Hey guys I just wanted to throw something out here for discussion. I just shot my 870SM with H-13 7's which are 3.5 shells. My target was some 4x4 cardboard a buddy had acquired but it's serveral pieces pressed togehter and is 3/4 in thick. At 40yds I had a excellent pattern but probally only 25% of the load went through the cardboard. Any thoughts on this. My friend shot a 3in Win. XX (Red Shell) #6's and had a substantial about more pass throughs?
I would like to here some discussion on this also. I have some of these shells ordered & haven't got to shoot them yet. Seems that would be of some concern if it's not going through the cardboard !! :gobble:
Read and look at this.
http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=612543
Then when you get done there go here.
http://oldgobbler.com/Forum/index.php/topic,1421.0.html
Class dismissed! :z-guntootsmiley:
Don't get me wrong last year I killed a gobbler at 46yds! But I couldn't understand the 2 guys shooting lead today had more pellets to pass through especially on a percentage basis.
Well lead won't pattern like hevishot and from what I have seen it won't penetrate better either.
This was another test that I used to see why I like #7's. When lead will pattern like that, I will switch back.
http://oldgobbler.com/Forum/index.php/topic,2410.0.html
dont underestimate the strength of compressed cardboard, or even compressed paper for that matter in terms of resisting penetration, i have personally seen a 4" thick phone book stop a .357 mag at point blank range out of a 6" ruger super blackhawk
I wouldn't worry about penetration from what I've seen. :icon_thumright:
I have been shooting hevi shot since it first came out.The first geese i pulled the trigger on were bout 50-55yds with Rem 3-11/2-5's they got Literarly crushed.When i cleaned the birds and saw that the 5's passed through the feathers breast meat/bone/meat and stopped at the far side skin i said "WOW gotta try these for turkey" been using HTLever since.Last year the first two birds i killed were with 7's 32yds & 52yds.The 52yd shot was like he got whacked with a golf club i only took the shot knowin i had enough pattern to get me there .When i cut the head/neck i found shot that passed completly through...crushed bone and created tons of trauma.I have never had a problem with penetration with any HTL loads
I read and see a lot of posts with good penetration from the Hevi.
Although on the other hand, I read and see many that say poor pentration, as compared to lead?
Here's one copied from another board, are these just nay sayers, that fudge the results?
Quote:
Was kinda board today so decided to try this again... I really didnt have much around the house to use as test material... I found two pieces of 1/2" fire board that has a very thin gauge metal wrapped around it... It is used to set behind your wood stove for wall protection from the heat...
Anyhow i only had two sheets so i opted to set them out at a measured 50 yards... I shot one with Win HV 3.5" 2oz #4's going 1300fps threw a Kicks GT...
The other was shot with a Hevi 13 3.5" 1 3/4oz of #6's 1090fps threw a jelly head choke...
The Win #4's all went threw the fire board hitting the sheet metal and leaving very pronounced dents...
The Hevi13 #6's all the pellets DID NOT pass threw the fire board and the dents WERE NOT as pronounced as the #4's...
This is the second test that I've done and both times the Win HV #4's out performed the Hevi13...
I dont know what to say but I will not be using them...
THE ONLY ADVANTAGE I SEE IS PATTERN DENSITY...
I admit I have not done any penetration tests with Hevi #7's other than shooting turkeys with them, and they did their job perfectly.
Having said that the person that Cutt referenced has continually bashed any type of heavier than lead loads, even going so far as to say that Hevi-13 #6's bounced off of a turkey he/she shot. Needless to say I don't put too much stock in his/her opinion, or even his/her testing for that matter.
Quote from: 30_06 on March 29, 2011, 09:34:31 PM
Having said that the person that Cutt referenced has continually bashed any type of heavier than lead loads, even going so far as to say that Hevi-13 #6's bounced off of a turkey he/she shot. Needless to say I don't put too much stock in his/her opinion, or even his/her testing for that matter.
