:z-guntootsmiley:
OK....so today was THE day I decided to find out if the new Win. Long Beard XR's were hype or FACT. Let me preface by saying, I have tested just about any and EVERY load imaginable for the last 6 or 7 years. While I have come across many GOOD loads that patterned very well, I have never seen a turkey load perform better than NITRO's. As you all know, the $6-$7 per shell price is not only ridiculous, but seems a little silly. With that said, I have always been a "want the BEST" type....so ive always paid the price for them.
Well today, I THINK MY $50 - $60 per box per 10 shells days are over. I took my Remington 870 SM, sure shot stock.....JEB's Headhunter 660. choke....and a handful of the XR's and this was the results........ After I saw what happened at 30 & 40yds....I decided to test their statement "twice the pellets in a 10" circle @ 60 yds". I have NEVER seen a shell do this and honestly had I not shot this MYSELF.....I would not believe it. So its ok WHEN you all doubt this. All I can say is try them for YOURSELVES. This load will hurt NITRO AMMO's remaining customers! Guaranteed.
I shot a typical color full size turkey target. I then flipped it over to the back and traced the outline on the white side of the paper, so the hits would show up better in the photos. I posted one photo just to show the front view of the target.
@ 30 yds....I stopped counting at 100 HITS...in head and neck ONLY. The WAD from the shell actually tore the PAPER!!
@ 40yds...I stopped counting at 79 HITS!
@ 60yds......I will let you see for yourself.
Looks good! What size shot is that?
Oh sorry....guess that would have been HELPFUL.
3.5" - #6
They are awesome. This is my BPS at 50 yrds
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/08/gabete2a.jpg)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I am sold on LB #4's. The best patterning shell I've used.
They do pattern great and will work ones face over at a reasonable range but if you think those lead #6 are going do the trick at 60 yards you gonna be in for a disappointment. They marketing on these shells are setting people up for failure. Gonna be a bunch of crippled birds this year with all these folks listening Winchesters claims. Good luck this year with your new shell just use your head when taking your shots or if not you better have fast feet.
Yeah, I agree with Highwaygun... I am not sure if I would trust lead 6's at 60 yards. I don't even know if I would take a 60 yard shot with any shell honestly.
He never said he was going to shoot one at 60. Just testing the claim of twice the pellets at 60. Without a doubt #6 lead does not have enough energy at 60 yds. to reliably kill a turkey. I hope people us common sense. It won't matter though, the kind of people who are going to take long shots are going to do it no matter what they're shooting.
Quote from: darn2ten on March 08, 2014, 01:35:12 AM
He never said he was going to shoot one at 60. Just testing the claim of twice the pellets at 60. Without a doubt #6 lead does not have enough energy at 60 yds. to reliably kill a turkey. I hope people us common sense. It won't matter though, the kind of people who are going to take long shots are going to do it no matter what they're shooting.
he did not say he was gonna shot at 60. I just assumed I guess. But if someone is patterning at 60 yards it is a good bet they would like to or are going to try it at some point just saying.
Quote from: highwaygun on March 08, 2014, 02:19:09 AM
Quote from: darn2ten on March 08, 2014, 01:35:12 AM
He never said he was going to shoot one at 60. Just testing the claim of twice the pellets at 60. Without a doubt #6 lead does not have enough energy at 60 yds. to reliably kill a turkey. I hope people us common sense. It won't matter though, the kind of people who are going to take long shots are going to do it no matter what they're shooting.
he did not say he was gonna shot at 60. I just assumed I guess. But if someone is patterning at 60 yards it is a good bet they would like to or are going to try it at some point just saying.
Guys...thanks for the comments.... When I decided to post this, I thought about specifying that I had NO intent to shoot a bird at that distance, I was simply testing the claim. If you notice, their claim says "10% more shot in a 10" circle at 60yds" ....nothing about "KILLING A TURKEY @ ANY distance" :o
That said.... patterning a turkey gun IMO should be for developing a sense of COMFORT that your equipment CAN perform at said distances, and to make you feel confident when taking your shot. I don't use it as a "how far can my gun shoot?" tool. Bottom line....everyone has or WILL take a shot too far at some point, if they hunt turkey long enough. Until you've watched him fly away, or you have chased him through the woods/field to discover...he's simply faster than you....you wont hesitate to take a shot that is simply TOO FAR. Good rule of thumb I use....if I ever catch myself saying "Can I kill him from HERE??" I let him come a few steps closer.
