https://www.oklahoman.com/story/sports/2021/06/06/oklahoma-wild-turkeys-under-gun-their-population-shrinks/7548380002/?itm_source=AMP&itm_medium=UpNext
It's not done yet. Lots of push and shove to go to two birds instead by a lot of people. I personally think it's a miss guided step and a knee jerk reaction.
Although it is not my fight personally, I have hunted Oklahoma numerous times in the past, including this past spring. From what I have seen and heard, I think something certainly needs to be done to help OK turkey population, at least in the western part of the state.
However, going to a statewide one-bird spring gobbler limit as the solution is questionable from a number of perspectives. The most obvious is the resentment that will create among the state's turkey hunters. Jumping from a three-gobbler limit just a couple of years ago to one is not going to sit well with sportsmen, I don't think. I do not believe it will be received well,...and I think non-compliance could be rampant.
In my opinion, there are a lot of options that would be much more acceptable. First, going to a two-bird limit would probably be more palatable. Oklahoma already has a one-bird-per-county and a one-bird-per-WMA limit. If that is not enough, the state could be split into larger hunting units (or regions) with a one-bird limit per unit but with a second bird allowed in another unit,...and with a two-bird season limit overall. Another option would be to have a split season timeframe where only one bird could be killed in each timeframe.
The most glaring fallacy in turkey management is the continuance of liberal fall either-sex hunting seasons in struggling turkey populations. The very first thing to be done (relating to hunting) is to curtail all either-sex hunting. Any time I see a state cutting spring gobbler hunting opportunity without eliminating either-sex hunting,...well, that just tells me they either don't know what they are doing,...or are bowing to "outside forces" beyond their control. Neither is acceptable.
Quote from: GobbleNut on June 15, 2021, 07:41:16 PM
The most glaring fallacy in turkey management is the continuance of liberal fall either-sex hunting seasons in struggling turkey populations. The very first thing to be done (relating to hunting) is to curtail all either-sex hunting. Any time I see a state cutting spring gobbler hunting opportunity without eliminating either-sex hunting,...well, that just tells me they either don't know what they are doing,...or are bowing to "outside forces" beyond their control. Neither is acceptable.
Absolutely correct, why would this not be the first step.
I can write a very long post about it but I will just say it is easier to ignore the obvious and lower limits.
When I got the survey in early May, it asked my opinion of pushing the season start back ten days, and my opinion of reducing the bag limit from 3 to 2. They didn't ask if we would be ok with reducing the limit from 3 to 1...
Quote from: GobbleNut on June 15, 2021, 07:41:16 PM
Although it is not my fight personally, I have hunted Oklahoma numerous times in the past, including this past spring. From what I have seen and heard, I think something certainly needs to be done to help OK turkey population, at least in the western part of the state.
However, going to a statewide one-bird spring gobbler limit as the solution is questionable from a number of perspectives. The most obvious is the resentment that will create among the state's turkey hunters. Jumping from a three-gobbler limit just a couple of years ago to one is not going to sit well with sportsmen, I don't think. I do not believe it will be received well,...and I think non-compliance could be rampant.
In my opinion, there are a lot of options that would be much more acceptable. First, going to a two-bird limit would probably be more palatable. Oklahoma already has a one-bird-per-county and a one-bird-per-WMA limit. If that is not enough, the state could be split into larger hunting units (or regions) with a one-bird limit per unit but with a second bird allowed in another unit,...and with a two-bird season limit overall. Another option would be to have a split season timeframe where only one bird could be killed in each timeframe.
The most glaring fallacy in turkey management is the continuance of liberal fall either-sex hunting seasons in struggling turkey populations. The very first thing to be done (relating to hunting) is to curtail all either-sex hunting. Any time I see a state cutting spring gobbler hunting opportunity without eliminating either-sex hunting,...well, that just tells me they either don't know what they are doing,...or are bowing to "outside forces" beyond their control. Neither is acceptable.
Maybe they don't see the fall hunting seasons with the lower harvests being a problem.
Declining turkey population , how can either sex hunting not be a problem . Changing regs with no research , no testing , not even offering any other ideas but take gobblers away and move a date . Clueless ? I don't believe the department even knows how to start to identify the real problems much less make logical decisions to correct the problems. If it was a fish kill or lower deer harvest they would be on it . This decline is several years in the making and this is all they have ?
Quote from: owlhoot on June 15, 2021, 09:05:39 PM
Quote from: GobbleNut on June 15, 2021, 07:41:16 PM
The most glaring fallacy in turkey management is the continuance of liberal fall either-sex hunting seasons in struggling turkey populations. The very first thing to be done (relating to hunting) is to curtail all either-sex hunting. Any time I see a state cutting spring gobbler hunting opportunity without eliminating either-sex hunting,...well, that just tells me they either don't know what they are doing,...or are bowing to "outside forces" beyond their control. Neither is acceptable.
Maybe they don't see the fall hunting seasons with the lower harvests being a problem.
Here's the deal. The overriding factor in wild turkey management is based on the fact that turkeys are polygamous. That is, a single (or a few) gobblers in a population will breed many hens. As long as you have enough breeding-age gobblers in an area to achieve full breeding of the hen population, there is no concern about gobbler numbers. Conclusion: in any turkey population where there is sustainable population recruitment (nesting success/poult survival to adulthood), there are going to be a significant percentage of gobblers that are going to be "surplus". We can remove those gobblers from the population without impacting the reproductive potential of that population.
In any turkey population that is in "critical decline", (that is, there is not sufficient population recruitment over time to for that population to sustain itself), without supplementing that population artificially (i.e....transplants), you are essentially relying on there being a turn-around in nesting success/poult survival to adulthood.
IF that is what you are relying on, you want to have as many adult, breeding-age hens in that population as you can so that when there is successful nesting/poult survival on a significant scale, that population will be able to rebound as quickly as possible. In essence, there are no "surplus" hens in those critically declining turkey populations. ALL of them should be protected.
That should be a pretty simple concept for wildlife managers to understand,...and those that do pretty quickly make the connection that reducing the harvest of "surplus" gobblers without protecting the remaining "non-surplus" hen population in that area is counterintuitive. Those two things go hand-in-hand.
Don't get me wrong here. Reducing spring gobbler harvest in an area MIGHT be necessary in populations where there are not enough remaining gobblers to achieve full "breeding saturation" of the hen population. But doing that without also protecting your hen population is nothing but pure folly and absolutely makes no sense biologically/scientifically.
cant hurt for the short term
Disease outbreak can and should make a state lower season limit abruptly. Oklahoma absolutely ???? % needs to go to 1 bird limit.
So if they reduce the bag limit to 1, and it doesn't work, what is the next step?
Because IMO, that's exactly what would happen. The population isn't going to rebound simply because the bag limit is reduced, without addressing the other factors that have contributed to the decline.
I guess at that point they will just cancel turkey hunting altogether.
Quote from: TonyTurk on June 17, 2021, 08:54:18 AM
So if they reduce the bag limit to 1, and it doesn't work, what is the next step?
Because IMO, that's exactly what would happen. The population isn't going to rebound simply because the bag limit is reduced, without addressing the other factors that have contributed to the decline.
I guess at that point they will just cancel turkey hunting altogether.
Exactly.
