Heres a conversation starter for the group.....What do you guys think of this hunt? We have been awfully critical of THP and Pinhoti on this forum, just wondering where this ranks?
https://youtu.be/eNVlKZ5FRLg
???? to each their own I guess. I personally don't fan birds and if I shoot one I sure don't just sit there and let it get flogged by another bird. Kinda disrespectful imo. Glad the kid got one but I would have done it differently. Again. Just my opinion
Clown activity no matter how you slice it. And a lot of the criticism of the other guys is not necessarily how they hunt, but the costs of their hunting and exposure. A lot of people aren't mad because of what they've shown on camera, it has more to do with the places they pimped out once they were done with them. Cove has a reputation for it
Have a safe 4th July Everyone ... Enjoy your time with family and friends ... Fireworks / Food ..... :smiley-patriotic-flagwaver-an
Fanning isn't my cup of tea and seems to me a good way to get shot or lets agree it raises your chances.
Quote from: Kylongspur88 on July 01, 2023, 10:39:11 AM
???? to each their own I guess. I personally don't fan birds and if I shoot one I sure don't just sit there and let it get flogged by another bird. Kinda disrespectful imo. Glad the kid got one but I would have done it differently. Again. Just my opinion
I have to agree, I don't like to see a bird or any animal for that matter flopping around, ( especially on a video) be respectful and go take care of things properly or don't show it on the video.
Haven't watched it and aint gonna. My life is happier when I ignore most things and concentrate on myself and the things I can control. Do I wish things were different for the turkeys sake? Absolutely. Are people I don't even know worth my attention? Absolutely not.
Quote from: Happy on July 01, 2023, 11:08:33 AM
Haven't watched it and aint gonna. My life is happier when I ignore most things and concentrate on myself. And the things I can control. Do I wish things were different for the turkeys sake? Absolutely. Are people I don't even know worth my attention? Absolutely not.
X2 Happy , i so agree ...
X3 what Happy said.
I've reaped a few and they were great hunts..... that said it's not my preferred method by any means, puts unneeded pressure on birds, especially if you plan on hunting them anytime soon. Definitely gives big advantage if "properly" employed.... just look at Waddell and Culpepper....now to the flopping and flogging comments. That's part of turkey hunting and nature in general..... but to each there own I understand where you guys coming from but have different way of thinking about it. But at the end of the day we all on same team here. happy 4th of July everybody!
For me personally its less about speaking out against fanning because I intend to tell another man what to do, its more about speaking against it because its an extremely dangerous practice that could lead to legislation about turkeys and turkey hunting. If there was a push to ban turkey hunting altogether in your state because of multiple accidents due to reaping, it would be worth your attention then.
Well... The comments were turned off... For a reason.
No doubt that such methods are a "short-cut" to killing a bird. When taking young hunters out, I have encouraged methods of take, that I myself would not do at this point in my life (such as shooting a duck on the water). But... I did not post it on YouTube.
I have played with the method (of reaping) myself for fun (did not have a gun or harvest a bird)... Used a turkey fan to see how close I could get to birds in an open meadow. Put a fan in front of me, leaned over, and walked right up to them. I was two for two on this... Birds held their ground, and let me walk virtually right up to them. One bird approached me as I approached them.
I do think there is a difference between fanning (using a fan to draw in a dominant bird), and reaping (using a fan or fan and decoy to walk up on a bird). My impression is that fanning will draw in that dominant bird, but there are birds that would likely see the fan and go the other direction... I would consider using a tom decoy with a fan in line with fanning.
With my limited experience in these methods... I feel that birds are more likely to hold their ground while reaping, than coming into a fan while fanning... Dominant birds will approach in either situation. Given a voice in the regulations, I would remove both from the hunting methods in my area. Both give an unfair advantage, and I am uncertain what effect removing so many dominant birds would have on the breeding cycle?
As far as watching birds flog a dead bird, I take no issue with it. Bird on the ground is dead... I have let birds flog a shot/dead bird, not to watch it happen, but to avoid educating the birds doing the flogging. Then again (as mentioned above), I did not post it up on YouTube, where I know it will be offensive (to at least some) hunters and non-hunters watching.
Poor parenting choice? The guy can call and obviously hunting a property with turkeys, so not sure why he needs a prop, such as a reaping set up. It's killing, not hunting, and maybe he's ok with taking a chance he and his young son get shot in the face. The YouTubers exploiting and promoting public land is a different subject, though worthy of criticism as well.
Quote from: Greg Massey on July 01, 2023, 11:10:38 AM
Quote from: Happy on July 01, 2023, 11:08:33 AM
Haven't watched it and aint gonna. My life is happier when I ignore most things and concentrate on myself. And the things I can control. Do I wish things were different for the turkeys sake? Absolutely. Are people I don't even know worth my attention? Absolutely not.
X2 Happy , i so agree ...
While I understand this side of the coin and would prefer to ignore some things, that isn't the reality of being a good steward of hunting. If we all took this stance, we wouldn't have limits, states would still allow rifles, and in all honesty, we probably wouldn't have a turkey to hunt.
The difference with me is that I simply write/email my representatives and voice my concerns. After that, the monkey is on their back. I express my thoughts online to get a better understanding of the other side of all topics and make informed decisions off of the collection of others experience and knowledge of topics.
Just sitting back out of convenience should never be an option...but anger won't do anything either. We all need to find that middle ground and make good decisions for the animals sake.
"Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before the fall."
It is not turkey hunting, rather it is merely turkey killing, and there is a huge difference.
"Live artfully". Ken Morgan from "America, Wild Turkeys & Mongrel Dogs."
Quote from: Spurs on July 01, 2023, 12:37:12 PM
Quote from: Greg Massey on July 01, 2023, 11:10:38 AM
Quote from: Happy on July 01, 2023, 11:08:33 AM
Haven't watched it and aint gonna. My life is happier when I ignore most things and concentrate on myself. And the things I can control. Do I wish things were different for the turkeys sake? Absolutely. Are people I don't even know worth my attention? Absolutely not.
X2 Happy , i so agree ...
While I understand this side of the coin and would prefer to ignore some things, that isn't the reality of being a good steward of hunting. If we all took this stance, we wouldn't have limits, states would still allow rifles, and in all honesty, we probably wouldn't have a turkey to hunt.
The difference with me is that I simply write/email my representatives and voice my concerns. After that, the monkey is on their back. I express my thoughts online to get a better understanding of the other side of all topics and make informed decisions off of the collection of others experience and knowledge of topics.
Just sitting back out of convenience should never be an option...but anger won't do anything either. We all need to find that middle ground and make good decisions for the animals sake.
I get it, sir, and I do the same. My point is merely in response to YouTube hunting. I am not giving anyone another "view" to feed their egos, and nothing I say would be taken seriously. It's gonna get worse before it gets better, I am afraid. Every year, I write letters to our wildlife officials requesting changes.
Haven't watched but I seen that crew on Facebook an awfully lot and they kill a lot of turkeys. Reaping's not for me.
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Fanning or reaping whatever they call it is definitely not for me ! I can't even watch the hunting videos when they do it . Seems like a short cut just to fill a tag !
I tried to watch it but I saw they were sponsored by Mossberg. Tells me all I need to know.
I did not watch it and I will not. Every click legitimizes these guys. Look at youtube and all the outlandish video titles, it not called click bait for nothing. Even if you back out 1 second later they get the hit and hits mean money in the end. In my opinion they have taken it beyond educational and entertaining, they are now prostituting the sport. These kill-for-joy of killing hunt videos are not characteristic of sportsmen/women and I believe are more built on pride and self-adoration.
My apologies if I wrongly categorized anyone, but I can only judge visually and rudimentally from a computer logged into the internet. However, I have known some of the early video tape guys from before youtube and about half them were self serving tools, the main thing that has changed is the platform, people are still being people.
In my old age I still go to the woods with a couple mouth calls one pot call and 5-7 shells and call my birds into my guns affective range. No blinds, no decoys, no fans. That's the way I like it and I respect those who like to do it other ways. Legal and safe is all I ask of everyone around me. That does not mean I approve of everyone's methods, but it means my opinion really doesn't matter as long as they abide by these two rules. To worry about what someone else is doing beyond that is only letting them steal my peace. Now if it's harmful or unsafe then it's time to lobby for change. I accept that is the intent of this discussion, but please don't feed the beast by clicking on their video.
The key point ignoring the debate over fanning or reaping is that this man put himself and this kid potentially in mortal danger or at risk of being blinded and disfigured.
Looking at that video, you can see and hear vehicles cruising by just a few hundred yards away. Obviously the adult has discounted the possibility of a poacher being present. I wonder what could have possibly gone wrong if a poacher heard the gobbling and came up on a "strutter."
This is why this practice may have to be outlawed to protect idiots from themselves and harming others.
Putting a young man , or anyone behind a fan for that matter is just poor judgement imo .
But hey , who am I to judge anyone... they jus tryin to get them Facebook likes !!
I fall into the I'm not watching crowd. If it's about reaping its not something I'm interested in.
Quote from: Zobo on July 02, 2023, 10:26:18 AM
I fall into the I'm not watching crowd. If it's about reaping its not something I'm interested in.
I'm with you and other like-minded individuals.
If I, personally, had to resort to such "tactics" to kill a gobbler, I'd quit first.
Really nice to see the responses here on this subject. Hopefully soon the days of "you're just an elitist trying to tell somebody else how to hunt" and "as long as its legal its OK with me" are soon coming to an end. Its as absurd as putting your son in an 8pt buck suit in November and letting him walk around the WMA, to make excuses for it is worse than a lack of sportsmanship, it's an ignorant endorsement for whats inherently dangerous and could likely lead to an end of the sport altogether.
Certainly the concerns you guys bring up about fanning/reaping are quite valid. However, on any turkey hunting tactic my take is if it's legal, and you want to use it, then go for it and best of luck to you. Especially for a youth hunt, they need every advantage they can get.
Not saying that I would condone the tactic or would use it myself, but if it's legal, I'm not going to criticize you for doing it.
Sometimes us hunters are our own worst enemies.
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Don't really care if a grown human gets just themselves hurt voluntarily...
Just not sure a kid can appreciate the danger...
Hope no kids or their friends are influenced by this until they are old enough to make their own decisions, some of which might be fatal...
Some very negligent turkey hunting related shooting this past season including a fine young kid who shot himself in the head...
Reaping or fanning isn't for me, I won't hunt that way or teach it. I won't preach , if it's legal you need to think it through for yourself. Just do that, think about all the possible outcomes. Anything that ups the chances of someone getting shot won't be for me . :blob10 :z-twocents: z
One of our forum members hunting buddy got hammered with TSS this season. For privacy reasons, I can't say who. But the moral of this story is the guy shot at him because he saw movement. Do you think a real turkey fan just might be a more realistic target for someone as dangerous as this guy? Food for thought here. Be safe......
We're taught in hunter safety at age 11 or 12 not to wear or carry ANYTHING red, white or blue on a turkey hunt because it COULD be mistaken by another hunter as a turkey's head.
But crawl around holding a turkey fan or very realistic facsimile of one is A-OK ??
:z-dizzy:
Good point Yoder. Everyone involved in a hunting accident looses . So does family and friends . The older I get, the more paranoid I have become . I think because I have seen or heard about so many accidents , not just hunting , how quickly and easy they happen and the destruction left behind . Safety first . Then have fun .
I want one for photography but would never use one during the season, I am messed up enough without getting shot.
Then the kid runs off to school and tells their buddies how cool it was fanning a tom in...Ethics aside, how can you NOT see the issue with this?
Quote from: Yoder409 on July 02, 2023, 08:27:05 PM
We're taught in hunter safety at age 11 or 12 not to wear or carry ANYTHING red, white or blue on a turkey hunt because it COULD be mistaken by another hunter as a turkey's head.
But crawl around holding a turkey fan or very realistic facsimile of one is A-OK ??
:z-dizzy:
Exactly
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Quote from: Yoder409 on July 02, 2023, 08:27:05 PM
We're taught in hunter safety at age 11 or 12 not to wear or carry ANYTHING red, white or blue on a turkey hunt because it COULD be mistaken by another hunter as a turkey's head.
But crawl around holding a turkey fan or very realistic facsimile of one is A-OK ??
:z-dizzy:
This point alone should be a reason for it to be illegal. A state required safety course, and this method totally contradicts that. It makes no sense.
Quote from: RutnNStrutn on July 02, 2023, 01:57:09 PM
Certainly the concerns you guys bring up about fanning/reaping are quite valid. However, on any turkey hunting tactic my take is if it's legal, and you want to use it, then go for it and best of luck to you. Especially for a youth hunt, they need every advantage they can get.