Thanks for pointing that out, so a definite Nay Sayer.
bounced off a turkey :TooFunny: :TooFunny: :TooFunny: :TooFunny: :TooFunny: :deadhorse:
I'm here to tell you that Hevi-13 #7 loads will penetrate better than lead 5's from what I have seen.
Quote from: knightrider on March 29, 2011, 09:44:22 PM
bounced off a turkey :TooFunny: :TooFunny: :TooFunny: :TooFunny: :TooFunny: :deadhorse:
It had to be a turkey wearing body armor... :TooFunny:
Quote from: 30_06 on March 29, 2011, 09:34:31 PM
even going so far as to say that Hevi-13 #6's bounced off of a turkey he/she shot.
What chu talkin bout Willis?
@ 100 yds ?????? :lol:
Quote from: 30_06 on March 29, 2011, 09:34:31 PM
I admit I have not done any penetration tests with Hevi #7's other than shooting turkeys with them, and they did their job perfectly.
Having said that the person that Cutt referenced has continually bashed any type of heavier than lead loads, even going so far as to say that Hevi-13 #6's bounced off of a turkey he/she shot. Needless to say I don't put too much stock in his/her opinion, or even his/her testing for that matter.
Mr. Longbeard is so full of it. He continues to bash any Hevi-13 loads.
Quote from: knightrider on March 29, 2011, 09:44:22 PM
bounced off a turkey :TooFunny: :TooFunny: :TooFunny: :TooFunny: :TooFunny: :deadhorse:
Ok, Maybe after going thru a 24" red oak tree.
I tested hevi 12 #7.5s against CP Lead # 6s in wet phone books at 40yds. The lead was 50fps faster at the muzzle and penetrated less in the wet phone books than the Hevi 7.5.
I feel hevi is comparable to the penetration of lead 2 sizes larger, IE hevi 7.5=PB #5.
The test medium used in that post(fire board) is not a good medium IMO. He was comparing dents, which we all know #4 will make larger dents than #6. On flat tin 1400fps CP Lead bounces off leaving large dents while 975fps hevi 13 blows through. One may say the lead smashed flat, but I don't think so as most of the CP pellets I've dug out of any medium including plywood were still round and the dents in tin are very round with many round pellets laying on the ground in front of the tin.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with killing turkeys with lead, but you will never get HTL patterns from lead and pattern density is the #1 factor in killing turkeys.
Reloader
Quote from: Reloader on March 30, 2011, 09:59:14 AM
I tested hevi 12 #7.5s against CP Lead # 6s in wet phone books at 40yds. The lead was 50fps faster at the muzzle and penetrated less in the wet phone books than the Hevi 7.5.
I feel hevi is comparable to the penetration of lead 2x larger, IE hevi 7.5=PB #5.
The test medium used in that post(fire board) is not a good medium IMO. He was comparing dents, which we all know #4 will make larger dents than #6. On flat tin 1400fps CP Lead bounces off leaving large dents while 975fps hevi 13 blows through. One may say the lead smashed flat, but I don't think so as most of the CP pellets I've dug out of any medium including plywood were still round and the dents in tin are very round with many round pellets laying on the ground in front of the tin.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with killing turkeys with lead, but you will never get HTL patterns from lead and pattern density is the #1 factor in killing turkeys.
Reloader
And your the man that got me to realize this. :you_rock:
I couldn't agree more Ronnie.
I can't comment on penetration in cardboard, phonebooks or even tin but I can give a first hand account on what Hevi-13 #7's will do to Ole Three Toes.
I shot my first Osceola just outside Naples, FL on March the 8th and Hevi-13 #7's made a BELIEVER out of me and my Friend hunting with me. We had a Bird come into our decoy setup at 25 yards, slightly quartering away. I put the bead on the middle of his neck and let him hold a complete load of 2 1/4 ozs of #7's and put him in a pile where he once stood. When we cleaned the bird, I saw that my gun had shot a little low and right of the intended mark (I have since took care of that small problem). The stream of shot hit the lower neck area along with the left breast. The shot destroyed the lower neck, penetrated the left breast, through the breast bone and through the right breast. I only found about 5 shot in the bird and those were under the skin of the right breast. A complete pass through.