Its feels like that we all recognize there is a problem.. The State nor anyone one knows the actual cause but we have to do something so we will reduce the limit.
First off, I am not a wildlife biologist or wildlife expert, just a guy that lives/hunts western OK. I will go along with whatever they come up with in the way of rule changes (even if don't agree with them). Like gobblenut said, we should be protecting all hens all year. Secondly, reduce the yearly bag to (2) bearded toms, going to a one bird limit I think is too much. From what I have observed, I believe the biggest part of the problem is predation and weather. I have coyotes come to my calling every year, I have shot several. I have killed two in my yard where I live, one while running a riding mower. We have good numbers of bobcats, not to mention all the nest robbers in the woods. Until we can achieve about 3 good hatchs in a row, our numbers will probably stay down from what we experienced years ago. I notice years when we see very few jakes, or none at all.
Will these rule changes fix our problem? I kind of doubt they will, they may help. At least the ODWC is finally publicly recognizing what hunters have noticed for several years now. I think the biggest thing is recruitment in maintaining good populations of birds. I see hens this time of year by themselves, or with one or two poults. I did see one a couple of weeks ago that had 6 or 7 with her. Thank you for your time.
What always baffles me about turkey hunters is the unwillingness to accept change. We can all see turkey numbers plumetting, but heaven forbid anybody try to do anything to attempt to protect the resource that folks supposedly care so much about. Will lowering the bag limit reverse the trend? Doubtful. It can however make wherever the floor ends up being a little bit higher. We have seen how high the ceiling can be, we don't know how low the floor can be yet.
On a side note:
The KS biologist tried to get the killing of hens stopped in the fall. One commissioner that is a devout fall hunter argued the 1700 hens killed in the fall doesn't matter. Biologist argued that in a declining population the value of the hen is much higher than in an increasing population. Hunters, other biologists, etc stood up and begged him to listen to biologists and implement the management plan they had come up with decades earlier. The commissioner filibustered it. Ultimately ended up with a reduced fall season and bag limit.
Quote from: GobbleNut on June 16, 2021, 08:54:13 AM
Quote from: owlhoot on June 15, 2021, 09:05:39 PM
Quote from: GobbleNut on June 15, 2021, 07:41:16 PM
The most glaring fallacy in turkey management is the continuance of liberal fall either-sex hunting seasons in struggling turkey populations. The very first thing to be done (relating to hunting) is to curtail all either-sex hunting. Any time I see a state cutting spring gobbler hunting opportunity without eliminating either-sex hunting,...well, that just tells me they either don't know what they are doing,...or are bowing to "outside forces" beyond their control. Neither is acceptable.
Maybe they don't see the fall hunting seasons with the lower harvests being a problem.
Here's the deal. The overriding factor in wild turkey management is based on the fact that turkeys are polygamous. That is, a single (or a few) gobblers in a population will breed many hens. As long as you have enough breeding-age gobblers in an area to achieve full breeding of the hen population, there is no concern about gobbler numbers. Conclusion: in any turkey population where there is sustainable population recruitment (nesting success/poult survival to adulthood), there are going to be a significant percentage of gobblers that are going to be "surplus". We can remove those gobblers from the population without impacting the reproductive potential of that population.
In any turkey population that is in "critical decline", (that is, there is not sufficient population recruitment over time to for that population to sustain itself), without supplementing that population artificially (i.e....transplants), you are essentially relying on there being a turn-around in nesting success/poult survival to adulthood.
IF that is what you are relying on, you want to have as many adult, breeding-age hens in that population as you can so that when there is successful nesting/poult survival on a significant scale, that population will be able to rebound as quickly as possible. In essence, there are no "surplus" hens in those critically declining turkey populations. ALL of them should be protected.
That should be a pretty simple concept for wildlife managers to understand,...and those that do pretty quickly make the connection that reducing the harvest of "surplus" gobblers without protecting the remaining "non-surplus" hen population in that area is counterintuitive. Those two things go hand-in-hand.
Don't get me wrong here. Reducing spring gobbler harvest in an area MIGHT be necessary in populations where there are not enough remaining gobblers to achieve full "breeding saturation" of the hen population. But doing that without also protecting your hen population is nothing but pure folly and absolutely makes no sense biologically/scientifically.
definitely agree with that.
Here is the deal. I sent an email to the director in Missouri. I received a response from the deputy director.
I asked about closing fall season, no hens should be shot.
Here is what he said.
The turkey population would not substantially increase in abundance and would continue to decline in some areas. Therefore , more conservative fall regulations would contribute to fewer hunting opportunities without having the desired effect on turkey abundance.
Now get this one.
They want to go all day hunting in the SPRING (last 2 weeks of season) to double hunting opportunity. He said it is not likely to contribute substantially to overall harvest.
Learn about wild turkeys and MDC management efforts June 29 through MDC Wild Webcast.
The late Dwain Bland from Enid Oklahoma would definitely put a hurting on anyone attempting to Turkey Poach on his Oklahoma Lease!
Quote from: owlhoot on June 18, 2021, 12:06:28 AM
I sent an email to the director in Missouri. I received a response from the deputy director.
I asked about closing fall season, no hens should be shot.
Here is what he said.
The turkey population would not substantially increase in abundance and would continue to decline in some areas. Therefore , more conservative fall regulations would contribute to fewer hunting opportunities without having the desired effect on turkey abundance.
Now get this one.
They want to go all day hunting in the SPRING (last 2 weeks of season) to double hunting opportunity. He said it is not likely to contribute substantially to overall harvest.
Point One: Unless hunting regulations in any state are completely "out of whack" with (turkey) population recruitment,...that is, the limits and seasons are so liberal that reproductive success cannot keep up, even if the turkey population is reproducing with some level of success, hunting has very little impact on turkey population stability.
Point Two: Turkey population declines are (almost) invariably the result of factors other than human hunting, either in the spring or fall.
Point Three: Reducing spring gobbler hunting opportunity for "surplus" male turkeys without reducing or eliminating either sex hunting for hen turkeys is logically/biologically flawed reasoning. Increasingly limiting spring gobbler hunting without correspondingly protecting the hen population is "backasswords" turkey management. Period.
...There are more "Points" to be made, but I'll leave it at that for now.... ;D
Quote from: GobbleNut on June 15, 2021, 07:41:16 PM
The most glaring fallacy in turkey management is the continuance of liberal fall either-sex hunting seasons in struggling turkey populations. The very first thing to be done (relating to hunting) is to curtail all either-sex hunting. Any time I see a state cutting spring gobbler hunting opportunity without eliminating either-sex hunting,...well, that just tells me they either don't know what they are doing,...or are bowing to "outside forces" beyond their control. Neither is acceptable.
I don't think the problem is harvesting of hens. Lord knows there's more than enough hens on the landscape, they're just not producing the poult numbers to sustain the population. Maybe it's because the dominant gobblers are being killed before they can breed the hens per Chamberlain's studies? The small fall harvest numbers are insignificant in the total spring/fall harvest and that's why many states don't, and shouldn't, do away with it.
I applaud Oklahoma wildlife Department for their willingness to try something to turn the ship around. In my state we dont ever change anything. Looks to me like the problem is simple math, there are too many more hunters than turkeys. If that is the case they cant just sit back and let an army of hunters decimate a shrinking population of turkeys.