Not saying that I would condone the tactic or would use it myself, but if it's legal, I'm not going to criticize you for doing it.
Sometimes us hunters are our own worst enemies.
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There is a fine line between criticizing and being critical. Some choose to cast stones, which is no way to conduct one's self. I try to be critical when looking at a style of hunting that is new/different from my own.
I fell into the full strut decoy phase when the B-Mobile first came out, so I understand that side of wanting to follow a style of hunting that is 'As seen on TV'. Once I finally got away from decoys all together (only took a couple of years and I got tired of carrying those things around), I started to rethink the entire idea of decoy use.
If we cannot have a civil debate on a subject, then nothing will change. Decoys are one of those things that needs to change IMO.
It looks like fun, but it also looks like it would be rough on my knees.
I had an adult & child "Reaping & Gobbling" with fans, closing in on me while I was hen yelping on public land. They came up over a little ridge about 35 yards away and I quickly noticed the "turkeys" fans were 5' off the ground so I yelled at them immediately. It was a dangerous situation and they were moving through some brush so it took me a minute to figure out what was going on. I did approach them afterward where the adult apologized and agreed that it was a really stupid thing to do.
Quote from: Tom007 on July 02, 2023, 07:13:31 PM
One of our forum members hunting buddy got hammered with TSS this season. For privacy reasons, I can't say who. But the moral of this story is the guy shot at him because he saw movement. Do you think a real turkey fan just might be a more realistic target for someone as dangerous as this guy? Food for thought here. Be safe......
So this is a topic my buddies and I have been discussing. Turkey shells have become more deadly to not only turkeys but people over the past decade. I remember when I started turkey hunting in the 90s and the gold box federals we bought at Walmart were awesome shells. The red hull xx winchesters too. Now a fella might catch a face full of tss that would put either of those to shame. It's a totally different game now. Are we going to see shot restrictions in some states for safety reasons?? Idk, but it does add to the overall discussion about reaping and hunter safety.
Never tried reaping. I may try it someday, but then my old knees aren't fond of crawling much anymore so maybe not. Generally speaking, it can be a real safety concern, if you decide to do it, and it's legal, pick your spots carefully.
Kylongspur88, you have pointed a major reason why I don't use TSS. One is responsible for the effects of every pellet fired from his shotgun and I choose not to be forced to justify should one of those pellets harm a human at short or extreme range. A good caller and lead shot performs very well at 35 yards and that is good enough for me.
You are spot on silvestris. I see no need for any longer range shell in my vest at all. I have consistently killed my turkeys with the same old shells for several decades now. I have even killed some with a field load I'd use for pheasants from an IC or mod choke. Put them in range for your gear and all shells will do the job. It is our own lack of confidence and ego that makes us look for ways to extend our effective range. My first 20 years of turkey hunting all these new shells weren't even available. You put a gobbler at 25-30 yards or you didn't shoot. I watched many walk away that would be dead today. I think the new loads do reduce crippling, but that's still because most of us are prone to taking borderline shots...myself included over the years. I am not finding fault with anyone using tss, I am advocating knowing your effective range. If you do this TSS is an expense and risk you don't need to endure.
Quote from: Spurs on July 03, 2023, 11:37:31 AM
There is a fine line between criticizing and being critical. Some choose to cast stones, which is no way to conduct one's self. I try to be critical when looking at a style of hunting that is new/different from my own.
I fell into the full strut decoy phase when the B-Mobile first came out, so I understand that side of wanting to follow a style of hunting that is 'As seen on TV'. Once I finally got away from decoys all together (only took a couple of years and I got tired of carrying those things around), I started to rethink the entire idea of decoy use.
If we cannot have a civil debate on a subject, then nothing will change. Decoys are one of those things that needs to change IMO.
Good post... I disagree with part of it... But well said.
While I do agree with the need for civil (and rational) discussion... I am not in the camp of "if it is legal it is OK." I do believe that hunters should be the foremost stewards of the game we harvest. I believe that it should be obligation of hunters to sometimes be both critical, and to openly criticize means and methods that are either unethical or unsafe (or as in this case both).
My first impression of seeing "reaping" videos, was that it appears both dangerous an unethical... My experimentation with a turkey fan gave me a much stronger impression of that same sentiment. I feel, that if I can spot a turkey, that using a fan, I have a much higher percentage chance of killing that bird utilizing a fan, and simply walking up to him, than I do attempting to call him in... I feel that the scales are tipped too far in the direction of the "hunter," to still be considered "fair chase."
I also feel that marketing and money (license sales) is too often prioritized over the best interests of both the game we hunt and the hunters themselves.
TV and YouTube and the like, all too often prioritize "the kill" instead of "the hunt." And many young people entering the outdoors are taking their queue from from these shows that often display what many (if not most) traditional hunters would consider to be "unethical."
Quote from: Marc on July 01, 2023, 12:07:05 PM
Well... The comments were turned off... For a reason.
No doubt that such methods are a "short-cut" to killing a bird. When taking young hunters out, I have encouraged methods of take, that I myself would not do at this point in my life (such as shooting a duck on the water). But... I did not post it on YouTube.
I have played with the method (of reaping) myself for fun (did not have a gun or harvest a bird)... Used a turkey fan to see how close I could get to birds in an open meadow. Put a fan in front of me, leaned over, and walked right up to them. I was two for two on this... Birds held their ground, and let me walk virtually right up to them. One bird approached me as I approached them.
I do think there is a difference between fanning (using a fan to draw in a dominant bird), and reaping (using a fan or fan and decoy to walk up on a bird). My impression is that fanning will draw in that dominant bird, but there are birds that would likely see the fan and go the other direction... I would consider using a tom decoy with a fan in line with fanning.
With my limited experience in these methods... I feel that birds are more likely to hold their ground while reaping, than coming into a fan while fanning... Dominant birds will approach in either situation. Given a voice in the regulations, I would remove both from the hunting methods in my area. Both give an unfair advantage, and I am uncertain what effect removing so many dominant birds would have on the breeding cycle?
As far as watching birds flog a dead bird, I take no issue with it. Bird on the ground is dead... I have let birds flog a shot/dead bird, not to watch it happen, but to avoid educating the birds doing the flogging. Then again (as mentioned above), I did not post it up on YouTube, where I know it will be offensive (to at least some) hunters and non-hunters watching.
Thoughtful and spot on...
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Quote from: Yoder409 on July 02, 2023, 08:27:05 PM
We're taught in hunter safety at age 11 or 12 not to wear or carry ANYTHING red, white or blue on a turkey hunt because it COULD be mistaken by another hunter as a turkey's head.
But crawl around holding a turkey fan or very realistic facsimile of one is A-OK ??
:z-dizzy:
Well, there's a point!
I've carried a gobbler tail on a stake, to use as a decoy in a field years ago and it worked. Of course I could see in all directions that could pose a danger and I was on private ground.
Fanning, or reaping isn't for me. Same with blinds. Seems like an unfair advantage. I'm even on the fence about decoys although I DO use one in the Spring (love to see the interactions).
As far as the safety aspects of fanning? NOT willing to take that chance! AND, as I said, unfair (my opinion).
All this said, I'm libertarian leaning so if somebody wants to do it, I won't try to stop them...
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In my opinion, if you use decoys, especially a male decoy, you may as well go ahead and fan the turkey. Popping a fan at one is deadly but so are decoys... One is no better than the other because there's a big disadvantage to the bird. Now that tss is out and people can kill them at ranges they shouldn't, there's another disadvantage. Not to mention cell cameras that let hunters know when the birds are there...Turkeys don't have much of a chance with the direction things have gone.
Well said WW
Don't agree. Too much whining about decoys and this tactic and that tactic.. The good old days are gone. They won't be back. Shorter seasons and reduced limits are the only logical solution if a solution is really needed.Way too many crying that their limit has been reduced from 3 to 2 or 2 to 1 Live with it . Take up golf :TrainWreck1:
I still get aggravated when regulations are driven by social pressure and not science. I do respectively disagree that reduced limits and shorter seasons are the only solution. However, the science needs to answer that not opinions.
I will never take up golf, but after 50+ years where i never imagined my life without turkey hunting I can now see myself just slowly leaving the sport behind. I think I could actually quit and it has nothing to do with declining turkey flocks and everything to do with people. I used to be an avid pheasnt and grouse hunter and I quit that part of hunting several years ago because of the lack of quality opportunity. I think we are in an irreversable decline as a sport and future generations will only see themselves socially and economical excluded or at least limited from hunting. It is a dangerous philosphy to demand more regulation, even though there may be some validity to it.
Quote from: eggshell on July 07, 2023, 07:09:11 AMI think we are in an irreversible decline as a sport ...........
I believe, 100%, that you are right.
Quote from: Yoder409 on July 07, 2023, 08:58:26 AM
Quote from: eggshell on July 07, 2023, 07:09:11 AMI think we are in an irreversible decline as a sport ...........
I believe, 100%, that you are right.
X2
Regarding the original point of the discussion,...that is, the safety issue at question in the use of fans in the manner exhibited in the video,...one might initially think that a statistical analysis of turkey hunting accidents would show a definite correlation between the apparent increasing use of fanning and a corresponding increase in turkey hunting accidents. To my knowledge, no such correlation exists,...and fanning has been around long enough now and is used (apparently) by enough turkey hunters that any such correlation would be pretty clear by now.
The fact is that, on its surface, fanning just SEEMS to be dangerous,...and for pretty obvious reasons. So why, with the increasing use of fanning as a hunting tactic, is there little evidence that it is any more dangerous than say, careless use of firearms, or someone getting shot by someone shooting at a decoy, or even someone sitting against a tree and calling? Personally, I think there are two reasons.
First, MOST turkey hunters are conscientious about target identification. That is, most of us are capable of looking at a turkey fan and differentiating between a real, live gobbler and one with one or more human beings sneaking behind that fan, or even a full-body strutting gobbler decoy. Secondly, I think MOST hunters that utilize these tactics understand that they are using a tool that could possibly put themselves in a dangerous situation and are generally quite conscious of that fact,...and as a result, only employ it with utmost caution and in circumstances where they most likely feel confident there are no safety issues involved (which I suspect was likely the case in the video in question).
Having stated all of the above, there have been,...and will probably continue to be (unless the use of all decoys is made illegal) cases of careless hunters that are using a fan being shot by other careless hunters that have not properly identified the target. That combination of the two is what might get someone shot. However, that same combination is what gets hunters shot that are turkey calling, sitting a few yards from a turkey decoy, or carelessly handling a firearm, all of which,...again, to my knowledge,...have equal or higher accident rates than any associated with someone displaying a turkey fan on their person.
Now, don't get me wrong. I would be "tickled pink" if the use of visual aids across the spectrum were made illegal in hunting turkeys. I totally agree that our turkey populations have taken a serious hit in many places due solely to the use of, and reliance on, these visual aids in hunting them. The resource is being jeopardized by the fact that there are increasingly more turkey hunters,...and those hunters are increasingly using these tactics that make turkeys more susceptible to being killed.
If visual aids need to be made illegal, THAT is the reason why. Relying on proclamations of safety issues when those issues cannot be truly supported by statistics is just a "red herring" argument. :icon_thumright:
Whew! I guess I've chased them for 50+ years also. I live in a state that has two zones so I can conceivably hunt for around two months in the spring and take two gobblers. If things would change to a time the season would be one month with a one bird limit would I quit? Of course not . I'd be a little more selective and if tagged out load up the tent and travel to become a pesky non resident somewhere else. If legal my old buddy Funky Chicken would be in tow.
This has become the most doom and gloom bunch I've ever experienced. A shame really. Even during this tragic turkey downturn I, at 75, in 2022 managed to take a Fl land public bird, a FL private land bird and topped the year off with a WY Merriam. Health issues this spring limited my time but one Osceola still went into the oven. Maybe hunting more and whining less would be a good thought.
Gobblenut, That is exactly what I meant by science based regulations made on facts, not feelings. I do not employ fans or decoys, but I do accept the use of them by others, as a legal tool. Again this is a choice and opinion and made within the bounds of a free society and in no way meant to criticize anyone.
You are also correct that data does not support the use of fans as any more dangerous than just going hunting. Actually, I think calling is probably more of a proven risk. Carelessness is the leading cause of accidents and I am living proof of that!
My opinion and solely an opinion is that decoys and visual aides do in fact make hunters more successful. For the hunter with limited time and space this is a huge asset. The prying question is; does the data indicate it is detrimental to the flock as a whole. My presumption is yes, but with no data to support that it is just that a presumption and opinion, so I support the legal use of them until agencies define they are contributing to flock decline.
