however-which is equal to many 10 gauge
double Parkers and LC Smiths. AH Fox never ventured into the 10 Gauge shotgun market. Their HE Grades produced the same results in 3-inch /12 GA
with Super X Magnum shells. Special ammunition or low pressure lead shot shells may be the best answer for some of us.
If you know of other low-velocity or low-pressure shotshell manufacturers, please let us know. Good hunting to all.
---------------------------------Tenth Legion--------------------------------
Foxtrot--A manufacturer of tss shot shells make a 20 GA -2 3/4 in shell.
Trying to determine the velocity of their 20 ga shell before I subject
a 1926 Specialty Grade LC Smith to undue pressure.
Recently 2 3/4 20 GA requires a diligent search.
Quote from: Super Fox on April 06, 2024, 10:37:38 PM
Foxtrot--A manufacturer of tss shot shells make a 20 GA -2 3/4 in shell.
Trying to determine the velocity of their 20 ga shell before I subject
a 1926 Specialty Grade LC Smith to undue pressure.
Recently 2 3/4 20 GA requires a diligent search.
Send him an email, he would probably tell you pressures
If you load you own there are tss low pressure loads
I have found a box of Remington Express 2 3/4 in "Power Piston" 1 0z-# 6 shot. The box is probably at least 25 years old ...or older.
I may just use these older lead loaded original shells. These will be for the 1926 Specialty Grade should I use it this year.
About 15 years ago I had the stock checked and reinforced at the action head by an LC Smith stock specialist. He was an excellent stock
man here in Alabama. He also tightened and adjusted a 1916 Fox BE grade forend.
I have an old Stevens 311 .410 sxs that I keep saying i'm going to start toting.