Quote from: simpzenith on June 18, 2021, 09:45:37 AM
Quote from: GobbleNut on June 15, 2021, 07:41:16 PM
The most glaring fallacy in turkey management is the continuance of liberal fall either-sex hunting seasons in struggling turkey populations. The very first thing to be done (relating to hunting) is to curtail all either-sex hunting. Any time I see a state cutting spring gobbler hunting opportunity without eliminating either-sex hunting,...well, that just tells me they either don't know what they are doing,...or are bowing to "outside forces" beyond their control. Neither is acceptable.
I don't think the problem is harvesting of hens. Lord knows there's more than enough hens on the landscape, they're just not producing the poult numbers to sustain the population. Maybe it's because the dominant gobblers are being killed before they can breed the hens per Chamberlain's studies? The small fall harvest numbers are insignificant in the total spring/fall harvest and that's why many states don't, and shouldn't, do away with it.
First of all, I agree entirely that MANY states have no problem with either-sex fall harvest, and the overall problem is fundamentally based in reproductive failure. Solving that problem is the real key, and it is rarely, if ever, associated with hunting. But again, in critically declining turkey populations,...those that are experiencing chronic, long term failure in nesting success,...the idea that the remaining gobbler population needs to be protected but the remaining hen segment of the population doesn't,...well, that is nonsense. Those two management strategies go hand in hand.
The math is pretty simple really. Hens lay eggs,...gobblers do not (duhhh!...I must have stayed at a Motel 6 last night... ;D). Let's say you have a group of turkeys with ten hens and one gobbler (or however many gobblers you want to throw in there). At a dozen eggs per hen, your reproductive potential for that group of turkeys in 120 poults per year. (as an exercise, run that number out over a period of several years)
Now turn that ratio around. You have one hen and ten gobblers. Your reproductive potential is 12 poults per year. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand how the hen to gobbler ratio impacts the ability of a turkey population to recover from those years of reproductive failure.
In critically declining turkey populations, killing your hens is EXPONENTIALLY decreasing the ability of that flock of turkeys to recover IF AND WHEN you finally have a successful nesting season.
And finally, turkey hunters need to understand that concept and adjust their blood lust accordingly.
Quote from: Crghss on June 15, 2021, 07:47:34 PM
Quote from: GobbleNut on June 15, 2021, 07:41:16 PM
The most glaring fallacy in turkey management is the continuance of liberal fall either-sex hunting seasons in struggling turkey populations. The very first thing to be done (relating to hunting) is to curtail all either-sex hunting. Any time I see a state cutting spring gobbler hunting opportunity without eliminating either-sex hunting,...well, that just tells me they either don't know what they are doing,...or are bowing to "outside forces" beyond their control. Neither is acceptable.
Absolutely correct, why would this not be the first step.
I have said it here and other places before and will say it again, killing a hen is killing the future and makes no sense to me whatsoever. I plan to hunt OK in the future, hope that the numbers go up but do not see that happening in any state that allows the killing of the ones that lay the eggs.
Quote from: GobbleNut on June 18, 2021, 11:21:17 AM
Quote from: simpzenith on June 18, 2021, 09:45:37 AM
Quote from: GobbleNut on June 15, 2021, 07:41:16 PM
The most glaring fallacy in turkey management is the continuance of liberal fall either-sex hunting seasons in struggling turkey populations. The very first thing to be done (relating to hunting) is to curtail all either-sex hunting. Any time I see a state cutting spring gobbler hunting opportunity without eliminating either-sex hunting,...well, that just tells me they either don't know what they are doing,...or are bowing to "outside forces" beyond their control. Neither is acceptable.
I don't think the problem is harvesting of hens. Lord knows there's more than enough hens on the landscape, they're just not producing the poult numbers to sustain the population. Maybe it's because the dominant gobblers are being killed before they can breed the hens per Chamberlain's studies? The small fall harvest numbers are insignificant in the total spring/fall harvest and that's why many states don't, and shouldn't, do away with it.
First of all, I agree entirely that MANY states have no problem with either-sex fall harvest, and the overall problem is fundamentally based in reproductive failure. Solving that problem is the real key, and it is rarely, if ever, associated with hunting. But again, in critically declining turkey populations,...those that are experiencing chronic, long term failure in nesting success,...the idea that the remaining gobbler population needs to be protected but the remaining hen segment of the population doesn't,...well, that is nonsense. Those two management strategies go hand in hand.
The math is pretty simple really. Hens lay eggs,...gobblers do not (duhhh!...I must have stayed at a Motel 6 last night... ;D). Let's say you have a group of turkeys with ten hens and one gobbler (or however many gobblers you want to throw in there). At a dozen eggs per hen, your reproductive potential for that group of turkeys in 120 poults per year. (as an exercise, run that number out over a period of several years)
Now turn that ratio around. You have one hen and ten gobblers. Your reproductive potential is 12 poults per year. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand how the hen to gobbler ratio impacts the ability of a turkey population to recover from those years of reproductive failure.
In critically declining turkey populations, killing your hens is EXPONENTIALLY decreasing the ability of that flock of turkeys to recover IF AND WHEN you finally have a successful nesting season.
And finally, turkey hunters need to understand that concept and adjust their blood lust accordingly.
You left out the most likely scenario: Nine hens and no gobblers
https://www.wildlifedepartment.com/sites/default/files/Interim%20Report%20W-190-R-2%20GHS%20F19AF00796.pdf
Interesting historic information on these pages.
https://extension.okstate.edu/fact-sheets/print-publications/e/ecology-and-management-of-the-rio-grande-wild-turkey-in-oklahoma-e-1045.pdf
Here is another good informational read from OK. Both only take a few minutes to read. Both full of information.
If nesting continues to be poor they will be forced to suspend Fall hunting. Maybe not this fall, but very shortly in the near future.
In speaking of the documents I pasted on here above: I found interest in the amount of hunters surveyed that used the public land. It doesn't surprise me, as I am sure it would be similar if surveying residents in WV about public land usage. I am sure most Non Residents don't do the survey, which is primarily what we can hunt if hunting without a guide.
Also take note of the successful % of hens nesting. To add to this, I was told by a OK turkey biologist that poults were down to .88 per hen surveyed. That's not many new turkeys on the ground at the end of the year. Especially considering the harvest numbers!
For all you guys railing against the killing of hens - I looked up the fall harvest numbers for all 77 counties in Oklahoma.
I don't know when Oklahoma's fall season was in 2020, so I put the dates for my fall harvest numbers from September 1st, 2020 to
December 31st, 2020 in Oklahoma's website.
Between both archery and gun seasons, there were 252 gobblers and
109 hens taken. 179 gobblers and 99 hens were taken with archery
equipment. 73 gobblers and 10 hens were taken with firearms.
I think you're fooling yourself if you think saving 109 hens over a whole
state is going to make that big of a difference. Yeah, you can argue that
every hen helps and no one can disagree with that, but in the grand
scheme of things it means little to nothing.
I don't know much about Oklahoma, so if I'm missing something let
me know.
Their data is hard to weed through, but Jim's response is wrong. Sorry Jim, don't mean to be so blunt, but the facts are the facts.
I have all that info posted their for the last several years, just open the links. Only takes a minute to see, and yes it would add up to some turkeys.