By the way, my Friend that witnessed the shot has since switched to Hevi-13's. SEEING IS BELIEVING!
I shoot hevi-13 7's 3 1/2 and every time ive shot a cardboard box with a paper target tacked to it or occasionally used the trifold cardboard used for projects and such there is always never fails shot that doesnt pass through one sheet, not two, not three but one sheet of cardboard at 40 yards. I havent tried it with lead or any other load but no doubt one sheet of cardboard at 40 yds wil stop some of the shot.
Quote from: knightrider on March 29, 2011, 09:44:22 PM
bounced off a turkey :TooFunny: :TooFunny: :TooFunny: :TooFunny: :TooFunny: :deadhorse:
:TooFunny: :TooFunny: :TooFunny: That turkey must have done a tour in Iraq or Afghanistan and wears a Kevlar vest and helmet as a precaution.
Ok, Is there anyone that has used h13 #7's on here that would be willing to hide behind 5 plys of cardboard? I have seen what it did to 2 birds last year at 50 & 48yds and there is no wayin ell I would think of it.... (not ment to be a dare) just to make a point...
I'm not bashing H-13 #7's and plan to hunt with them especially since I've bought up several boxes of the old lot #. But I found it to be interesting that at a measured 40yds two friends of mine shooting lead had more pass throughs than I did. And I had 322 in a 10in circle! Now as mentioned before this was a 3/4 in thick piece of cardboard several layers pressed together.
Quote from: jonhaga on March 30, 2011, 08:12:54 PM
I'm not bashing H-13 #7's and plan to hunt with them especially since I've bought up several boxes of the old lot #. But I found it to be interesting that at a measured 40yds two friends of mine shooting lead had more pass throughs than I did. And I had 322 in a 10in circle! Now as mentioned before this was a 3/4 in thick piece of cardboard several layers pressed together.
With 322 hits in a 10" lead won't touch it for killing power.
Test on a live turkey and then see what you think.
Mag10, I have zero doubt that the seven's are killer. I watched 4 birds fall to them last year all from 21 to 47 yards and I'm shooting them again this year. I wouldnt stand behing the cardboard because I know there's enough 5's and 6's in that load to hurt ya. It hurt my feelings finding shot in one ply of cardboard at 40 yards but I'm just stating the fact. Maybe its the so called pixie dust I was finding stuck in it.
It is also a lil embarassing talkin up the 7's then a friend pops a shot out of the cardboard after you shoot it with the 7's. They'll kill every bird i'll ever shoot at 0-50 and even farther if i shot em that far but so will lead. Its just a matter of what you want.
Have not tried the 7s yet but plan to do so after the season. Happy with my setup now but with all the talk I am curious.
, is 1.5" in ballistic gel supposed to be the magic number equating to a turkey head and neck?
Quote from: goblr77 on April 01, 2011, 01:48:42 PM
, is 1.5" in ballistic gel supposed to be the magic number equating to a turkey head and neck?
they guarantee a kill with that penetration. Anyting more then 1" is good enough for me.
Quote from: Gobble! on April 01, 2011, 03:06:39 PM
Quote from: goblr77 on April 01, 2011, 01:48:42 PM
, is 1.5" in ballistic gel supposed to be the magic number equating to a turkey head and neck?
they guarantee a kill with that penetration. Anyting more then 1" is good enough for me.
Just curious, where do the Hevi-13 #7's traveling at 1090 start to drop below 1" with the formula you're using?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but what we're talking about when we discuss the killing effect of any load is not only penetration but pattern density + energy delivered. So when we compare any load to another it isn't just about how far a pellet penetrates but how many you put in the killing zone along with the energy transfer. So if we are comparing Hevi #6's to 7's we should have more pellets on target with the 7's, which equates to more energy transfer but with slightly less penetration at 40 yards.