Thanks again for the comments......good luck this yr! :OGturkeyhead:
I have hunted turkeys on public land since 1992, back then it was something for me to get a pattern with turkey loads and a choke to do a regular huntable 40 yard pattern with #5 shot. Every bird I ever killed had lead shot in them, couldn't comment on the range they were shot at to get that lead in them. My point, if it is HTL or lead there are going to be people that will take questionable shots. I can say three things, I have never taken a questionable shot, I have never put shot into a bird that I didn't kill, I never let a bird get closer than 20 yards if possible. Winchester is not doing any thing wrong by creating an outstanding product, I do think their marketing will make people think about longer shots, Just like the patterns of HTL users will. Lead shooters don't have a monopoly on taking too long of shots.
Nice patterns for sure.
When shooting at 60 yards, do you have to hold over any or what?
Nice patterns
Said it before and will say it again. Winchester has changed the game a WHOLE lot. All of the other manufacturer's had better getting to coming up with a new product.
Best patterning shell I've ever shot. Great patterns
Quote from: strutlife on March 09, 2014, 10:25:45 PM
Said it before and will say it again. Winchester has changed the game a WHOLE lot. All of the other manufacturer's had better getting to coming up with a new product.
change what game. They dont pattern as good hevi's, they dont hit as hard as HW's, and they sure in the heck aint TSS. All Winchester did was make the best shell in a particular price range and thats it not the best shell ever. Yes they made a 2$ lead shell perform on paper like a 6$ plus htl shell but they still have the range, penetration, and density of a 2$ lead shell. What makes lead inferior to htl was never just the patterns it produces it was mainly the density of the lead itself. Winchester dipped a turd in chocolate and has many convinced there is caramel inside. When season opens many people are going to take a bite and realize that aint caramel!
Quote from: highwaygun on March 10, 2014, 01:11:40 AM
Quote from: strutlife on March 09, 2014, 10:25:45 PM
Said it before and will say it again. Winchester has changed the game a WHOLE lot. All of the other manufacturer's had better getting to coming up with a new product.
change what game. They dont pattern as good hevi's, they dont hit as hard as HW's, and they sure in the heck aint TSS. All Winchester did was make the best shell in a particular price range and thats it not the best shell ever. Yes they made a 2$ lead shell perform on paper like a 6$ plus htl shell but they still have the range, penetration, and density of a 2$ lead shell. What makes lead inferior to htl was never just the patterns it produces it was mainly the density of the lead itself. Winchester dipped a turd in chocolate and has many convinced there is caramel inside. When season opens many people are going to take a bite and realize that aint caramel!
This is a ridiculous statement. The difference in density between lead and hevi is not as substantial as people make it out to be. If this is your end all be all, you need to rethink your stance. To call a great lead load a turd is beyond asinine.
HTL shines in its patterning. Looks like lead is catching up. It changes the game.
Winchester definately changed the game of lead loads. Better do some research before you talk em down. I shot a box of #6's from an 11-87 12 g. tru glo .665 and the results were incredible. Tightest patterns ive ever seen and i have been shooting htl since it first came out. Absolutely hits the target like a truck at 40 yds. I too, had to test winchesters claims about long distance patterns and shot a laser ranged 60 yd shot which put 47 pellets in a 10'' circle . Not advicating the long shot but it proves that the patterns hold together alot further . Deadly Ammunition at a decent price !!
Quote from: jfair on March 10, 2014, 08:30:48 AM
Quote from: highwaygun on March 10, 2014, 01:11:40 AM
Quote from: strutlife on March 09, 2014, 10:25:45 PM
Said it before and will say it again. Winchester has changed the game a WHOLE lot. All of the other manufacturer's had better getting to coming up with a new product.
change what game. They dont pattern as good hevi's, they dont hit as hard as HW's, and they sure in the heck aint TSS. All Winchester did was make the best shell in a particular price range and thats it not the best shell ever. Yes they made a 2$ lead shell perform on paper like a 6$ plus htl shell but they still have the range, penetration, and density of a 2$ lead shell. What makes lead inferior to htl was never just the patterns it produces it was mainly the density of the lead itself. Winchester dipped a turd in chocolate and has many convinced there is caramel inside. When season opens many people are going to take a bite and realize that aint caramel!
This is a ridiculous statement. The difference in density between lead and hevi is not as substantial as people make it out to be. If this is your end all be all, you need to rethink your stance. To call a great lead load a turd is beyond asinine.