4878 fall turkeys were killed in Oklahoma in 2019. Slightly higher than their 10 year average, charts do not show 2020 data.
Quote from: WV Flopper on June 18, 2021, 01:46:00 PM
4878 fall turkeys were killed in Oklahoma in 2019. Slightly higher than their 10 year average, charts do not show 2020 data.
I think you're wrong. You are looking at harvest estimates based on
2,447 licensed hunters of which only 1,402 actually hunted.
I'm looking at actual harvest numbers by county for all 77 counties.
I'm not looking at an estimate.
I will agree, it is obvious you and I are looking at two different things, as I said their data....
Table A4 is an "Estimate", I did believe it to be factual. My mistake, but can their low number of 2298 be that far off? Their survey base is too small!
Every one of our states should require checking in turkeys and all big game for that matter. These guesses, are just that, a guess. The state biologist need hard numbers to work with, for all game.
Jim, I apologize. I can not say you are wrong.
Quote from: WV Flopper on June 18, 2021, 02:05:40 PM
I will agree, it is obvious you and I are looking at two different things, as I said their data....
Table A4 is an "Estimate", I did believe it to be factual. My mistake, but can their low number of 2298 be that far off? Their survey base is too small!
Every one of our states should require checking in turkeys and all big game for that matter. These guesses, are just that, a guess. The state biologist need hard numbers to work with, for all game.
Jim, I apologize. I can not say you are wrong.
Hey WV - go to hunterstoolbox.gooutdoorsoklahoma.com
and then click on county harvest numbers. That's what I was looking at.
I don't know if it's right but it appears to be the state harvest numbers.
There are 2 pages of counties. You also have to put in dates for the
seasons. I put Sept 1 2020 to Dec 31 2020. Then select all counties.
I know from a half asse, half witted person, me, that their (OK) numbers are wrong. There are to many holes in those numbers to be correct!
I would like to say again, what I observed in OK this spring. "I seen more males than females."
If you are just a bit smarter than the half wit I am, you can see the issue here with new recruitment of turkeys. I have only hunted turkeys for 32 years now, I can tell you that's not the ratio you want, if you want to sustain or grow a population!
Quote from: WV Flopper on June 18, 2021, 05:11:30 PM
I know from a half asse, half witted person, me, that their (OK) numbers are wrong. There are to many holes in those numbers to be correct!
I would like to say again, what I observed in OK this spring. "I seen more males than females."
If you are just a bit smarter than the half wit I am, you can see the issue here with new recruitment of turkeys. I have only hunted turkeys for 32 years now, I can tell you that's not the ratio you want, if you want to sustain or grow a population!
Like I said, I don't know if those numbers are right. I was just stating
that if they are right eliminating fall hunting ain't gonna help.
Those numbers look low to me but I can't find any other stats.
Quote from: Jimspur on June 18, 2021, 05:27:14 PM
Quote from: WV Flopper on June 18, 2021, 05:11:30 PM
I know from a half asse, half witted person, me, that their (OK) numbers are wrong. There are to many holes in those numbers to be correct!
I would like to say again, what I observed in OK this spring. "I seen more males than females."
If you are just a bit smarter than the half wit I am, you can see the issue here with new recruitment of turkeys. I have only hunted turkeys for 32 years now, I can tell you that's not the ratio you want, if you want to sustain or grow a population!
Like I said, I don't know if those numbers are right. I was just stating
that if they are right eliminating fall hunting ain't gonna help.
Those numbers look low to me but I can't find any other stats.
It may depend on if your short sighted or long sighted on whether you think not shooting hens might help or not. Most likely won't have a dramatic effect next couple years. Over the next 20 years or more my guess it will have an effect.
Quote from: Paulmyr on June 18, 2021, 06:13:35 PM
Quote from: Jimspur on June 18, 2021, 05:27:14 PM
Quote from: WV Flopper on June 18, 2021, 05:11:30 PM
I know from a half asse, half witted person, me, that their (OK) numbers are wrong. There are to many holes in those numbers to be correct!
I would like to say again, what I observed in OK this spring. "I seen more males than females."
If you are just a bit smarter than the half wit I am, you can see the issue here with new recruitment of turkeys. I have only hunted turkeys for 32 years now, I can tell you that's not the ratio you want, if you want to sustain or grow a population!
Like I said, I don't know if those numbers are right. I was just stating
that if they are right eliminating fall hunting ain't gonna help.
Those numbers look low to me but I can't find any other stats.
It may depend on if your short sighted or long sighted on whether you think not shooting hens might help or not. Most likely won't have a dramatic effect next couple years. Over the next 20 years or more my guess it will have an effect.
So you think 109 hens in a whole state, where half of the hens are
gonna lose their nest anyway, and the other 55 hens are gonna
average .88 poults per hen is gonna make a difference.
I don't care how you're sighted - that ain't gonna right the ship.
Trust me when I tell you a one bird limit is not the solution to nest predators and poult habitat. The captain of the ship is just spinning the wheel trying to look busy and not accomplishing anything.
Quote from: Gooserbat on June 18, 2021, 08:53:36 PM
Trust me when I tell you a one bird limit is not the solution to nest predators and poult habitat. The captain of the ship is just spinning the wheel trying to look busy and not accomplishing anything.
I agree with you 100% that reducing the bag limit is not going to help
anything. I also believe that stopping the shooting of hens is not going
to accomplish anything in Oklahoma either.
Accomplishments:
Objective 1: A sample of 2,447 license holders was interviewed during February 2019. Seven
hundred and nine individuals interviewed did not hunt during 2019. One thousand four hundred
and two did hunt. Deer season was most popular with hunters. Statewide harvest estimates
increased from 2018 estimates for crow, dove, pheasant, cottontail rabbits, swamp rabbits, fox
squirrels, gray squirrels, fall turkey, woodcock, coyote, bobcat, raccoon, beaver, and otters.
Harvest estimates decreased from 2018 estimates for jackrabbits, spring turkey gray fox, quail
and red fox. Prairie chicken season remained closed during 2019. Harvest estimates for most
species were calculated statewide and for all public lands open to hunting. The limitations of the
harvest estimates were discussed in detail. Human dimensions questions pertained to controlled
hunts participation, public land regulation preferences, ODWC spending preferences, recruitment
activity and access to internet in the home.
Abstract:
The Oklahoma Department of Wildlife Conservation (ODWC) has conducted telephone surveys
since 1986 to estimate the number of hunters and game harvest statewide and regionally. A
sample of hunting license holders (n = 2,447) was interviewed during February 2019. Sixty-six
percent of individuals interviewed hunted during 2019. Hunter and game harvest estimates and
statistics were calculated statewide. Deer (Odocoileus virginianus and O. hemionus) season was
most popular with hunters. Statewide harvest estimates for 2019 increased from 2018 estimates
for pheasant (Phasianus colchicus), dove (Zenaida macroura), swamp rabbit (S. aquaticus), fall
turkey (Meleagris gallopavo silvestris and M. g. intermedia), woodcock (Scolopax minor),
raccoon (Procyon lotor), bobcat (Lynx rufus), beaver (Castor canadensis), river otter (Lutra
canadensis), crow (Corvus brachyrhynchos), cottontail (Sylvilagus floridanus), fox squirrel
(Sciurus ), gray squirrel (S. carolinensis), , and coyote (Canis latrans). Harvest estimates
Quote from: Jimspur on June 18, 2021, 01:52:29 PM
Quote from: WV Flopper on June 18, 2021, 01:46:00 PM
4878 fall turkeys were killed in Oklahoma in 2019. Slightly higher than their 10 year average, charts do not show 2020 data.