I kept track of kills among local hunters in my area this year and asked how many used decoys. I was shocked to know out of all the kills the first week of season (for those I asked) every single bird was killed using a decoy. Specifically gobbler decoys were successful 3-1 over hen decoys. I had multiple gobblers stand their ground and just look my direction for a hen then finally move off with the real thing. I imagine a strutter decoy would have sealed the deal on at least one. I still tagged my one gobbler later in season in my preferred way, so good for me and good for all the others. We were all happy with our seasons. I got several more hunts in having limited success early.
Quote from: joey46 on July 07, 2023, 10:49:33 AM
Whew! I guess I've chased them for 50+ years also. I live in a state that has two zones so I can conceivably hunt for around two months in the spring and take two gobblers. If things would change to a time the season would be one month with a one bird limit would I quit? Of course not . I'd be a little more selective and if tagged out load up the tent and travel to become a pesky non resident somewhere else. If legal my old buddy Funky Chicken would be in tow.
This has become the most doom and gloom bunch I've ever experienced. A shame really. Even during this tragic turkey downturn I, at 75, in 2022 managed to take a Fl land public bird, a FL private land bird and topped the year off with a WY Merriam. Health issues this spring limited my time but one Osceola still went into the oven. Maybe hunting more and whining less would be a good thought.
The problem is if anyone voices concerns over methods, tools, or social media practices that could be considered damaging for turkey populations, turkey hunting opportunities, and the future of turkey hunting, he or she is labeled as an anti-hunter, whiner, elitist....the list goes on. It's usually that with very little substance to support the opinion. And that's the real shame.
Quote from: El Pavo Grande on July 07, 2023, 09:26:18 PM
Quote from: joey46 on July 07, 2023, 10:49:33 AM
Whew! I guess I've chased them for 50+ years also. I live in a state that has two zones so I can conceivably hunt for around two months in the spring and take two gobblers. If things would change to a time the season would be one month with a one bird limit would I quit? Of course not . I'd be a little more selective and if tagged out load up the tent and travel to become a pesky non resident somewhere else. If legal my old buddy Funky Chicken would be in tow.
This has become the most doom and gloom bunch I've ever experienced. A shame really. Even during this tragic turkey downturn I, at 75, in 2022 managed to take a Fl land public bird, a FL private land bird and topped the year off with a WY Merriam. Health issues this spring limited my time but one Osceola still went into the oven. Maybe hunting more and whining less would be a good thought.
The problem is if anyone voices concerns over methods, tools, or social media practices that could be considered damaging for turkey populations, turkey hunting opportunities, and the future of turkey hunting, he or she is labeled as an anti-hunter, whiner, elitist....the list goes on. It's usually that with very little substance to support the opinion. And that's the real shame.
:icon_thumright:, page 20 and 21 of Old Pro Turkey Hunter,
I wonder if Old Gene would of been called a whiner
Don't know who "Old Gene" is so your reference means nothing to me but I'll bet old Gene would have adapted with the times.
It appears nothing aggravates a whiner more than being called a whiner.
This forum has many subsections. It should consider adding:
We Hate Decoys (the sight of a male decoy causes blood pressure spikes)
Ban Nonresidents or at least price them out
Ban Social Media (especially THP - the scumbag)
Ban OnX (no GPS either - the more guys stumbling around in the dark the better)
Ban Trail Cams.
Don't even get me started on cell phones.
etc, etc. As long as it contains the word "ban" we're good with it
You guys keep this up you'll be hunting in blaze orange with airguns, won't be allowed to start before 9am and will have to quit at 11. I almost hope to live to see it. Future generations will title it the:
WHINER REBELLION
Well it's 6am. Time to get up, walk my 2 miles before it gets too hot and enjoy the day. My knees will hurt but I'll try not to whine about it. Lol.
That would be Gene Nunnery, author of "Old Pro Turkey Hunter"
Great book, one of my favorites
Thanks - I'll look for it. I used Hunting the American Wild Turkey by Dave Harbour as my early bible. Especially liked the chapter where he bumped into a young Harold Knight in Land Between the Lakes KY. Harold was developing his tube call.
If there is a point to all this it is ADAPT OR QUIT. You aren't going to legislate a solution to your perceived crisis. I hunted the big birds when the population was building. The limit was one and the season was short. I hunted them through the glory years. I guess I'm wrapping things up during a down period. If I have to go to a shorter season and reduced limits I'll live with it but won't whine about it or suggest solutions that are no more than "let's just do something".
Quote from: joey46 on July 08, 2023, 09:39:20 AM
Thanks - I'll look for it. I used Hunting the American Wild Turkey by Dave Harbour as my early bible. Especially liked the chapter where he bumped into a young Harold Knight in Land Between the Lakes KY. Harold was developing his tube call.
If there is a point to all this it is ADAPT OR QUIT. You aren't going to legislate a solution to your perceived crisis. I hunted the big birds when the population was building. The limit was one and the season was short. I hunted them through the glory years. I guess I'm wrapping things up during a down period. If I have to go to a shorter season and reduced limits I'll live with it but won't whine about it or suggest solutions that are no more than "let's just do something".
"Adapt or Quit".... maybe I misinterpret your comments, but I'll agree to disagree with just adapting and sticking our head in the sand. Label those that speak out as "whiners" if you want, but keep in mind what we are ADAPTING too. What you may miss is that many wish to avoid legislation, avoid loss of opportunity, and protect the resource. Before you get on a high horse of hunt harder, adapt, and "turkey hunting isn't easy so work harder".... It's not about that. You aren't the only one who has hunted a number of years, through good and bad times. In fact it isn't consistently easy, nor should it be. I would think an "invested" turkey hunter of 50 years would take pause at reaping, technology employed, loads that shoot to 80-90 yards, etc. There is only so much we can adapt. The wild turkey can only adapt and survive so much, when you couple the above with loss off available habitat. I guess when we start turkey hunting with drones, we should just adapt and accept it? We are going adapt our way right out of turkey hunting with that attitude.
I don't care if one day we go to a 1 limit everywhere, ban decoys, ban social media, and only allow traditional archery..... it's about the hunt and not #s, and those that truly love it would still participate despite the challenge.
Quote from: El Pavo Grande on July 08, 2023, 01:05:54 PM
Quote from: joey46 on July 08, 2023, 09:39:20 AM
Thanks - I'll look for it. I used Hunting the American Wild Turkey by Dave Harbour as my early bible. Especially liked the chapter where he bumped into a young Harold Knight in Land Between the Lakes KY. Harold was developing his tube call.
If there is a point to all this it is ADAPT OR QUIT. You aren't going to legislate a solution to your perceived crisis. I hunted the big birds when the population was building. The limit was one and the season was short. I hunted them through the glory years. I guess I'm wrapping things up during a down period. If I have to go to a shorter season and reduced limits I'll live with it but won't whine about it or suggest solutions that are no more than "let's just do something".
"Adapt or Quit".... maybe I misinterpret your comments, but I'll agree to disagree with just adapting and sticking our head in the sand. Label those that speak out as "whiners" if you want, but keep in mind what we are ADAPTING too. What you may miss is that many wish to avoid legislation, avoid loss of opportunity, and protect the resource. Before you get on a high horse of hunt harder, adapt, and "turkey hunting isn't easy so work harder".... It's not about that. You aren't the only one who has hunted a number of years, through good and bad times. In fact it isn't consistently easy, nor should it be. I would think an "invested" turkey hunter of 50 years would take pause at reaping, technology employed, loads that shoot to 80-90 yards, etc. There is only so much we can adapt. The wild turkey can only adapt and survive so much, when you couple the above with loss off available habitat. I guess when we start turkey hunting with drones, we should just adapt and accept it? We are going adapt our way right out of turkey hunting with that attitude.
I don't care if one day we go to a 1 limit everywhere, ban decoys, ban social media, and only allow traditional archery..... it's about the hunt and not #s, and those that truly love it would still participate despite the challenge.
Winner winner :z-winnersmiley:
Only took 4 pages to get a great response!!
I've killed a lot of gobblers between 9 and 11 just saying ... I've hunted the days of old and now the days of new technology and while i do appreciate both, i still enjoy some of the new technology better .... I still hunt ever so often with one of my old non-choke turkey guns and wear the old woodland camo etc... but seeing that old brass bead is getting pretty hard to see in my golden years.
Funny "traditional archery" was mentioned. I grew up and hunted in Ohio since probably 1960 (started with squirrel). I experienced the deer boom that started about 1970. I watched these same type of arguments about the effects of technology arise during the early bow seasons . First it was "oh my god it's a compound bow". Then it was "oh my god it's a mechanical release". Of course the number one thing that would doom the sport was the crossbow . Tool of the devil it was described in ancient text. For unknown reasons even with crossbows, improved deer stands, scents, etc there is still a deer in Ohio. Yes I know a deer isn't a turkey but the panic over technology seems very similar. And yes many of you ARE attempting to legislate knee jerk regulations you'll never reverse once implemented .
Quote from: Greg Massey on July 08, 2023, 01:46:58 PM
I've killed a lot of gobblers between 9 and 11 just saying ...
[/quote
And that would allow for a leisurely breakfast at Waffle House or a late lunch at Burger King. That 9 to 11 may just work out.
Quote from: Greg Massey on July 08, 2023, 01:46:58 PM
I've killed a lot of gobblers between 9 and 11 just saying ...
Your thinking of a 7-11, and running them over in the road if front of a store on the edge of town doesn't count
Quote from: crow on July 08, 2023, 01:55:33 PM
Quote from: Greg Massey on July 08, 2023, 01:46:58 PM
I've killed a lot of gobblers between 9 and 11 just saying ...
Your thinking of a 7-11, and running them over in the road if front of a store on the edge of town doesn't count
Crow , these kids only think you can kill a turkey from breaking daylight until 7 am. in the morning ... :TooFunny:
:TooFunny:
9am to noon can be deadly
Quote from: Greg Massey on July 08, 2023, 02:00:39 PM
Quote from: crow on July 08, 2023, 01:55:33 PM
Quote from: Greg Massey on July 08, 2023, 01:46:58 PM
I've killed a lot of gobblers between 9 and 11 just saying ...
Your thinking of a 7-11, and running them over in the road if front of a store on the edge of town doesn't count
Crow , these kids only think you can kill a turkey from breaking daylight until 7 am. in the morning ... :TooFunny:
Daylight to 7 is the best time for gobbling. Gotta know where there at if you gonna Pearl Harbor, reap, and turkey drive them in the timber.
Quote from: Paulmyr on July 08, 2023, 02:09:43 PM
Quote from: Greg Massey on July 08, 2023, 02:00:39 PM
Quote from: crow on July 08, 2023, 01:55:33 PM
Quote from: Greg Massey on July 08, 2023, 01:46:58 PM
I've killed a lot of gobblers between 9 and 11 just saying ...
Your thinking of a 7-11, and running them over in the road if front of a store on the edge of town doesn't count
Crow , these kids only think you can kill a turkey from breaking daylight until 7 am. in the morning ... :TooFunny:
Daylight to 7 is the best time for gobbling. Gotta know where there at if you gonna Pearl Harbor, reap, and turkey drive them in the timber.
X2 :TooFunny:
I got my first turkey permit in 1970 or 71 (too dang long ago to remember for sure) and the season was 3 days long daylight till noon. If you found one gobbling bird you were in high cotton. I think Ohio had 40 some gobblers killed that year and I called in my very first one but never fired a shot because all I could see was his head and since it was my first dance I didn't know whether to kiss the lady or bow before her. well I chose the latter and he/she left. What did happen was it infected me with a disease that at times nearly wrecked my life, from being late to work to ignoring my family. I don't know if my daughter ever truly got over that dad was always gone on her birthday, choosing to hunt a damn bird instead of be with her! I saw the boom of new hunters and the boom of flocks as they saturated new ground. I saw days my buddies and I could simply move from bird to bird and kill a seasons limit in two days. I saw birds expand into places that tradition said they would never thrive. I saw hunters gather to support a resource through new organizations and then fall to the devil's trap of pleasure and money in the name of our noble bird. I was the very first in a wide region to use a mouth call and embrace new technology. My love drove me to a degree in wildlife management and a career in fisheries. I worked privately securing and enhancing thousands of acres of land to provide for wildlife. I grew up farming and my dad always left some for the wildlife. I am proud to say he was recognized with a state award as an early conservationist. My ancestors established an early tree farm that still exist 100+ years later and is still managed well. In all those days I knew poachers and noble sportsmen/women, but over overwhelmingly the noble sportsmen prevailed. They are the champions that built this great pursuit of ours and it is there legacy. Fair chase was meeting the game on it's ground and it's terms and when you harvested enough to feed your family you quit. I am not saying there was not slobs, there were. The community knew who they were and they were not welcome on most farms. All these old mentors and heroes of mine would be appalled at the many methods that are being employed now and the kill at all cost approach we see today. I watched one day, as a young man, one of our guest caught one of these poachers on our land and he promptly took the man's gun from him, unloaded it and demanded all his remaining shells, handed the gun back to him and told him to run to his truck before he got his kicked very severely. The poacher complied and he later received a visit from the game warden. Poor behavior was not accepted as each can do as they want, there were standards. Again I'm sure you can sight many exceptions, but I believe most followed a higher moral ground.