I'd been wondering about all this myself, especially since I'm contemplating trying some Hevi-13 shells. Many years ago, probably in the late 80's, I recall reading an article, where someone had figured out the foot pounds of energy required to consistently, and that is the key word, penetrate the skull and spinal column of an adult gobbler. If I recall correctly, the maximum range for CONSISTENT penetration with #6 lead was figured mathematically to be 39 yards, which prompted me to switch to #5 lead, which I shot for many years with great results. I'm pretty sure this was before the common use of high velocity turkey loads, which probably would increase that distance by several yards.
Now, we all know in the real world, things don't always go according to Hoyle. I recall a good friend of mine dropping a turkey at 63 paces with number #6 shot about 1980, long before HV shells were on the market, but again, that word consistent is of utmost importance. I have no qualms shooting #7's, as long as I know they will consisently kill beyond the maximum range at one should ever shoot anyway. I'm no physicist, but I also think some of these discrepancies in penetration may have to do with the frontal area of the individual shot themselves. The smaller the shot, the less resistance going through most mediums. Neill
Quote from: Neill_Prater on April 03, 2011, 10:58:34 PM
I'd been wondering about all this myself, especially since I'm contemplating trying some Hevi-13 shells. Many years ago, probably in the late 80's, I recall reading an article, where someone had figured out the foot pounds of energy required to consistently, and that is the key word, penetrate the skull and spinal column of an adult gobbler. If I recall correctly, the maximum range for CONSISTENT penetration with #6 lead was figured mathematically to be 39 yards, which prompted me to switch to #5 lead, which I shot for many years with great results. I'm pretty sure this was before the common use of high velocity turkey loads, which probably would increase that distance by several yards.
Now, we all know in the real world, things don't always go according to Hoyle. I recall a good friend of mine dropping a turkey at 63 paces with number #6 shot about 1980, long before HV shells were on the market, but again, that word consistent is of utmost importance. I have no qualms shooting #7's, as long as I know they will consisently kill beyond the maximum range at one should ever shoot anyway. I'm no physicist, but I also think some of these discrepancies in penetration may have to do with the frontal area of the individual shot themselves. The smaller the shot, the less resistance going through most mediums. Neill
I think you are referencing the Winchester study they claimed a pellet with 2.6 foot pounds will break a head or neck -
a #6 lead with a muzzle vel. of 1200 fps almost made it to 40 yards like you stated
#5 lead almost 50 yards
and a #4 lead 60 yards --
Quote from: Spuriosity on April 01, 2011, 04:30:40 PM
Quote from: goblr77 on April 01, 2011, 04:04:01 PM
Quote from: Gobble! on April 01, 2011, 03:06:39 PM
Quote from: goblr77 on April 01, 2011, 01:48:42 PM
, is 1.5" in ballistic gel supposed to be the magic number equating to a turkey head and neck?
they guarantee a kill with that penetration. Anyting more then 1" is good enough for me.
Just curious, where do the Hevi-13 #7's traveling at 1090 start to drop below 1" with the formula you're using?
Assuming they are 12 gm/cc (not 13) and that they are truly size 7...60 yds.
Thanks
Quote from: ILIKEHEVI-13 on March 29, 2011, 09:48:07 PM
I'm here to tell you that Hevi-13 #7 loads will penetrate better than lead 5's from what I have seen.
:agreed:
Quote from: link=topic=5672.msg77705#msg77705 date=1301928207
You're correct. Energy Density is what determines penetration. Not just energy. ED is KE divided by cross sectional area.
Ed Lowry et al did a study shooting mallard ducks years ago and came up with an ED number of 235 that was required to kill a duck with 95% certainty.
Lead 6s have a slightly better ED than Hevi-13 7s, but the hevi 7s put up a better pattern which is the other half of the lethality story.
Federal is REALLY missing the boat by insisting on that blasted Flite Control wad and relatively light payloads in 12 gauge. With that 15g/cc shot they carry WAY more Energy Density than the hevi 7s.