I think you're wrong. You are looking at harvest estimates based on
2,447 licensed hunters of which only 1,402 actually hunted.
I'm looking at actual harvest numbers by county for all 77 counties.
I'm not looking at an estimate.
So for this to be right , your saying that 1402 hunted and killed 4878 turkey in the fall. That would be one heck of a success rate estimate.
How about an all of the above as far as solutions go. If you guys think this problems is going to turn around in a few years l got news for you. It took 40 years for the reintroduction of turkeys to get to boom levels of 15 years ago. Stop shooting hens, stop shooting dominant toms before breeding, limit the number of toms that can be taken during the season, predator control, better habitat,. Stop the downward spiral and than maybe you can think about rehabilitation.
All I hear on here is me, me, me, your limiting my opprotunities. Damn right they are how else do you think things might change. The rehabilitation of the wild turkey didn't happen because everybody and thier brother was out running across America trampling through the woods during spring breeding and nesting, shooting all the turkeys they possibly could spring or fall. That's what happened during the original downfall. Mine, mine, mine! Open your eyes people. The areas that need help are going to have to sacrifice. Predators, that problem isn't going away anytime soon. Do what you can if you can and it may help. Habitat, expanding populations across the world aren't going to help that one. The one area that wildlife managers can hopefully influence these down turns is hunter participation and mortality whether caused directly by shooting birds or indirectly by disrupting breeding cycles. People are crying out that something needs to be done. When they try people start bitching! What would you have them do? Should they go to Weyerhauser and tell them the pine plantations that you grow for the wood that builds houses across the world need to be managed for turkeys and not pine trees? Are they supposed to go to NY fashion shows and tell them fur is in again?
30 some years ago I spent a spring in Northern Ga. Took me almost 3 weeks of hunting everyday before I heard my 1st gobble. The yearly trips after that seen the population slowly increase before I had to stop going down there. This year I returned for the 1st time in 20 years and there were more birds gobbling by far than anything I heard in the 90's. Population decrease? Damn you guys are spoiled! I keep hearing that turkey populations started to decline with the collapse in the fur market. I wonder what happened about the same time? The dramatic increase in the number of turkey hunters storming through the woods. Not just local turkey hunters, hunters that travel across the country taking 3,5,10 birds a season.Time for some people to suck it up and realized this is a finite resource. Stomping through the woods and spooking hens off nests has an effect, shooting dominant toms before peak breeding has an effect, shooting hens has an effect.
Quote from: owlhoot on June 18, 2021, 10:33:18 PM
Quote from: Jimspur on June 18, 2021, 01:52:29 PM
Quote from: WV Flopper on June 18, 2021, 01:46:00 PM
4878 fall turkeys were killed in Oklahoma in 2019. Slightly higher than their 10 year average, charts do not show 2020 data.
I think you're wrong. You are looking at harvest estimates based on
2,447 licensed hunters of which only 1,402 actually hunted.
I'm looking at actual harvest numbers by county for all 77 counties.
I'm not looking at an estimate.
So for this to be right , your saying that 1402 hunted and killed 4878 turkey in the fall. That would be one heck of a success rate estimate.
No - that's not what were saying. If you read the link that WV provided,
the state of Oklahoma attempted to contact 5,954 hunters. They were
only able to get interviews completed for 2,447 hunters. Of those 2,447
hunters who had a license and were interviewed, 1,402 hunters actually
hunted. So not everyone who bought a license actually went hunting.
This is a sample of the total number of hunters and they are basing their
harvest "estimates" on the info received from these 1,402 hunters.
There is obviously a lot more hunters in Oklahoma than this, but they're
estimating their harvest on this small sample size.
If you read the link that WV provided it will make more sense.
Quote from: Jimspur on June 18, 2021, 10:49:52 PM
Quote from: owlhoot on June 18, 2021, 10:33:18 PM
Quote from: Jimspur on June 18, 2021, 01:52:29 PM
Quote from: WV Flopper on June 18, 2021, 01:46:00 PM
4878 fall turkeys were killed in Oklahoma in 2019. Slightly higher than their 10 year average, charts do not show 2020 data.
I think you're wrong. You are looking at harvest estimates based on
2,447 licensed hunters of which only 1,402 actually hunted.
I'm looking at actual harvest numbers by county for all 77 counties.
I'm not looking at an estimate.
So for this to be right , your saying that 1402 hunted and killed 4878 turkey in the fall. That would be one heck of a success rate estimate.
No - that's not what were saying. If you read the link that WV provided,
the state of Oklahoma attempted to contact 5,954 hunters. They were
only able to get interviews completed for 2,447 hunters. Of those 2,447
hunters who had a license and were interviewed, 1,402 hunters actually
hunted. So not everyone who bought a license actually went hunting.
This is a sample of the total number of hunters and they are basing their
harvest "estimates" on the info received from these 1,402 hunters.
There is obviously a lot more hunters in Oklahoma than this, but they're
estimating their harvest on this small sample size.
If you read the link that WV provided it will make more sense.
Got it. Maybe. So the 1402 who provided information killed 109 fall turkey. And then they used that to estimate 4878 turkey kill using the estimated amount of all turkey hunters in the state.
Quote from: owlhoot on June 18, 2021, 11:02:32 PM
Quote from: Jimspur on June 18, 2021, 10:49:52 PM
Quote from: owlhoot on June 18, 2021, 10:33:18 PM
Quote from: Jimspur on June 18, 2021, 01:52:29 PM
Quote from: WV Flopper on June 18, 2021, 01:46:00 PM
4878 fall turkeys were killed in Oklahoma in 2019. Slightly higher than their 10 year average, charts do not show 2020 data.
I think you're wrong. You are looking at harvest estimates based on
2,447 licensed hunters of which only 1,402 actually hunted.
I'm looking at actual harvest numbers by county for all 77 counties.
I'm not looking at an estimate.
So for this to be right , your saying that 1402 hunted and killed 4878 turkey in the fall. That would be one heck of a success rate estimate.
No - that's not what were saying. If you read the link that WV provided,
the state of Oklahoma attempted to contact 5,954 hunters. They were
only able to get interviews completed for 2,447 hunters. Of those 2,447
hunters who had a license and were interviewed, 1,402 hunters actually
hunted. So not everyone who bought a license actually went hunting.
This is a sample of the total number of hunters and they are basing their
harvest "estimates" on the info received from these 1,402 hunters.
There is obviously a lot more hunters in Oklahoma than this, but they're
estimating their harvest on this small sample size.
If you read the link that WV provided it will make more sense.
Got it. Maybe. So the 1402 who provided information killed 109 fall turkey. And then they used that to estimate 4878 turkey kill using the estimated amount of all turkey hunters in the state.
No - the 109 hens that were killed were the ones that were on the
Oklahoma harvest report for all hunters from Sep 1 2020 to Dec 31 2020.
That's why I'm saying the 4,878 birds looks like a bogus number.
I'm looking at actual numbers not estimated numbers.