Here is where I ask, why should I accept poor behavior now, especially if it harms the sport and resource. Why does speaking out make us whiners? I realize we just get tired of the drama and simply want to hunt, but sometimes we must do more. I spent a lifetime trying to make this a better outdoor world, working on endangered species and sport fish alike and do not like what I see. So I will whine until I die. Please don't take offense I am just adding to the conversation.
Terrific reply. Now define today's "poor behavior".One man's opinion may differ from yours or mine. I'm happy if the hunters on the lands I access follow the laws and limits. If they use a decoy or shoot a Jake (perfectly legal here)good for them. If they use TSS and hunt from a blind good for them. I won't try to legislate their morality or ethics if they are hunting legally. You are experienced/educated enough to know shorter seasons and reduced limits are in the cards. Maybe even a return to quotas. This will be the result of human over population and loss of habitat and not someone's use of a decoy or watching THP smoking a cigar. Everytime someone throws the "what about drones" (not you) into these discussions I know they're out of ammo. No I wouldn't support the use of drones. Would even frown on satellite guided cruise missiles.
At some point these discussions enter the :deadhorse: category. I'll drop out for now. Someone else gets the last word award. Please no whining.
Quote from: crow on July 07, 2023, 10:33:35 PM
Quote from: El Pavo Grande on July 07, 2023, 09:26:18 PM
Quote from: joey46 on July 07, 2023, 10:49:33 AM
Whew! I guess I've chased them for 50+ years also. I live in a state that has two zones so I can conceivably hunt for around two months in the spring and take two gobblers. If things would change to a time the season would be one month with a one bird limit would I quit? Of course not . I'd be a little more selective and if tagged out load up the tent and travel to become a pesky non resident somewhere else. If legal my old buddy Funky Chicken would be in tow.
This has become the most doom and gloom bunch I've ever experienced. A shame really. Even during this tragic turkey downturn I, at 75, in 2022 managed to take a Fl land public bird, a FL private land bird and topped the year off with a WY Merriam. Health issues this spring limited my time but one Osceola still went into the oven. Maybe hunting more and whining less would be a good thought.
The problem is if anyone voices concerns over methods, tools, or social media practices that could be considered damaging for turkey populations, turkey hunting opportunities, and the future of turkey hunting, he or she is labeled as an anti-hunter, whiner, elitist....the list goes on. It's usually that with very little substance to support the opinion. And that's the real shame.
:icon_thumright:, page 20 and 21 of Old Pro Turkey Hunter,
I wonder if Old Gene would of been called a whiner
pages 20-21 are good but what I was thinking of is the last paragraph of pg 44 and page 45.
Keep in mind this was written 43-44 years ago and it's gotten a lot easier for people that want it easy.
To me its no different than choosing to shoot one out of the roost where legal. I don't look down on how others choose to kill thier birds. Most of us have our own set of ethics that usually supersede the laws. The only problem i have is when people poach and try and say they killed them legally.
Quote from: joey46 on July 08, 2023, 03:27:55 PM
Terrific reply. Now define today's "poor behavior".One man's opinion may differ from yours or mine. I'm happy if the hunters on the lands I access follow the laws and limits. If they use a decoy or shoot a Jake (perfectly legal here)good for them. If they use TSS and hunt from a blind good for them. I won't try to legislate their morality or ethics if they are hunting legally. You are experienced/educated enough to know shorter seasons and reduced limits are in the cards. Maybe even a return to quotas. This will be the result of human over population and loss of habitat and not someone's use of a decoy or watching THP smoking a cigar. Everytime someone throws the "what about drones" (not you) into these discussions I know they're out of ammo. No I wouldn't support the use of drones. Would even frown on satellite guided cruise missiles.
At some point these discussions enter the :deadhorse: category. I'll drop out for now. Someone else gets the last word award. Please no whining.
But you clearly stated, ADAPT OR QUIT. I don't think you can have it both ways. I mentioned drones because yes, by your logic, we should just accept it and move on, or throw in the towel. It's tongue in check now, but left unchecked and there will be drone hunting, because it's legal and because it's entertaining, and because someone will market it. Currently remote control decoys are legal in some states. You can literally roll a decoy out on a remote control car and roll it back in with gobblers on tow. I'm not adapting to that regardless of "if it's legal" and I'm not going to quit. There comes a point to be either on the right side or wrong side of history. I think we are there right now with turkey hunting. And I have plenty of ammo for a discussion, at least much better than "quit whining" at least.
A man was shot last year deploying a decoy. He was shot in the chest from 30 yards with a .243. Yes, he died.
The person that shot him was convicted of a misdemeanor. Illegal hunting. Since the shooter had permission to be on the ground, "I assume" he pulled the trigger before legal shooting time. This would be the Illegal hunting charge, Misdemeanor.
Lots to this story, but only hearsay. This was not the first time these two guys had met in the woods and there was a prior issue.
So, if you put a bullet through a decoy is it a crime? What if your holding the decoy and someone puts a bullet through it?
Doesn't really matter to the guy that was holding it...
Maybe I went to far with this example but their are people that are crazy and that will do stupid stuff.
I have been absent, but do check in a few times a week, had to go back and reread some of this thread.
I will put it like this:
If you need or rely upon, a decoy, an electronic caller, a "weapon" that will effectively kill beyond 40 yards you ain't much of a turkey hunter!
You don't need better tools, you need to learn how to turkey hunt.
Not sorry if I offended.
Guess I'm not much of a turkey hunter even though I choose to hunt them with traditional bows.
I'll say this, the amount of self-righteousness that is continually displayed on this forum is quite astounding. If some of you were truly confident in your abilities and achievements, there would be no need to put other hunters down constantly.
Sorry to see Joey go, Sir you did add to the conversation many good and understandable points. We are bound to disagree, but usually somewhere in the middle is a good place to settle in. For the sake of clerification; I agree shorter seasons and lower bag limits are coming, but hopefully not sooner than necessary and by the data; I define bad behavior as shooting more than your limit, crippling birds and not trying to recover them, taking risky shots, not identifying your target, putting others at risk, tresspassing, roost shooting, Setting up to cut off another hunter, driving off road and disrespecting the landowner's property and a few more. You assumed wrong if you though blinds, decoys, shot type or loads or shooting jakes is on my list. I don't use those methods, but I might and I am ok with anyone who uses them. They are legal and as long as they are it's fine with me. Now what I am saying if they ever prove they are cause for decline in the flock, then legality should be addressed. I actually think you and I would get along just fine hunting the same farm.
This is why forums are dangerous, there ends up being way to much speculation and misunderstanding. It's so hard to express completely and accurately simple toughts. I don't think it's self rightousness, but concern and discusssion.
All the behavior seen as unethical but legal combined with the social media disease that has infected hunting is directly leading to the loss of hunting opportunity. Especially for the public land hunter. That is fact. Loose lips sink ships. Pimping out a resource for profit shouldn't be celebrated.
I hate hearing " if it's legal ". ..
They've made smoking dope legal in some places ....I've witnessed this " legal " ruin many lives and family's .
The ole saying " stand for something or Fall for anything comes to mind .
If it's legal ??? What a cop out ...
I been biting my tongue on this one but what I will say is this is an open forum where discussion can be had about controversial subjects. Opinions can voiced and debate can made about what is perceived to be right and wrong with the direction of turkey hunting today. It's a great site and I'm not aware of any other place where these discussions can be had and followed by so many.
There's going to be things said that you don't agree with and might possibly offend you. It may come as a surprise to some but in America you don't have the right too not be offended. You do have the right to your opinion and openly voice it.
If you don't agree with somebody give them your point of view respectfully. I don't see where resorting to name calling and telling people to suck it up furthers your side of the debate.
The "If it's legal" side of this and other debates falls short with me. Your more than welcome to pursue what ever you want within the guidelines of the law. I disagree that I have to like and/or except it. Change doesn't come from excepting things you feel are wrong. I wonder where this nation would be or if it would even be if this thought process held true.
I've never been a fan of the "everybody gets a trophy" mentality. When the trend is to dumb down things so everybody gets a trophy, versus work at getting better, then we are headed in the wrong direction. And I'm not just talking about hunting, although it is a good example.
So you mean I didn't really win those trophys they just felt sorry for my sorry arse! :(
Now I'm depressed
Depends what it says on the trophy :D
I ain't touching that one
I did win a few trophies showing horses as a kid ... some of my best memories ....
Turkey hunting was once a venture that required adaptability and skill to consistently fill tags. The learning curve was steep. Subjecting oneself to inexplicable failure dozens and dozens of times was requisite for completing it. It was an honorable endeavor without cheap success.
Turkey hunting today is now easier than ever. From the guns and TSS, to blinds and ultra life-like decoys, to the technological advantage digital, handheld maps provide it's truly mindblowing. Combine that with the biological and scientific data hunters (the good ones, at least) now use as factors in their set-up and calling strategies and it's hard to comprehend how far some of you guys in the "if it's legal, it's cool" camp will allow things to go.
The most ironic part of it is watching hunting laws continue to be liberalized to facilitate "opportunity" for folks. Seeing the most conservative folks in the political spectrum embrace woke, b u l l s h i t tactics is pretty frightening.
At the end of the day, the most skill-less, tactic for killing turkeys is reaping/fanning. I could give my 7 year old every tool in the world except a fan and he would not be able to go to the woods and kill a gobbbler by himself. But if I gave him a fan and his .410, I'd give that rascal a 70% chance of being able to kill one (he's already killed more turkeys at 7 than some of the folks reading this post). And the harsh, undeniable reality is, it's just that damn easy to kill a turkey with a fan.
We should all be able to agree that during this time of decreased poult production, increased hunting pressure, and record harvests, it should be illegal to employ high percentage tactics. If turkeys were everywhere and number were increasing, it would be a different conversation. But that's not where we're at and I think we should all be as vocal and engaged with our respective state DNR's to make this tactic ILLEGAL.
Thanks for coming to my TED talk.
Quote from: Kyle_Ott on July 09, 2023, 08:51:18 PM
Turkey hunting was once a venture that required adaptability and skill to consistently fill tags. The learning curve was steep. Subjecting oneself to inexplicable failure dozens and dozens of times was requisite for completing it. It was an honorable endeavor without cheap success.
Turkey hunting today is now easier than ever. From the guns and TSS, to blinds and ultra life-like decoys, to the technological advantage digital, handheld maps provide it's truly mindblowing. Combine that with the biological and scientific data hunters (the good ones, at least) now use as factors in their set-up and calling strategies and it's hard to comprehend how far some of you guys in the "if it's legal, it's cool" camp will allow things to go.
The most ironic part of it is watching hunting laws continue to be liberalized to facilitate "opportunity" for folks. Seeing the most conservative folks in the political spectrum embrace woke, b u l l s h i t tactics is pretty frightening.
At the end of the day, the most skill-less, tactic for killing turkeys is reaping/fanning. I could give my 7 year old every tool in the world except a fan and he would not be able to go to the woods and kill a gobbbler by himself. But if I gave him a fan and his .410, I'd give that rascal a 70% chance of being able to kill one (he's already killed more turkeys at 7 than some of the folks reading this post). And the harsh, undeniable reality is, it's just that damn easy to kill a turkey with a fan.
We should all be able to agree that during this time of decreased poult production, increased hunting pressure, and record harvests, it should be illegal to employ high percentage tactics. If turkeys were everywhere and number were increasing, it would be a different conversation. But that's not where we're at and I think we should all be as vocal and engaged with our respective state DNR's to make this tactic ILLEGAL.
Thanks for coming to my TED talk.
Another great post!!
Pfft! See reply in new post "This Forums Direction".
Bout as bad as the ones who complain when someone shoots their Strutting decoy and then act like it's the shooters fault.
Quote from: Ihuntoldschool on July 11, 2023, 03:22:57 PM
Bout as bad as the ones who complain when someone shoots their Strutting decoy and then act like it's the shooters fault.