How many grams/cc is lead? Neill
Quote from: Spuriosity on April 05, 2011, 09:12:35 AM
Quote from: link=topic=5672.msg79057#msg79057 date=1302006856
Quote from: goblr77 on April 01, 2011, 01:48:42 PM
, is 1.5" in ballistic gel supposed to be the magic number equating to a turkey head and neck?
I don't know what the number is. There's a big difference between a carefully executed scientific study to arrive at the penetration required for a CERTAIN kill, vs a subjective experience showing a bird CAN be killed by X amount of penetration.
If you go by the Lowry et al study on 95% kill certainty on ducks, the 235 ED they came up with varies anywhere from 1.4" to 3" of ballistics gel penetration depending on other factors.
I personally don't think 1" is sufficient for a certain turkey kill. Because if it was, then #9 TSS at 1100 fps MV would be certain to kill a turkey at 99 yds every time, and lead #8s at 1200 fps would be good for turkeys up to 45 yds every time. And I don't believe that is the case.
I think 1.5 to 1.75" is more realistic.
Hal, I think 1.5-1.75 is overly conservative. That 235 ED for killing ducks was based on body shots. IMO it takes a lot less ED to kill a turkey with a headshot than it does a duck with a body shot.
Being aware of the 72 yd kill this year with T9s, the computer predicts 1.35" of penetration at that distance. It would be hard to argue that that number is insufficient since several pellets completely pentrated one half of the breast, the breastbone and almost all the way through the other breast. I realize that TSS is somewhat of a special case, but I have come to the conclusion that 1.25" of gel penetration is plenty. Of course, pattern density plays a huge role as range increases.
And I agree totally. I have been telling guys that doubted the Hevi-13 #7's at 50yds or farther. I have no doubt in my mind if you send a load of Hevi-13 #7's on track towards a gobblers head and neck at 60yds and the pattern density is there at that range say 80 to 100 shot in a 10" and it hits the vitals centered with that type of pattern the bird is going to die. Now that's a bit far to shoot one, but if the density from these loads are there at that range to do the job you will be amazed what this small shot will do. Like I said I shot plum through the breast with some shot on a 24lb bird last spring at probably farther than 45yds, but we will call it 45yds just so I don't overexaggerate it. I would say that most shot that hit the head and neck went completely through the opposite side. Now I can't see for the life of me 15 more yards putting this shot to where it wouldn't at least still kill a turkey in the head and neck area.
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/526/DSCF0066_Small_2_.jpg)
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/526/DSCF0070_Small_2_.jpg)
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/526/DSCF0073_Small_.jpg)
And just so no one thinks I work for Hevi-Shot or sell the stuff...lol...here's the actual picture of where the pattern hit the turkey in part of the upper breast.
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/526/DSCF0058_Medium_.jpg)
Here's the opposite side so you can see for yourself why I am saying what I say here. Pictures speak more than gelatin does.
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/526/DSCF0069_Small_.jpg)
And here is the 23 shot I dug out of the turkey breast. Most burried in the bird fairly deep.
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/526/DSCF00760_Small_.jpg)
And you can see on the last picture 2 of those clump together actual pellets in these loads that were probably as big as a lead #4 or #5 pellet. Now that's just on 23 shot. Imagine how many more of these are actually in this load of almost 570-600 shot from what I typically count on cardboard from these loads.
If 1.5"-1.75" was realistic it means that the MAX killing range with Hevi #7's @ 1090fps would be 36.5 yards. I've seen the damage first hand at what these loads will do well beyond that range.
Quote from: goblr77 on April 05, 2011, 10:13:45 AM
If 1.5"-1.75" was realistic it means that the MAX killing range with Hevi #7's @ 1090fps would be 36.5 yards. I've seen the damage first hand at what these loads will do well beyond that range.
I know I wouldn't have wanted to been the gobbler you toasted with a pattern like this coming my way and hitting me in the noggin! :z-guntootsmiley:
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