I can only go off the info that I can find. If anybody here lives in
Oklahoma and has some different numbers please post them up.
Owlhoot - look at my previous posts in this thread and go to the site I
mentioned and you can find the same info I found.
Quote from: Jimspur on June 18, 2021, 11:17:18 PM
Quote from: owlhoot on June 18, 2021, 11:02:32 PM
Quote from: Jimspur on June 18, 2021, 10:49:52 PM
Quote from: owlhoot on June 18, 2021, 10:33:18 PM
Quote from: Jimspur on June 18, 2021, 01:52:29 PM
Quote from: WV Flopper on June 18, 2021, 01:46:00 PM
4878 fall turkeys were killed in Oklahoma in 2019. Slightly higher than their 10 year average, charts do not show 2020 data.
I think you're wrong. You are looking at harvest estimates based on
2,447 licensed hunters of which only 1,402 actually hunted.
I'm looking at actual harvest numbers by county for all 77 counties.
I'm not looking at an estimate.
So for this to be right , your saying that 1402 hunted and killed 4878 turkey in the fall. That would be one heck of a success rate estimate.
No - that's not what were saying. If you read the link that WV provided,
the state of Oklahoma attempted to contact 5,954 hunters. They were
only able to get interviews completed for 2,447 hunters. Of those 2,447
hunters who had a license and were interviewed, 1,402 hunters actually
hunted. So not everyone who bought a license actually went hunting.
This is a sample of the total number of hunters and they are basing their
harvest "estimates" on the info received from these 1,402 hunters.
There is obviously a lot more hunters in Oklahoma than this, but they're
estimating their harvest on this small sample size.
If you read the link that WV provided it will make more sense.
Got it. Maybe. So the 1402 who provided information killed 109 fall turkey. And then they used that to estimate 4878 turkey kill using the estimated amount of all turkey hunters in the state.
No - the 109 hens that were killed were the ones that were on the
Oklahoma harvest report for all hunters from Sep 1 2020 to Dec 31 2020.
That's why I'm saying the 4,878 birds looks like a bogus number.
I'm looking at actual numbers not estimated numbers.
I can only go off the info that I can find. If anybody here lives in
Oklahoma and has some different numbers please post them up.
Owlhoot - look at my previous posts in this thread and go to the site I
mentioned and you can find the same info I found.
Alrighty . will get after it tomorrow. 44 hrs -3 hrs sleep I'm out for now , have a good one.
Quote from: Jimspur on June 18, 2021, 01:26:40 PM
For all you guys railing against the killing of hens - I looked up the fall harvest numbers for all 77 counties in Oklahoma.
I don't know when Oklahoma's fall season was in 2020, so I put the dates for my fall harvest numbers from September 1st, 2020 to
December 31st, 2020 in Oklahoma's website.
Between both archery and gun seasons, there were 252 gobblers and
109 hens taken. 179 gobblers and 99 hens were taken with archery
equipment. 73 gobblers and 10 hens were taken with firearms.
I think you're fooling yourself if you think saving 109 hens over a whole
state is going to make that big of a difference. Yeah, you can argue that
every hen helps and no one can disagree with that, but in the grand
scheme of things it means little to nothing.
I don't know much about Oklahoma, so if I'm missing something let
me know.
109 hens lay a clutch of eggs, say two survive from each clutch 109 x 2 = 218 now say they go one to lay a clutch each (Just for arguments sake we will say they were all hens) 218 got one to lay clutches and 2 from those survive 218 x 2 = 436 more hen (again just for arguments sake) those 436 go on to lay clutches and they have 2 survive so 436 x 2 = 872 now they go on to have 2 survive from each clutch 1744 now imagine if that is done over a 10 year period each time multiplying by two, that is a lot of turkey over time if they eliminate hunting hens. Of course the flock on the next block had better have a bunch of jakes. lol
Quote from: Sir-diealot on June 19, 2021, 11:48:57 AM
Quote from: Jimspur on June 18, 2021, 01:26:40 PM
For all you guys railing against the killing of hens - I looked up the fall harvest numbers for all 77 counties in Oklahoma.
I don't know when Oklahoma's fall season was in 2020, so I put the dates for my fall harvest numbers from September 1st, 2020 to
December 31st, 2020 in Oklahoma's website.
Between both archery and gun seasons, there were 252 gobblers and
109 hens taken. 179 gobblers and 99 hens were taken with archery
equipment. 73 gobblers and 10 hens were taken with firearms.
I think you're fooling yourself if you think saving 109 hens over a whole
state is going to make that big of a difference. Yeah, you can argue that
every hen helps and no one can disagree with that, but in the grand
scheme of things it means little to nothing.
I don't know much about Oklahoma, so if I'm missing something let
me know.
109 hens lay a clutch of eggs, say two survive from each clutch 109 x 2 = 218 now say they go one to lay a clutch each (Just for arguments sake we will say they were all hens) 218 got one to lay clutches and 2 from those survive 218 x 2 = 436 more hen (again just for arguments sake) those 436 go on to lay clutches and they have 2 survive so 436 x 2 = 872 now they go on to have 2 survive from each clutch 1744 now imagine if that is done over a 10 year period each time multiplying by two, that is a lot of turkey over time if they eliminate hunting hens. Of course the flock on the next block had better have a bunch of jakes. lol
Theory sounds a lot better than reality. The reality is that half of them won't have any poults, and we'll say the ones that do have 2 poults. So if you take 55 hens at 2 poults each that's 110 more turkeys, of which half are gobblers. This is in an entire state of 77 counties.
I'm sorry, but that comes out to an extra .71 hens/county and an extra
.71 gobblers/county.
While I can't argue that every hen helps, I can argue that that's not
going to be nearly enough to right the ship.
Quote from: Jimspur on June 19, 2021, 12:24:39 PM
Quote from: Sir-diealot on June 19, 2021, 11:48:57 AM
Quote from: Jimspur on June 18, 2021, 01:26:40 PM
For all you guys railing against the killing of hens - I looked up the fall harvest numbers for all 77 counties in Oklahoma.
I don't know when Oklahoma's fall season was in 2020, so I put the dates for my fall harvest numbers from September 1st, 2020 to
December 31st, 2020 in Oklahoma's website.
Between both archery and gun seasons, there were 252 gobblers and
109 hens taken. 179 gobblers and 99 hens were taken with archery
equipment. 73 gobblers and 10 hens were taken with firearms.
I think you're fooling yourself if you think saving 109 hens over a whole
state is going to make that big of a difference. Yeah, you can argue that
every hen helps and no one can disagree with that, but in the grand
scheme of things it means little to nothing.
I don't know much about Oklahoma, so if I'm missing something let
me know.
109 hens lay a clutch of eggs, say two survive from each clutch 109 x 2 = 218 now say they go one to lay a clutch each (Just for arguments sake we will say they were all hens) 218 got one to lay clutches and 2 from those survive 218 x 2 = 436 more hen (again just for arguments sake) those 436 go on to lay clutches and they have 2 survive so 436 x 2 = 872 now they go on to have 2 survive from each clutch 1744 now imagine if that is done over a 10 year period each time multiplying by two, that is a lot of turkey over time if they eliminate hunting hens. Of course the flock on the next block had better have a bunch of jakes. lol
Theory sounds a lot better than reality. The reality is that half of them won't have any poults, and we'll say the ones that do have 2 poults. So if you take 55 hens at 2 poults each that's 110 more turkeys, of which half are gobblers. This is in an entire state of 77 counties.