Is this a serious post?
Dang :homersimpson:
Well, I wanna make this point. This is assuming we see the truth in THP/Pinhoti videos: They ain't using ultra realistic decoys or blinds. The THP guys guns look like several in my safe ( not hi dollar) and while Dave is shooting Benelli, it's a 20 with hand loaded TSS 9s ( not max dram 10-12s with 7s TSS) And most of its public ( which I will agree shouldn't be "pimped"). However, those guys find success without all those crutches so called hunters limp along on. If all that was taken away I believe a large majority of the Turkey hunting population would stay home... and it wouldn't matter as much if all those spots were revealed.... Just food for thought and a little pot stirring.
Quote from: joey46 on July 11, 2023, 04:16:48 PM
Quote from: Ihuntoldschool on July 11, 2023, 03:22:57 PM
Bout as bad as the ones who complain when someone shoots their Strutting decoy and then act like it's the shooters fault.
Is this a serious post?
I would lean this way. Some responsibility has to lie with the person reaping or sitting behind a full strut decoy, many that look very life like. That's one reason it shouldn't be legal to reap. Imagine you are sitting at a field edge, higher grass with break of a hill 25-30 steps away. Early morning, turkey gobbled not long before, just out of sight. You heard him drumming. A few minutes later he goes quiet. A little bit later a real fan tops the break, and then a gobbler in full strut tops the the hill. Maybe the sun is in your eyes. Maybe it's a little foggy. Not a person on here for at least a split second wouldn't think it's a real gobbler. Not saying you don't figure it out, but horrible mistakes can happen fast. So, I believe in that case, the guy crawling behind the decoy should receive the brunt of the blame. That's being brutally honest.... Just don't do it!!
Quote from: joey46 on July 11, 2023, 04:16:48 PM
Quote from: Ihuntoldschool on July 11, 2023, 03:22:57 PM
Bout as bad as the ones who complain when someone shoots their Strutting decoy and then act like it's the shooters fault.
Is this a serious post?
I do not completely disagree...
I remember a professor talking about hunting accidents, that were largely due to the human brain often times seeing what it wants to see. The discussion took place around several incidents that were well-known. One was a girl wearing a purple jacket shot in her yard wearing white mittens. Young kid killed her under the supervision of a guide.
Imagine someone learning to turkey hunt... Has not killed a bird yet... Realistic decoy with a turkey fan???
And... I have known of several people that have been shot hunting. Couple of turkey hunters, my father quail hunting, another friend self-inflicted while duck hunting (lost his foot)... None of this made the "hunting news." I know my fathers incident was not reported anywhere as a hunting accident...
So how would we know if more people are getting shot???
I have deliberately not brought this up, because most of the posters in this thread already know it and I don't want to dwell on it. People will just get tired of hearing it and my story becomes ineffective. The last few post have convinced me I should say something.
Now I am speaking from the perspective of someone who has been shot turkey hunting and fought for his life, went through a year of healing and fought the legal battles over health care charges. Listen to me and listen well, YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR EVERY SHOT YOU TAKE, PERIOD! Where it ends up is the shooter's responsibility, stupidity on the other end does not matter, know what you are shooting. Deflection of this responsibility will not hold up in a court of law, I know this for 100% fact. I lived this nightmare and almost gave my life to it. I watched and worried in desperation as companies came after me for money and threatened to ruin my financial life. Never assume the shooter will pay for everything, mine never paid a dime. So tell me why I should take any responsibility when all I was doing was walking a trail and using a turkey call (all perfectly legal)? My shooter was hunting legally, but made a horrible mistake. I was the one who nearly died and suffered for months if not years, am I to blame? Safety is issue number one to me and will always be. Hunt with me and not practice safety and I will tell you the hunt is over, no discussion. I can not even stand to be around other hunters and I leave soon as I hear someone calling or see someone. I trust very few people. It will most definitely steal much of the joy out of your hunting and haunt you forever. My accident was never reported to anyone except those who know me and those I have told. The local cops were called and they just shrugged it off as an accident and never even reported it to wildlife. I told wildlife officials but no one ever recorded it, you can not find any record of it. How many are out there like mine.
Feel free to debate all you want, but at the end of the day my request is we all ask this one simple question....Is a turkey worth dying for?
So, call me a whiner, complainer and self-righteous if you please, but I wake up and call myself blessed by God to be alive. If my opinions seem dictative and narrow minded it is because I know beyond a doubt what lies on the other side of unsafe behavior, it is pain, tragedy, sadness and despair. with that said, we can not legislate responsible behaviors, but we can limit tools we know encourage unsafe behaviors. It's not about taking liberty away it's about protecting the sanctity of human life. Thanks for reading my whining,selfish and biased rant.
You certainly have a reason to be biased. No question.
I hope my "rants" aren't misconstrued as being pro reap. I think reaping is nothing more than a disaster waiting to happen. I'm lucky enough to be able to hunt some tightly controlled private land. My usual hunting buddy has mentioned reaping. We have NEVER tried it and won't if I'm present. Even although this land is gated, posted, locked and vast in acreage our cameras (still legal)will occasionally pick up two legged intruders that when viewed we say "who the hell is that". Nobody knows. Florida is a state that still allows the use of rifles on private land. To think about crawling around an overgrown pasture in camo holding a turkey tail in front of my face is close to suicidal IMO. Being shot with a turkey load at 50 yards is scary. Being sniped at 200 yards by a trespasser with a .243 even more so. Reaping is a dumb tactic. If I would see a legal reaper I would think what a dumb nitwit but wouldn't jump up and shout , reaper reaper in the field, and attempt to stop this still legal hunt. I think some on here would and later post and sanctimoniouly brag about it
My "rants" were first triggered by the "decoy" comments then fed by multiple post on various tactics and equipment that are perfectly legal but many of the self-righteous think should be restricted or banned in the interest of saving their way of life. If some would get their way you would have to sign an affidavit that you had not watched a turkey show on social media 6 months prior to hunting and your vehicle would be required to display a WE HATE THP sticker. It goes without saying, no GPS, no blinds, no OnX, no TSS, no this, no that. Getting "almost" funny until it isn't.
Since we are all clarifying our positions on matters, when talking about the use of any sort of hunting tactic that might be legal in a locale, I boil down my opinions on it with three basic questions: (again, speaking only about hunting-related issues, not biological or environmental ones)
Is it (demonstrably and significantly) safe...or conversely, unsafe? (a subjective question until statistically supported one way or the other)
Does the use of this tactic fall into the category of "fair chase"? (again, a subjective question, but generally based on some level of consensus among hunters)
Will the widescale use of this tactic jeopardize turkey populations to a degree that restricting its use needs to be considered (objective, but requires verifiable evidence, which may or may not be difficult to assess).
Of these three questions, the last two fall into the same category, but the one that concerns me the most is the last. That is, are the tactics we are allowing to be used resulting in a greater percentage of any segment of the turkey population to be killed than should take place in order to maintain the viability of the resource? I never even questioned that possibility until the advent of the use of male turkey decoys and fans in spring hunting, but I have personally seen/witnessed enough evidence that I have become concerned that our male turkey population may be being over-harvested in places as a result of the use of this tactic. Perhaps more empirical evidence is needed to support my concerns about it, but those concerns exist, nevertheless.
As for the safety issue, I don't want to sound like I discount it, but I am somewhat of a "show me the money" guy in that I want ("require" is a better term) factual support for taking any position on that particular matter. At this point in time, I just don't see it. There are a LOT of things we do in our lives that are a lot more dangerous than any sort of tactic any of us might use in hunting turkeys.
If in a deer hunting area I don't wear a brown coat and put antlers on my head but that's just me. Reaping is inherently dangerous by it's nature.
Many states are headed for shorter seasons and reduced limits. That should take care of the over harvest of male birds. Just a IMO but all these other so called remedies are smoke and mirrors enacted to postpone the inevitable and keep the residents happy.
Fair chase, when following the law, is in the eye of the beholder.
Bo, did you read "Old Pro Turkey Hunter" by Gene Nunnery
"One Man Game " by Kenny Morgan, and of course "Tenth Legion" Tom Kelly
Here's my take on male decoys and especially strutters and fair chase. The dominant gobbler/gobblers in an area "will" react to male/ strutting decoys in their territory especially if he see's a hen decoy or hears a hunter calling from nearby the decoy. He has no choice. He doesn't decide he's going to come over an take a look or pick a fight. He reacts on instinct. It's in his genes. Ha has to do it. It's how he became a dominant gobbler. If he didn't he would be just another subordinate sulking around looking for scraps.
When you deploy male decoys and harvest a gobbler inevitably it will be a turkey with these aggressive dominant genes. Your not calling him in for the shot, your killing an animal that has no choice in the matter.
Hen decoys may have the same effect by playing on sexual urges as does calling but not nearly as much as male decoys. A hen decoy won't pull a dominant gobbler away from his harem as is often the case when a male decoys are deployed solo with or in tandem with a hen. Your using a visual cue to trigger an instinctual reacting forcing the dominant gobbler to atleast come and investigate and most likely more. In my book that's not hunting. Until the advent and use of these decoys, dominant gobblers were untouchable until late season unless the whole flock came along.
Some refer to decoys in waterfowl hunting as an attempt to justify thier use in turkey hunting. Apples and oranges. Decoys for waterfowl play on the social nature of ducks and geese and the possibility of safety. They have a choice whether on not to join the birds on the water or in the field. The dominant gobbler does not. He must react. It's who he is!
Then there's the dominant gobbler theory. Simply stated, taking a dominant gobbler too early in the breeding cycle messes the works up by prolonging the breeding cycle within the flock causing initial attempts at egg laying to be delayed by the hens that have not bred yet. Causing incubation and polt rearing to be a drawn out affair spreading the hatch over a longer period of time making eggs and polts more vulnerable to predation than if the the incubation/hatch cycle were concentrated into a smaller window of time. If all the eggs get put on the ground around the same time the predators will only be able to eat so many eggs/polts before they are large enough to better avoid predation. Draw this period of incubation and initial polt rearing out over an extended period of time allows predators access to more. Example, A raccoon with a belly full of eggs isn't going looking for more eggs to to eat. When he gets hungry he'll look for more eggs. If the period of time when eggs are available to him is prolonged he'll be able to eat more eggs.
Horse hockey is the reply to this theory by some. Hen turkey breed with whatever ever males are available. My question to them is " why then all this pecking order stuff every day of the year if not to establish a hierarchy in the breeding structure of the flock?
There's no scientific data at this point to dispell or confirm the feasibility of the dominant gobbler theory but it makes sense to me.
That's my opinion on the the matter. Your more than welcome to use decoys when and where you choose if it's legal but I don't have to condon or like your use of them and when the subject is brought up I have no qualms about stating my position on their use whether you like it or not.
As far as reaping goes, my opinion above stands the same with an addition leaning towards the possible ignorance of those deploying the tactic in certain situations.
Quote from: GobbleNut on July 12, 2023, 10:27:39 AM
...Is it (demonstrably and significantly) safe...or conversely, unsafe? (a subjective question until statistically supported one way or the other)....
...As for the safety issue, I don't want to sound like I discount it, but I am somewhat of a "show me the money" guy in that I want ("require" is a better term) factual support for taking any position on that particular matter. At this point in time, I just don't see it. There are a LOT of things we do in our lives that are a lot more dangerous than any sort of tactic any of us might use in hunting turkeys.
Given the propensity of news media to underreport any substantive facts other than the hunter was shot and whatever medical resources are brought to bear, or report nothing more than a paragraph, and defaults to describing it as an accident. I follow these stories for years now, and the follow-ups are dismal for any further explanations unless a trial ensues and a verdict is reached. Unless one has access to the law enforcement databases you have to foil everything to learn anything further regarding the event. The privacy laws and restrictions before trial render "show me the money" as a lame and moot position. I don't intend to be snarky in saying this. But it is frustrating to read this in a vacuum of willful ignorance. Wildlife agencies and law enforcement are not tough on these events as they are seldom prosecuted with the victim's interest in mind. There are still a few fanning/reaping events actually described if you bother to google it. Bother to look...
Quote from: mookyj on July 12, 2023, 09:32:01 PM
Quote from: GobbleNut on July 12, 2023, 10:27:39 AM
...Is it (demonstrably and significantly) safe...or conversely, unsafe? (a subjective question until statistically supported one way or the other)....
...As for the safety issue, I don't want to sound like I discount it, but I am somewhat of a "show me the money" guy in that I want ("require" is a better term) factual support for taking any position on that particular matter. At this point in time, I just don't see it. There are a LOT of things we do in our lives that are a lot more dangerous than any sort of tactic any of us might use in hunting turkeys.