I'm sorry, but that comes out to an extra .71 hens/county and an extra
.71 gobblers/county.
While I can't argue that every hen helps, I can argue that that's not
going to be nearly enough to right the ship.
Actually if I understood the program right on Meateater Chamberlain said that only 20% of all hatched eggs are male. I may have misunderstood that but I do not think so. Also I did say "Just for arguments sake we will say they were all hens" I am horrible at math by the way so my numbers there may have been off.
I have always heard that the gobbler/hen ratio was 50/50.
I'll check into it.
Quote from: Jimspur on June 19, 2021, 12:38:57 PM
I have always heard that the gobbler/hen ratio was 50/50.
I'll check into it.
This is the program, if I misunderstood something don't feel bad about pointing it out to me, that is how we learn. https://www.themeateater.com/listen/meateater/ep-214-gobbling-your--off
Couldn't bear to read every post in this thread word for word, but anyone who thinks there's any correlation between reality and harvest numbers in Oklahoma or many other locales is delusional. They survey a relatively small percentage of hunters and extrapolate the results and come up with an estimate.
Even in states which have only relatively recently entered the modern world of game management by requiring the tagging and reporting of turkey and deer (Alabama for example), the numbers are basically a joke because of non-compliance. Until jurisdictions put some teeth in the penalty for failure to report harvests, those figures are going to continue to be a joke.
Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk
Quote from: Sir-diealot on June 19, 2021, 12:46:22 PM
Quote from: Jimspur on June 19, 2021, 12:38:57 PM
I have always heard that the gobbler/hen ratio was 50/50.
I'll check into it.
This is the program, if I misunderstood something don't feel bad about pointing it out to me, that is how we learn. https://www.themeateater.com/listen/meateater/ep-214-gobbling-your--off
I didn't hear him mention male/female ratio when he was talking about nesting. But I gotta tell you, that was depressing.
He said that 80% of eastern turkey nests are lost. 20% are successful
and have at least one poult. Only 1/3 of those successful 20% have at
least one poult that makes it to one month old.
From East Texas to South Carolina only 7% of nests produce one or more
poults that survive. Depressing!
Quote from: Jimspur on June 19, 2021, 01:49:04 PM
Quote from: Sir-diealot on June 19, 2021, 12:46:22 PM
Quote from: Jimspur on June 19, 2021, 12:38:57 PM
I have always heard that the gobbler/hen ratio was 50/50.
I'll check into it.
This is the program, if I misunderstood something don't feel bad about pointing it out to me, that is how we learn. https://www.themeateater.com/listen/meateater/ep-214-gobbling-your--off
I didn't hear him mention male/female ratio when he was talking about nesting. But I gotta tell you, that was depressing.
He said that 80% of eastern turkey nests are lost. 20% are successful
and have at least one poult. Only 1/3 of those successful 20% have at
least one poult that makes it to one month old.
From East Texas to South Carolina only 7% of nests produce one or more
poults that survive. Depressing!
Maybe that is where I got the 20% from, I guess I misunderstood.
Quote from: Paulmyr on June 18, 2021, 10:47:56 PM
How about an all of the above as far as solutions go. If you guys think this problems is going to turn around in a few years l got news for you. It took 40 years for the reintroduction of turkeys to get to boom levels of 15 years ago. Stop shooting hens, stop shooting dominant toms before breeding, limit the number of toms that can be taken during the season, predator control, better habitat,. Stop the downward spiral and than maybe you can think about rehabilitation.
All I hear on here is me, me, me, your limiting my opprotunities. Damn right they are how else do you think things might change. The rehabilitation of the wild turkey didn't happen because everybody and thier brother was out running across America trampling through the woods during spring breeding and nesting, shooting all the turkeys they possibly could spring or fall. That's what happened during the original downfall. Mine, mine, mine! Open your eyes people. The areas that need help are going to have to sacrifice. Predators, that problem isn't going away anytime soon. Do what you can if you can and it may help. Habitat, expanding populations across the world aren't going to help that one. The one area that wildlife managers can hopefully influence these down turns is hunter participation and mortality whether caused directly by shooting birds or indirectly by disrupting breeding cycles. People are crying out that something needs to be done. When they try people start bitching! What would you have them do? Should they go to Weyerhauser and tell them the pine plantations that you grow for the wood that builds houses across the world need to be managed for turkeys and not pine trees? Are they supposed to go to NY fashion shows and tell them fur is in again?
30 some years ago I spent a spring in Northern Ga. Took me almost 3 weeks of hunting everyday before I heard my 1st gobble. The yearly trips after that seen the population slowly increase before I had to stop going down there. This year I returned for the 1st time in 20 years and there were more birds gobbling by far than anything I heard in the 90's. Population decrease? Damn you guys are spoiled! I keep hearing that turkey populations started to decline with the collapse in the fur market. I wonder what happened about the same time? The dramatic increase in the number of turkey hunters storming through the woods. Not just local turkey hunters, hunters that travel across the country taking 3,5,10 birds a season.Time for some people to suck it up and realized this is a finite resource. Stomping through the woods and spooking hens off nests has an effect, shooting dominant toms before peak breeding has an effect, shooting hens has an effect.
The best post in the 4 pages of this thread and nobody wants to comment about....
That in itself shows the real problem...
As far as the rest of the comments.... Hens make gobblers bottom line. Protect your hens and you will have gobblers. I hunted 11 states this year didn't see but a handful of jakes anywhere, the problem last 3yrs I've seen in my travels are that there are more gobblers than hens. This makes the few gobbles very susceptible to calling. Furthermore the more people around the country I talk to the more I hear, "well we drove 300 miles and "fanned" 4 gobblers to the gun in ONE DAY!!!!!!
Fanning and strutting decoys need to outlawed as well as any hen killing, fall or spring!!!
Corn and game cameras need to be outlawed during turkey season also
Quote from: deadbuck on June 19, 2021, 04:52:54 PM
Corn and game cameras need to be outlawed during turkey season also
Another issue nobody wants to talk about...
Absolutely ridiculous regs in the states that allow it.
Quote from: Roost 1 on June 19, 2021, 03:52:32 PM
Quote from: Paulmyr on June 18, 2021, 10:47:56 PM
How about an all of the above as far as solutions go. If you guys think this problems is going to turn around in a few years l got news for you. It took 40 years for the reintroduction of turkeys to get to boom levels of 15 years ago. Stop shooting hens, stop shooting dominant toms before breeding, limit the number of toms that can be taken during the season, predator control, better habitat,. Stop the downward spiral and than maybe you can think about rehabilitation.
All I hear on here is me, me, me, your limiting my opprotunities. Damn right they are how else do you think things might change. The rehabilitation of the wild turkey didn't happen because everybody and thier brother was out running across America trampling through the woods during spring breeding and nesting, shooting all the turkeys they possibly could spring or fall. That's what happened during the original downfall. Mine, mine, mine! Open your eyes people. The areas that need help are going to have to sacrifice. Predators, that problem isn't going away anytime soon. Do what you can if you can and it may help. Habitat, expanding populations across the world aren't going to help that one. The one area that wildlife managers can hopefully influence these down turns is hunter participation and mortality whether caused directly by shooting birds or indirectly by disrupting breeding cycles. People are crying out that something needs to be done. When they try people start bitching! What would you have them do? Should they go to Weyerhauser and tell them the pine plantations that you grow for the wood that builds houses across the world need to be managed for turkeys and not pine trees? Are they supposed to go to NY fashion shows and tell them fur is in again?