The privacy laws and restrictions before trial render "show me the money" as a lame and moot position. I don't intend to be snarky in saying this. But it is frustrating to read this in a vacuum of willful ignorance. There are still a few fanning/reaping events actually described if you bother to google it. Bother to look...
I will preface this rebuttal by stating that I, too, am not trying to be snarky...just stating my opinion based on my observations and research.
I took your advice and "Googled it" again, as it has been a while since the last time I did it. I must assume my Google is different from your Google (living out here in the wild west makes anything possible, I suppose) since I perused quite a number of pages looking objectively for any support for the possibility that I am being willfully ignorant in my stance that, as of now, fanning and/or reaping have not been shown to be any more dangerous than other activities associated with turkey hunting accidents. From my cursory inspection of those pages of reports on turkey hunting accidents, reaping/fanning fell far behind other causes such as mistaken for game (not reaping/fanning related) and accidental discharge of firearms accidents.
I must also assume from your comments that you possibly believe there is a nefarious conspiracy by law enforcement, authorities, and/or wildlife agencies to intentionally not report, or otherwise cover up, turkey hunting accidents involving fanning/reaping while, on the other hand, there are all sorts of other hunting accident reports on Google. Perhaps all of these agencies are in cahoots with the makers of all the reaping/fanning/decoy equipment and aids on the market because preserving their product sales is way more important than saving the lives of the supposed myriad hunters that theoretically have been shot while taking part in this practice...and that have supposedly not been reported. Simply put, if there was any significant correlation between turkey hunting accidents and reaping/fanning, we would most certainly have seen actions taken to stop the practice by now. In addition, if and when such a correlation is shown, I will be the first to run up the red flag.
And finally, I am not here to defend reaping/fanning. I would like to see the practice eliminated because I believe turkey gobblers are too susceptible to it, may result in the overharvest of our gobbler populations, and is very questionable in terms of whether it constitutes fair chase...not to mention the possibility that the practice has resulted in an overall reduction of hunting opportunity in many places. I repeat, if you want me to jump on board the "let's outlaw reaping/fanning because it is too unsafe" train, you STILL have to show this old boy the hard evidence to support your position. I most certainly did not find it in my Google search.
...On the other hand, if you want to eliminate the practice based on the concept of fair chase and possibly jeopardizing turkey populations, I am totally on board. :icon_thumright:
After reading some of the most recent post I have drafted the following letter to the Florida Wildlife Commission (FWC). I will await comments from this group of opinionated hunters before hitting the send button:
Dear FWC,
After being thoroughly educated on proper behavior by the Turkey Psychologists on the Old Gobbler forum I have no choice, in good conscience, to request the removal of my name and 2008 Osceola entry from the Florida Outstanding Gobbler list. It currently stands at number 133. Little did I know that even with getting up at 2am, walking through the dark into a deep cypress swamp, setting up behind a piece of camo netting (gasp), and calling to this bird for at least an hour his fate was sealed only because we used decoys. I now feel like we poached him. No other factors should be considered regarding this bird's demise. I could not be more embarrassed.
I have hunted these wild turkeys since the late 1970s and my unofficial log and beard box shows my lifetime total at well over a 100 birds from multiple states. I will attempt to purge my records and eliminate any birds from this count where I'm certain we had used decoys, camo netting, TSS loads or viewed them previously on a game camera. I do often use an original tube call personally sold to me by Harold Knight in his Cadiz KY barbershop but I think that is still acceptable behavior. Thank heavens we never reaped or I would stick my head in the oven or take up reaping to get the same result. I will also attempt to forget any tips I learned from social media even it requires hypnosis. After all fair is fair.
Thank you for your consideration of this request.
Sincerely,
me
Should I hit send??
(note - no mention of not being snarky - we're well past snarky)
You mention assuming... as a conspiracy was not mentioned and I 'assume' you did this to deflate as a arguing tactic.
There are websites set up by anti-hunters that list as many mishaps we hunters have in order to make us look bad. Maybe your Google skills could find that? I have run into plenty of doubting Thomas's such as you in the past. If you can't or won't take up the time to properly research the topic, then willful ignorance is what suits you. Most never put forth the effort to look past what suits their premise or stop at the first instance it agrees with their thinking. You'll enjoy my book "Reapercide" coming out after I get the current queue cleared. Maybe then, your "Google" will find something.
Maybe I could hire you to lure in big bucks after buying you a generous life insurance policy to wear a deer suit and sport a set of booners this fall for the opening day of deer season? It is an exacting parallel and just as lacking in any concern for safety.
I have had turkey hunters come up to me while I was a state chapter president at NWTF conventions with large envelopes, filled with a photo(s) and copies of reports, that I could not find on the web, their stories did not exist on the internet, making it impossible to find any depositions or followups to stories even while having more info to narrow searches, and that goes way back to 1999. there's been eight of those that they wanted someone to know it actually happened. What you will find are summarized reports calling it an accident, and sometimes they mention stalking or decoys, with no detail whatsoever. No conspiracy just underreported. Nice try...
I hope you learn to take up comprehensive reading as if I wished to put it forth as such that it is a conspiracy I would have done so. I sure would have written it far differently. No between the lines to read. I find it rather odd your "research" failed to bring up any report. Yet I have cited them in my blog postings. I do stand behind "show me the money" is lame and intellectually lazy. HIPAA laws, pending litigation forbids the release of the very information we want to know. If you can't grasp that, can't help you, no further discussion will be fruitful. Small hint- set up your Google search to send reports based on keywords. If you had/have a genuine intent to learn, you might find this helpful...
Quote from: GobbleNut on July 13, 2023, 12:00:49 AM
Quote from: mookyj on July 12, 2023, 09:32:01 PM
Quote from: GobbleNut on July 12, 2023, 10:27:39 AM
...Is it (demonstrably and significantly) safe...or conversely, unsafe? (a subjective question until statistically supported one way or the other)....
...As for the safety issue, I don't want to sound like I discount it, but I am somewhat of a "show me the money" guy in that I want ("require" is a better term) factual support for taking any position on that particular matter. At this point in time, I just don't see it. There are a LOT of things we do in our lives that are a lot more dangerous than any sort of tactic any of us might use in hunting turkeys.
The privacy laws and restrictions before trial render "show me the money" as a lame and moot position. I don't intend to be snarky in saying this. But it is frustrating to read this in a vacuum of willful ignorance. There are still a few fanning/reaping events actually described if you bother to google it. Bother to look...
I will preface this rebuttal by stating that I, too, am not trying to be snarky...just stating my opinion based on my observations and research.
I took your advice and "Googled it" again, as it has been a while since the last time I did it. I must assume my Google is different from your Google (living out here in the wild west makes anything possible, I suppose) since I perused quite a number of pages looking objectively for any support for the possibility that I am being willfully ignorant in my stance that, as of now, fanning and/or reaping have not been shown to be any more dangerous than other activities associated with turkey hunting accidents. From my cursory inspection of those pages of reports on turkey hunting accidents, reaping/fanning fell far behind other causes such as mistaken for game (not reaping/fanning related) and accidental discharge of firearms accidents.
I must also assume from your comments that you possibly believe there is a nefarious conspiracy by law enforcement, authorities, and/or wildlife agencies to intentionally not report, or otherwise cover up, turkey hunting accidents involving fanning/reaping while, on the other hand, there are all sorts of other hunting accident reports on Google. Perhaps all of these agencies are in cahoots with the makers of all the reaping/fanning/decoy equipment and aids on the market because preserving their product sales is way more important than saving the lives of the supposed myriad hunters that theoretically have been shot while taking part in this practice...and that have supposedly not been reported. Simply put, if there was any significant correlation between turkey hunting accidents and reaping/fanning, we would most certainly have seen actions taken to stop the practice by now. In addition, if and when such a correlation is shown, I will be the first to run up the red flag.
And finally, I am not here to defend reaping/fanning. I would like to see the practice eliminated because I believe turkey gobblers are too susceptible to it, may result in the overharvest of our gobbler populations, and is very questionable in terms of whether it constitutes fair chase...not to mention the possibility that the practice has resulted in an overall reduction of hunting opportunity in many places. I repeat, if you want me to jump on board the "let's outlaw reaping/fanning because it is too unsafe" train, you STILL have to show this old boy the hard evidence to support your position. I most certainly did not find it in my Google search.
...On the other hand, if you want to eliminate the practice based on the concept of fair chase and possibly jeopardizing turkey populations, I am totally on board. :icon_thumright:
As far as accident causes go, I know Ohio records all accidents that are reported and all of those are investigated. In most every case the shooter is cited. A simple records request would get this data. When I was working we got a season summary news release and it would include the number of accidents and if any were fatal. Most news media outlets never reported it. I don't know if this is still done. I do know accidents were on a decline. Most common cause I knew of was mistaken for game and usually calling and movement were involved. Failure to properly identify game was what was the mistake in most. Some were simply unsafe firearms handling and accidental discharge. Decoys were involved in many of them, but it wasn't a statistical significant factor. I do not oppose decoys or many of the many disputed methods. I agree with Gobblenut that reaping seems wrong on a biological stance but has not proven to be a significant cause of accidents. Maybe this is because those using it are keenly aware of the risk and actually make more effort to do it more carefully. At the end of the day, we as hunters bear all the responsibility to be sure of what we are shooting. I think hunter safety training has greatly reduced hunting accidents.
As far as this forum goes, we are just a small group of hunters and more like a deer camp than anything representative of the hunting public as a whole. We do not even make the cut when applied to the rest of licensed turkey hunters. Of all the turkey hunters I know I am the odd duck and not the norm. Almost all them use decoys, blinds, cameras and the most modern loads. I have no qualm with any of them and I will hunt with those close to me. If they want to take decoys along I will never say no, but they know I don't like to use them so they normally don't take them, but if they do I will be ok with it. If we get birds into decoys it's their shot and they are welcome to take the bird and I will do the dance with them. I personally have never shot a bird over a decoy and since we're using numbers, that's 200+ birds. I like the discussion as it expands my knowledge base and I find it as a form of comradery and friendship. I am sorry that it has become offensive and contentious. Perhaps we are harming the forum's ability to appeal to the masses and common turkey hunter, but I don't think so. I have seen what happens on the unmonitored or poorly monitored forums and it gets ugly fast. My appeal is to step back take a breath and lets all be brothers and friends. I have difference of opinions with all my friends, but I still love and care for everyone of them. I have the same feelings for the friends here.
The OP posed the original question; Closet Reaper? and asked a review of a video on reaping
I am going to make the assumption he was asking if maybe in the right time and place and with personal privacy that if we'd secretly consider using the tactic. I will go on record as saying no for myself. I have witnessed it and I decided it was unfair to the birds. Just my opinion. I have hunted with guys carrying fans and I make it clear I am sitting back and not participating if they pull it out, but I do not tell them they can't do it. I also believe many hunters would us it if they had a chance to do it privately and secretly, this is just human nature. I have done many things in my life I am not proud of and I suspect we all have. Principle is something developed not inherent, we're all working on it.
I would add "You (Reap) what you sow". I understand it's legal, but is it the smartest thing to do? Would not do it myself or especially with a kid for the safety aspect. If you taught a kid to hunt like this (knowing how dangerous it could be) and next season he was shot and killed doing what you taught him. Good luck living with that. NO THANK YOU!!!
Nice reply. I was thinking how to include that Biblical quote but you nailed it
Quote from: GobbleNut on July 12, 2023, 10:27:39 AM
As for the safety issue, I don't want to sound like I discount it, but I am somewhat of a "show me the money" guy in that I want ("require" is a better term) factual support for taking any position on that particular matter. At this point in time, I just don't see it. There are a LOT of things we do in our lives that are a lot more dangerous than any sort of tactic any of us might use in hunting turkeys.
As mentioned above, I know of several people involved in hunting accidents... Never made the papers or the news... So, unless you know the person being shot, this is not widely publicized (which is probably a good thing for the optics of hunting).
Even if the number of people shot from reaping doubled, it would still not be significant enough to make it to public information... So how would we know if the numbers for hunting incidents from reaping are increasing (unlsess someone dies).
Quote from: joey46 on July 13, 2023, 05:53:18 AM
After reading some of the most recent post I have drafted the following letter to the Florida Wildlife Commission (FWC). I will await comments from this group of opinionated hunters before hitting the send button:
Dear FWC,
After being thoroughly educated on proper behavior by the Turkey Psychologists on the Old Gobbler forum I have no choice, in good conscience, to request the removal of my name and 2008 Osceola entry from the Florida Outstanding Gobbler list. It currently stands at number 133. Little did I know that even with getting up at 2am, walking through the dark into a deep cypress swamp, setting up behind a piece of camo netting (gasp), and calling to this bird for at least an hour his fate was sealed only because we used decoys. I now feel like we poached him. No other factors should be considered regarding this bird's demise. I could not be more embarrassed.