30 some years ago I spent a spring in Northern Ga. Took me almost 3 weeks of hunting everyday before I heard my 1st gobble. The yearly trips after that seen the population slowly increase before I had to stop going down there. This year I returned for the 1st time in 20 years and there were more birds gobbling by far than anything I heard in the 90's. Population decrease? Damn you guys are spoiled! I keep hearing that turkey populations started to decline with the collapse in the fur market. I wonder what happened about the same time? The dramatic increase in the number of turkey hunters storming through the woods. Not just local turkey hunters, hunters that travel across the country taking 3,5,10 birds a season.Time for some people to suck it up and realized this is a finite resource. Stomping through the woods and spooking hens off nests has an effect, shooting dominant toms before peak breeding has an effect, shooting hens has an effect.
The best post in the 4 pages of this thread and nobody wants to comment about....
That in itself shows the real problem...
As far as the rest of the comments.... Hens make gobblers bottom line. Protect your hens and you will have gobblers. I hunted 11 states this year didn't see but a handful of jakes anywhere, the problem last 3yrs I've seen in my travels are that there are more gobblers than hens. This makes the few gobbles very susceptible to calling. Furthermore the more people around the country I talk to the more I hear, "well we drove 300 miles and "fanned" 4 gobblers to the gun in ONE DAY!!!!!!
Fanning and strutting decoys need to outlawed as well as any hen killing, fall or spring!!!
I find it ironic that you say that Paulmyr's post is the best in 4 pages of this thread, yet he identifies people like you as part of the problem.
Did you not read where he was talking about, "hunters that travel across
the country taking 3, 5, 10 birds a season".
I would like to hear your comments on that as well as where you stand
on the use of decoys. You want fanning and strutting decoys outlawed.
How do you feel about hen decoys?
Jim
Jim, I'll try to answer your questions best I can.
1- I do travel to hunt but very rarely kill more than 1 bird anywhere I travel to. Not because I can't but because I choose not to.
2- if you look at turkey harvest number from "most" states over last 15yrs you will see a drastic increase in harvest numbers about 2010 which is about the time when the first strutting decoys got popular. They were on the market before then but most hunters wouldn't pay $100 for one. That rapidly changed along with fanning/reaping.
Hen decoys In my opinion don't make a significant difference. A henned up gobbler is not gonna leave his harem to come to another hen.
The reason I like Paul's post is because there is a lot of truth in it. I have hunted TN for at least 25yrs, I've watched as the turkey population exploded(mid-90s) to the present day decline. Yet I still hear guys saying there is no decline, well that's simply not true and it's just selfishness on those peoples part. Now, maybe they are new to turkey hunting and don't know that the good ol days were 15yrs ago, but they should listen to reason.
Personally I don't kill more than 1 bird on any of
Y TN or KY farms. I did kill 2 birds on same farm in GA but only because I hadn't killed one there in 2yrs and there are plenty of birds and I'm the only one that hunts it.
Moving forward, I'm still gonna hunt multiple states, if allowed. However I'm totally NOT against opening seasons later, reducing bag limits, or ANY restrictions that benefit the wild turkey.
You see I cam remember when we didn't have a huntable population here in KY and I'm afraid it could be that way again at the rate things are going.
I'd also like to say that I absolutely don't believe hunting pressure is the cause of the decline.
There are many factors involved which is a very lengthy conversation and I can't type that well.
Hope these answers help you to know where I stand.
Thanks for replying Roost 1 - I think you touched on one of the issues
and that is the fact that younger hunters don't know when the peak was,
and don't remember back when you were lucky to hear a bird gobble
at all. When I started hunting here in Maryland, you had to go to the
3 westernmost counties to hunt spring gobblers. The rest of the state was
closed. These younger hunters don't know how bad things can get,
because they've never seen low turkey populations. They only know the
good times.
I also don't believe that hunting pressure is the cause of the decline.
I think that poor nesting success is the cause due to a number of issues.
Habitat is not as good, way more predators, and the list goes on.
I know where I live in Maryland, we have more hunters and probably half the birds we had 10 years ago.
I do agree with you on eliminating fanning and strutter decoys. I would
take it a step further and eliminate all decoy use, at least until populations
bounce back.
There is the possibility that no matter what we do, it's not going to help.
This might be our new normal.
Thanks for your thoughts, Jim
Too many hunters, all with new ideas on how to hunt them. It ain't gonna change unless most of them quit. I really miss the days when the hunters hunted scared and were aware that it was a sin to allow the turkeys to know that they existed. The noise that the new hunters make, should one of them kill one, is scandalous.
Quote from: silvestris on June 19, 2021, 10:43:37 PM
Too many hunters, all with new ideas on how to hunt them. It ain't gonna change unless most of them quit. I really miss the days when the hunters hunted scared and were aware that it was a sin to allow the turkeys to know that they existed. The noise that the new hunters make, should one of them kill one, is scandalous.
My God you are right! These yahoos will call in 5 gobblers, shoot one,
and then start screaming , hooping and hollering. Makes me sick.
They act like its their first rodeo!!!!
My philosophy is that if I don't kill him I sure won't scare him/them, we'll play another day.
When I started hunting you were lucky if you had 1 bird to hunt all season, now I hear birds most days that I hunt, 10yrs ago I'd hear several birds everyday I hunted. I guess the old saying about things coming full circle is true in turkey hunting as well.
Quote from: Roost 1 on June 20, 2021, 01:08:37 AM
My philosophy is that if I don't kill him I sure won't scare him/them, we'll play another day.
:icon_thumright:
OKLAHOMA
FALL TURKEY
HUNTERS TOTAL HARVEST
2014 20,467 5,600
2015 12,421 2,421
2016 20,372 4,429
2017 21,484 5,640
2018 17,793 3,764
2019 17,885 4,878
If this is true and 118 hens and total turkey 389 killed in 2020-21 I went to Jan 30,2021.
Then Oklahoma doesn't have to worry about closing fall season. They need to immediately shut down all turkey seasons and work like crazy to find out why. Or make plans to start restocking efforts.
Grand Total SPRING 2021 reports, Oklahoma
Male 5815
Female 33
Grand Total SPRING 2019 reports. 63,005 hunters
Harvest 20,864
Interim reports game harvest estimates.
Quote from: owlhoot on June 20, 2021, 02:23:05 AM
Grand Total SPRING 2021 reports, Oklahoma
Male 5815
Female 33
Grand Total SPRING 2019 reports. 63,005 hunters
Harvest 20,864
Interim reports game harvest estimates.
That's a gut wrenching statistic right there... to be down nearly 75% in two years. Dropping to 1 bird might not even be enough for Oklahoma, there should be counties closed for the season entirely with habitat work done in those counties to boom the population. Then trap and transport within their own state from those protected county populations, realistically could do a lot of good in 6-8 years.