I have hunted these wild turkeys since the late 1970s and my unofficial log and beard box shows my lifetime total at well over a 100 birds from multiple states. I will attempt to purge my records and eliminate any birds from this count where I'm certain we had used decoys, camo netting, TSS loads or viewed them previously on a game camera. I do often use an original tube call personally sold to me by Harold Knight in his Cadiz KY barbershop but I think that is still acceptable behavior. Thank heavens we never reaped or I would stick my head in the oven or take up reaping to get the same result. I will also attempt to forget any tips I learned from social media even it requires hypnosis. After all fair is fair.
Thank you for your consideration of this request.
Sincerely,
me
Should I hit send??
(note - no mention of not being snarky - we're well past snarky)
Well that's it! Close the thread! The debate has been settled and I've changed my mind. It must have been the way you so eloquently cited your observations of turkey behavior over your vast years of hunting experience. Or maybe it's the way you pat yourself on the back and feel the need for further ego stroking by stating the number of gobblers you've slain including your entry to the by god almighty 2008 Florida's Outstanding Gobblers list that did it for me.
My brother killed a 28lb, 11 inch bearded, 1.5" spurred gobbler his 1st morning ever turkey hunting some 30 odd years ago and yes he killed him using a Jake and hen decoy. He didn't know a thing about turkeys and how to hunt them. His calling was pathetic. All he knew was the gobblers looked different than the hens and they gobbled. There was no hunting involved. He got up at 3am, drove 20 mins to his spot, walked to a tree on the edge of a pasture, set out his decoys, sat down, and waited for the sun to come up. Shortly after flydown the brute emerged from the woods and promptly stomped the Jake decoy before my brother dropped the hammer on him. He was back in his truck before the sun came up so you'll have to forgive me if I don't stand in awe while basking in the radiance of your glory and take a knee to kiss the ring because of your great accomplishments and the fact you bought a turkey call from Harold Knight.
Wait, wait, I got it. I have been converted by the way you talk down to people as though you are the know all, be all, God of turkey hunting and I need to shut up and obey for the simple fact that it's you.
Thanks for opening my eyes with the great accounts of your experiences and the wisdom you've shared. I'm forever in your debt!
How's that for being well past snarky?
Quote from: joey46 on July 13, 2023, 05:53:18 AM
After reading some of the most recent post I have drafted the following letter to the Florida Wildlife Commission (FWC). I will await comments from this group of opinionated hunters before hitting the send button:
Dear FWC,
After being thoroughly educated on proper behavior by the Turkey Psychologists on the Old Gobbler forum I have no choice, in good conscience, to request the removal of my name and 2008 Osceola entry from the Florida Outstanding Gobbler list. It currently stands at number 133. Little did I know that even with getting up at 2am, walking through the dark into a deep cypress swamp, setting up behind a piece of camo netting (gasp), and calling to this bird for at least an hour his fate was sealed only because we used decoys. I now feel like we poached him. No other factors should be considered regarding this bird's demise. I could not be more embarrassed.
I have hunted these wild turkeys since the late 1970s and my unofficial log and beard box shows my lifetime total at well over a 100 birds from multiple states. I will attempt to purge my records and eliminate any birds from this count where I'm certain we had used decoys, camo netting, TSS loads or viewed them previously on a game camera. I do often use an original tube call personally sold to me by Harold Knight in his Cadiz KY barbershop but I think that is still acceptable behavior. Thank heavens we never reaped or I would stick my head in the oven or take up reaping to get the same result. I will also attempt to forget any tips I learned from social media even it requires hypnosis. After all fair is fair.
Thank you for your consideration of this request.
Sincerely,
me
Should I hit send??
(note - no mention of not being snarky - we're well past snarky)
Seems like opinions that question 80-90 yard shots, electronic decoys, electronic callers, safety with reaping, etc. are considered anti-hunters should sit down and shut up. Surprising for someone that's turkey hunted for 50 years. It's like the argument, "that's why we have limits"..... breaking news - not all limits are meant to be filled or we would have none left to hunt. But, as said before let's just not say anything and continue to cut corners as hunters and see where we end up.
A guy at work has a brother trying to patent an audio device that could be set up with instant notification and eliminate scouting.... That's the gist of the product. Yep, makes perfect sense. Let's just continue with advancements and remain quiet.
If you want to crawl around behind a gobbler decoy you should give up your rights to prosecute if you are shot or killed. People trying to defend themselves saying its always the shooters fault should be smacked upside thier heads. If you you act and look like a target animal in the woods its you who put yourself in that senerio plain and simple.
"Banners" can throw tantrums (example a few post prior)hold their breath until they turn blue and kick their feet but social media is here to stay as long as it stays profitable to it's creator's. The general consensus of what I'm reading seems to make this the biggest banner's concern with the exception of decoys. Almost a toss up which is most worrisome to the forum elite. The big turkey decline will be solved or controlled with reduced limits and shorter seasons. When this is accepted all the decoy, TSS, blinds, etc concerns may fade away. Reaping will take care of itself when a few are blinded or killed while using this foolish tactic. Never seen a bigger group of "we know best". Many appear to try to brow beat until you give up, toss your decoys and TSS and admit you have been a worthless scumbag all along because you don't hunt like the new breed of cool guys.
Lots of animosity now. I'll get over it. Think about getting over it also Paulie you looked like a **** to me on your prior post. Yes I am proud of my Florida big gobbler even though I used a decoy. I have been blessed to take multiple gobblers over several decades. Bother to look and you'll see me often describe how I hunt and seldom suggest how others should hunt. If that's a problem for some that is not my problem but yours. Live with it. Amen.
Quote from: joey46 on July 14, 2023, 12:16:16 AM
The big turkey decline will be solved or controlled with reduced limits and shorter seasons. When that is accepted all the decoy, TSS, blinds, etc concerns will fade away.
Sounds like opinion to me but you state it as fact. New research and investigations are starting to reveal the possibility that the biggest culprit in the decline in turkey populations is the drastic reduction in polt rearing habitat. Habitat that polts need for the 1st few weeks after being hatched. One of the biggest contributors to this decline seems to have been the introduction of CRP when the farm bill was signed in 1985. This program appears to be responsible for the desecration of millions of acres of possible polt rearing habitat by paying for the implementation of poorly managed pine forest and invasive grasses that are of little use to turkeys just out of the egg in the name of erosion control and protecting water quality.
There is a distinct correlation between the implementation of these pine forest to the boom in wild turkey populations when vast acres of soil were disturbed to plant the trees. During the early stages of development these pine plantings provided excellent habitat for rearing polts during the boom in populations in the late 80's and 90's.
Many land owners were more than happy to convert poor and marginal ag/pasture land to these CRP pine habitats with the promise of a cash crop of mature trees after the land was to be withdrawn from the program. Great plan in theory for the land owner but here's the catch. After the advent of the personal computer and the internet the bottom fell out of the paper market. Emails are sent instead of letters and written works (private and business)are stored on hard drives instead of typed out on paper. It appears the internet is extremely culpable for the decline of wild turkeys in certain areas but not because of social media.
When the bottom of the paper market dropped out the management of these pine plantings went to the wayside. Mills closed and there was no way for land owners to cash in on their pine crops. Thinnings of the trees weren't followed through on and vast acres of this CRP pine grew into a jumbled mess of little use to wild turkey or their polts. The correlation between these maturing jumbled pine plantings and the decline in wild turkeys populations also exists. That's just the pine factor in this equation not taking into account the millions of acres of native habitat that was lost to the planting and spread of invasive mat forming grasses like fescue and bermuda.
As of now polt rearing habitat is a dismal percentage of the overall landscape available to turkeys. When or if land owners become aware of this problem and if they do something about it things will change for the wild turkey. When I say land owners I mean private, federal, state, and county. If the push is made to get these private owners and the govt entities to reclaim these converted areas and to stop the planting of non native mat forming grasses and start panting native grasses and forbes beneficial to the wild turkey they will recover. Those are big if's. Than possibly the talk of banning in the name of preserving the wild turkey will cease.
Still doesn't change my opinion on decoys because I believe it's a fair chase issue.
Well of course it is an opinion. This whole forum is an opinion. What you'll see is that I'll play this game until others cry "no mas". The older you get the more you reject the " we know best" crowd.
Suffice it to say: We grow old too fast and smart too slow!
Quote from: Turkeybutt on July 14, 2023, 05:39:34 AM
Suffice it to say: We grow old too fast and smart too slow!
Ain't THAT the truth ?????
Quote from: Turkeybutt on July 14, 2023, 05:39:34 AM
Suffice it to say: We grow old too fast and smart too slow!
Is this more of that Lanc. Co. cow manure you've been shoveling :D
I hear 70 is the new 50!
Quote from: Paulmyr on July 14, 2023, 08:09:36 AM
I hear 70 is the new 50!
I'm in trouble then. I barely survived 50 the first time.
Haven't seen 50 yet, but I make the 40s look as good or better than the 20's.
Quote from: guesswho on July 14, 2023, 08:21:17 AM
Quote from: Paulmyr on July 14, 2023, 08:09:36 AM
I hear 70 is the new 50!
I'm in trouble then. I barely survived 50 the first time.
I hear that and I'm not sure I'm getting any more intelligenter either!
Quote from: guesswho on July 14, 2023, 08:21:17 AM
Quote from: Paulmyr on July 14, 2023, 08:09:36 AM
I hear 70 is the new 50!
I'm in trouble then. I barely survived 50 the first time.
Quote from: Happy on July 14, 2023, 08:23:28 AM
Haven't seen 50 yet, but I make the 40s look as good or better than the 20's.
:TooFunny: A bit of levity at these times is a good idea...
As for our ages and decade references, I barely remember the 50's...much less the 40's or 20's. At this point in time, I am just hoping that 72 is the new 71. You will reach a point where you only count one year at a time... ;D :angel9:
Quote from: Paulmyr on July 14, 2023, 08:38:34 AM
Quote from: guesswho on July 14, 2023, 08:21:17 AM
Quote from: Paulmyr on July 14, 2023, 08:09:36 AM
I hear 70 is the new 50!
I'm in trouble then. I barely survived 50 the first time.
I hear that and I'm not sure I'm getting any more intelligenter either!
I can tell by your verbage that you, sir, are a man among men.
Quote from: Happy on July 14, 2023, 09:22:13 AM
Quote from: Paulmyr on July 14, 2023, 08:38:34 AM
Quote from: guesswho on July 14, 2023, 08:21:17 AM
Quote from: Paulmyr on July 14, 2023, 08:09:36 AM
I hear 70 is the new 50!
I'm in trouble then. I barely survived 50 the first time.
I hear that and I'm not sure I'm getting any more intelligenter either!
I can tell by your verbage that you, sir, are a man among men.
I try, all that grammatical stuff was my strong point but a 6th grade edgemucation only gets a man so far.
Quote from: Paulmyr on July 14, 2023, 01:36:00 AM
One of the biggest contributors to this decline seems to have been the introduction of CRP when the farm bill was signed in 1985. This program appears to be responsible for the desecration of millions of acres of possible polt rearing habitat by paying for the implementation of poorly managed pine forest and invasive grasses that are of little use to turkeys just out of the egg in the name of erosion control and protecting water quality.
On the contrary, the drastic LOSS of CRP acreage in the midwest (think Kansas, Nebraska) is likely a major contributing factor to their turkey decline the past decade. Millions of acres of potential nesting/brood rearing habitat converted to ag.
Quote from: deerhunt1988 on July 14, 2023, 10:07:34 AM
Quote from: Paulmyr on July 14, 2023, 01:36:00 AM
One of the biggest contributors to this decline seems to have been the introduction of CRP when the farm bill was signed in 1985. This program appears to be responsible for the desecration of millions of acres of possible polt rearing habitat by paying for the implementation of poorly managed pine forest and invasive grasses that are of little use to turkeys just out of the egg in the name of erosion control and protecting water quality.
On the contrary, the drastic LOSS of CRP acreage in the midwest (think Kansas, Nebraska) is likely a major contributing factor to their turkey decline the past decade. Millions of acres of potential nesting/brood rearing habitat converted to ag.
I won't argue with that point because I believe it to be true as well. I should have specified the comments in my post were related to the southeastern US. Where I think it might differ in the relation to the implementation of CRP in the southeast is that most CRP in the prairie region was not in invasive mat forming grasses.
How about some more hillbilly wisdom. After 65 you should be more concerned with the condition of your prostrate than winning a pissing contest. Youain't winning much with a dribble.
seems like the internet is a new form of validation, see I can still pee just as far as you younguns. Only here you don't have to prove it.
Since no proof is required, I'm a streamer amongst dribblers.
I stream on electric fences just to hit the high Kee Kee notes on a yelper
Quote from: eggshell on July 14, 2023, 11:05:09 AM
How about some more hillbilly wisdom. After 65 you should be more concerned with the condition of your prostrate than winning a pissing contest. Youain't winning much with a dribble.
seems like the internet is a new form of validation, see I can still pee just as far as you younguns. Only here you don't have to prove it.
VALIDATION...... the desire of which has led to much of these cuttin' of corners amongst hunters and marketed by the hunting industry "experts and celebrities". It's probably an addiction to rival drugs and gambling. Likes, shares, and views fed by the need to be entertained. All at the expense of the old wild turkey, just trying to scratch out an existence.
Quote from: guesswho on July 14, 2023, 11:28:05 AM
Since no proof is required, I'm a streamer amongst dribblers.
Being no proof is required, I'm afraid I'll be putting many of you fellas at a disadvantage as my stream begins further beyond the starting line than most!
Well Paul, as an old farm boy I learned if your stuck plowing with a two bottom plow instead of a three bottom, you just make more rounds and take a little longer doing the job. I hear some prefer it that way.
Quote from: eggshell on July 14, 2023, 05:34:16 PM
Well Paul, as an old farm boy I learned if your stuck plowing with a two bottom plow instead of a three bottom, you just make more rounds and take a little longer doing the job. I hear some prefer it that way.
It can be a curse for sure but I try not to let it bother me. The women don't seem to mind my short feet!
Quote from: Paulmyr on July 14, 2023, 02:44:48 PM
Quote from: guesswho on July 14, 2023, 11:28:05 AM
Being no proof is required, I'm afraid I'll be putting many of you fellas at a disadvantage as my stream begins further beyond the starting line than most!
:TooFunny:
Roll up the pants boys !!! It's too late to save yer shoes.
Yeah, it clearly became unbelievable after my making 40 look better than 20 post.
Y'all bring new meaning to the outdoors.... I just hope none of you have to hike your legs ... :TooFunny:
Quote from: deerhunt1988 on July 14, 2023, 10:07:34 AM
Quote from: Paulmyr on July 14, 2023, 01:36:00 AM
One of the biggest contributors to this decline seems to have been the introduction of CRP when the farm bill was signed in 1985. This program appears to be responsible for the desecration of millions of acres of possible polt rearing habitat by paying for the implementation of poorly managed pine forest and invasive grasses that are of little use to turkeys just out of the egg in the name of erosion control and protecting water quality.
On the contrary, the drastic LOSS of CRP acreage in the midwest (think Kansas, Nebraska) is likely a major contributing factor to their turkey decline the past decade. Millions of acres of potential nesting/brood rearing habitat converted to ag.
At least in my area there wasn't a huge conversion out of CRP. My habitat is what the biologist I have been working with would call "ideal". Its almost void of birds. I went on a long 40 mile gravel bike ride the other day. I saw 4 different small hen groups. I saw no poults. I have no poults on my trail camera. I think something else (likely a combination of factors) is going on. The one big shift I have seen is small grains to corn/soybeans. However I am in the grasslands where they don't have access to that in my immediate area.
Quote from: nativeks on July 15, 2023, 02:47:28 PM
Quote from: deerhunt1988 on July 14, 2023, 10:07:34 AM
Quote from: Paulmyr on July 14, 2023, 01:36:00 AM
One of the biggest contributors to this decline seems to have been the introduction of CRP when the farm bill was signed in 1985. This program appears to be responsible for the desecration of millions of acres of possible polt rearing habitat by paying for the implementation of poorly managed pine forest and invasive grasses that are of little use to turkeys just out of the egg in the name of erosion control and protecting water quality.
On the contrary, the drastic LOSS of CRP acreage in the midwest (think Kansas, Nebraska) is likely a major contributing factor to their turkey decline the past decade. Millions of acres of potential nesting/brood rearing habitat converted to ag.
At least in my area there wasn't a huge conversion out of CRP. My habitat is what the biologist I have been working with would call "ideal". Its almost void of birds. I went on a long 40 mile gravel bike ride the other day. I saw 4 different small hen groups. I saw no poults. I have no poults on my trail camera. I think something else (likely a combination of factors) is going on. The one big shift I have seen is small grains to corn/soybeans. However I am in the grasslands where they don't have access to that in my immediate area.
It could possibly be in your area you had good turkey production because the initiation of CRP in created good polt habitat as it grew in. I'm not sure of the practice in your area but I'm under the impression that most CRP in the prairie region wasn't planted and just allowed to go fallow and allow plants from the seed bank to grow. The original plants were most likely conducive to polt rearing like forbes and the like. Again I'm not sure but I'm under the impression that once entered into CRP the land owner is not allowed to touch it. Now 30 years later certain grasses have taken over and the CRP has grown too thick from lack of disturbance to be of any use to polts during the 1st few weeks. All conjecture on my part but it maybe something to look into.
CRP is supposed to be bushhogged every other year. Most people in my area bushhog strips every year alternating each year.
I feel like the decline of CRP in my area is one cause of the decline.
Quote from: Paulmyr on July 15, 2023, 03:37:18 PM
Quote from: nativeks on July 15, 2023, 02:47:28 PM
Quote from: deerhunt1988 on July 14, 2023, 10:07:34 AM
Quote from: Paulmyr on July 14, 2023, 01:36:00 AM
One of the biggest contributors to this decline seems to have been the introduction of CRP when the farm bill was signed in 1985. This program appears to be responsible for the desecration of millions of acres of possible polt rearing habitat by paying for the implementation of poorly managed pine forest and invasive grasses that are of little use to turkeys just out of the egg in the name of erosion control and protecting water quality.
On the contrary, the drastic LOSS of CRP acreage in the midwest (think Kansas, Nebraska) is likely a major contributing factor to their turkey decline the past decade. Millions of acres of potential nesting/brood rearing habitat converted to ag.
At least in my area there wasn't a huge conversion out of CRP. My habitat is what the biologist I have been working with would call "ideal". Its almost void of birds. I went on a long 40 mile gravel bike ride the other day. I saw 4 different small hen groups. I saw no poults. I have no poults on my trail camera. I think something else (likely a combination of factors) is going on. The one big shift I have seen is small grains to corn/soybeans. However I am in the grasslands where they don't have access to that in my immediate area.
I'd could possibly be in your area you had good turkey production because the initiation of CRP in created good polt habitat as it grew in. I'm not sure of the practice in your area but I'm under the impression that most CRP in the prairie region wasn't planted and just allowed to go fallow and allow plants from the seed bank to grow. The original plants were most likely conducive to polt rearing like forbes and the like. Again I'm not sure but I'm under the impression that once entered into CRP the land owner is not allowed to touch it. Now 30 years later certain grasses have taken over and the CRP has grown too thick from lack of disturbance to be of any use to polts during the 1st few weeks. All conjecture on my part but it maybe something to look into.
Alot of it was planted. You can still see the rows where sericea contaminated my neighbors native grass seed. Mine was also planted with a mix the state approved.
Quote from: Roost 1 on July 15, 2023, 04:29:23 PM
CRP is supposed to be bushhogged every other year. Most people in my area bushhog strips every year alternating each year.
I feel like the decline of CRP in my area is one cause of the decline.
I think the preferred disturbances to promote polt habitat are burning and tilling. There needs to be room between the plant bases that allows polts to move freely. I don't think mowing does this and promotes the growth of grasses that grow too close together to be beneficial.
Quote from: nativeks on July 15, 2023, 04:36:39 PM
Quote from: Paulmyr on July 15, 2023, 03:37:18 PM
Quote from: nativeks on July 15, 2023, 02:47:28 PM
Quote from: deerhunt1988 on July 14, 2023, 10:07:34 AM
Quote from: Paulmyr on July 14, 2023, 01:36:00 AM
One of the biggest contributors to this decline seems to have been the introduction of CRP when the farm bill was signed in 1985. This program appears to be responsible for the desecration of millions of acres of possible polt rearing habitat by paying for the implementation of poorly managed pine forest and invasive grasses that are of little use to turkeys just out of the egg in the name of erosion control and protecting water quality.
On the contrary, the drastic LOSS of CRP acreage in the midwest (think Kansas, Nebraska) is likely a major contributing factor to their turkey decline the past decade. Millions of acres of potential nesting/brood rearing habitat converted to ag.
At least in my area there wasn't a huge conversion out of CRP. My habitat is what the biologist I have been working with would call "ideal". Its almost void of birds. I went on a long 40 mile gravel bike ride the other day. I saw 4 different small hen groups. I saw no poults. I have no poults on my trail camera. I think something else (likely a combination of factors) is going on. The one big shift I have seen is small grains to corn/soybeans. However I am in the grasslands where they don't have access to that in my immediate area.
I'd could possibly be in your area you had good turkey production because the initiation of CRP in created good polt habitat as it grew in. I'm not sure of the practice in your area but I'm under the impression that most CRP in the prairie region wasn't planted and just allowed to go fallow and allow plants from the seed bank to grow. The original plants were most likely conducive to polt rearing like forbes and the like. Again I'm not sure but I'm under the impression that once entered into CRP the land owner is not allowed to touch it. Now 30 years later certain grasses have taken over and the CRP has grown too thick from lack of disturbance to be of any use to polts during the 1st few weeks. All conjecture on my part but it maybe something to look into.
Alot of it was planted. You can still see the rows where sericea contaminated my neighbors native grass seed. Mine was also planted with a mix the state approved.
Have you guys been listening to The TFT Wild Turkey Science podcast. It's extremely informative. 6 of the last 15 or so episodes have concentrated on polt rearing habitat and changes in the landscape that most likely effected it. I'd highly recommend episodes 21,22,29,30,32, and the latest one episode 35 if you haven't listened already. I don't remember which episode but one gets into how many of the approved CRP plantings are detrimental to polt rearing habitat. Good for erosion control, not so good for turkey production.
CRP varies so widely from region to region that the program can not possibly have all positive or all negative effect across the US. Regionally there are probably CRP practices that impact turkeys, but in others it has very little if any effect. My family home farm is in CRP (250 acres ) and we had a choice of plantings and went with low grasses, clovers, wildflowers and legumes. Borders and fire lanes are usually legumes like clover or alfalfa in this area. You sign up on a 15 year rotation and there are mowing guidelines like roost said. Half the farm gets mowed every year then the other half. I have no idea how forest land CRP works, but in our region all CRP is in flood-planes and previously tilled farm land. 90% of it was never turkey habitat and if anything is true it has been used by turkeys only because it is now in CRP. Pheasants have prospered a lot from CRP land, so how do we choose which species gets managed for? In my area we are forested hills and big timber land and then river bottom farm land, very little in between. Our turkeys are not impacted by CRP is my observation. Yet many areas in this region are seeing decline as well. I believe you all, when you say it's an impact in your regions, but I doubt we can assume it's a broad sword cut across the land. More than likely our turkey dilemma is a case of death by a thousand cuts and that is what makes it so tough to diagnose or treat.
Oh yeah, just to stay on topic, if all fields were planted in tall grasses like much CRP land is then reaping would not be an argument, it would be impossible. So the fix is sign all open fields up into CRP and plant tall grasses.
Ive actually seen ground nesting birds etc respond favorably. Heck Ive got a pair of quail nesting within 30 yards of the house. Ive always got at least 1 covey now and some years 2. Ive got meadowlarks back, there are rabbits everywhere, etc. However turkeys have not responded favorably.
Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
How many acres do you have?
As "forum normal" these threads often take long turns from the original title. No problem just an observation. Down here (FL) there is another set aside program but the name is escaping me at the moment. We have limited access to some property that contains plenty of it. It appears to be working since the turkey/deer populations seem consistent in the 16+ years I've hunted there. Anything to stop the bulldozers is a good thing. Some programs, I'm sure, are better than others. Appreciate the enthusiasm (usually ::)) of some of you younger hunters. I do see you ending up being very frustrated now and in the years' ahead. This thread certainly shows this from both sides of the aisle. Good luck.
What's nice to see is there has been lots of things discussed on this thread. Like all long discussions that contain a lot of differing view points, there were contentious times throughout. The good news here is everyone hung in there, continuing to constructively participate. This is what separates this forum from the others, I'm confident we will all enjoy many more years of success. Be safe.....