HTL shines in its patterning. Looks like lead is catching up. It changes the game.
Exactlly, lead is basically 11 g/cc and Hevi 12 g/cc. There's not a lot of density difference them. Run the numbers and do the math, ain't rocket science. Now if where talking heavyweight or TSS, then yes there is a valid argument.
Quote from: jfair on March 10, 2014, 08:30:48 AM
Quote from: highwaygun on March 10, 2014, 01:11:40 AM
Quote from: strutlife on March 09, 2014, 10:25:45 PM
Said it before and will say it again. Winchester has changed the game a WHOLE lot. All of the other manufacturer's had better getting to coming up with a new product.
change what game. They dont pattern as good hevi's, they dont hit as hard as HW's, and they sure in the heck aint TSS. All Winchester did was make the best shell in a particular price range and thats it not the best shell ever. Yes they made a 2$ lead shell perform on paper like a 6$ plus htl shell but they still have the range, penetration, and density of a 2$ lead shell. What makes lead inferior to htl was never just the patterns it produces it was mainly the density of the lead itself. Winchester dipped a turd in chocolate and has many convinced there is caramel inside. When season opens many people are going to take a bite and realize that aint caramel!
This is a ridiculous statement. The difference in density between lead and hevi is not as substantial as people make it out to be. If this is your end all be all, you need to rethink your stance. To call a great lead load a turd is beyond asinine.
HTL shines in its patterning. Looks like lead is catching up. It changes the game.
I was using a turd as a metaphor to show no matter what you coat something in it is still the same thing. In comparison to hevi lead is close in performance but in comparison to HW or TSS it is not by far. To say it changes the game for everyone is a asinine statement. Best lead load yes by far best turkey load no not even in top ten.
They are the real deal for sure i cant wait to smash a jelly head saturday
Quote from: highwaygun on March 10, 2014, 10:49:59 AM
Quote from: jfair on March 10, 2014, 08:30:48 AM
Quote from: highwaygun on March 10, 2014, 01:11:40 AM
Quote from: strutlife on March 09, 2014, 10:25:45 PM
Said it before and will say it again. Winchester has changed the game a WHOLE lot. All of the other manufacturer's had better getting to coming up with a new product.
change what game. They dont pattern as good hevi's, they dont hit as hard as HW's, and they sure in the heck aint TSS. All Winchester did was make the best shell in a particular price range and thats it not the best shell ever. Yes they made a 2$ lead shell perform on paper like a 6$ plus htl shell but they still have the range, penetration, and density of a 2$ lead shell. What makes lead inferior to htl was never just the patterns it produces it was mainly the density of the lead itself. Winchester dipped a turd in chocolate and has many convinced there is caramel inside. When season opens many people are going to take a bite and realize that aint caramel!
This is a ridiculous statement. The difference in density between lead and hevi is not as substantial as people make it out to be. If this is your end all be all, you need to rethink your stance. To call a great lead load a turd is beyond asinine.
HTL shines in its patterning. Looks like lead is catching up. It changes the game.
I was using a turd as a metaphor to show no matter what you coat something in it is still the same thing. In comparison to hevi lead is close in performance but in comparison to HW or TSS it is not by far. To say it changes the game for everyone is a asinine statement. Best lead load yes by far best turkey load no not even in top ten.
I don't believe anyone thinks or has said it's the best Turkey load, unless I missed it.
The majority of us shoot a max distance of around 40 yrds, which this shell does very well for a $2 lead shell. I think other companies who sell lead may see a dip in their sales if they don't come up with something. At least, that's what I got out of the previous posts...
This shell does very well at 40 yds for a $2 lead shell.Also is really tight at 20-25 yds,almost too tight for my liking..........because my liking is not to miss :P
Quote from: jakesdad on March 11, 2014, 08:10:15 PM
This shell does very well at 40 yds for a $2 lead shell.Also is really tight at 20-25 yds,almost too tight for my liking..........because my liking is not to miss :P
I don't like to miss either! I'll have to shoot this at 20 yrds to see what it does out of my setup. :z-guntootsmiley:
Quote from: WVHills on March 11, 2014, 10:48:00 PM
Quote from: jakesdad on March 11, 2014, 08:10:15 PM
This shell does very well at 40 yds for a $2 lead shell.Also is really tight at 20-25 yds,almost too tight for my liking..........because my liking is not to miss :P
I don't like to miss either! I'll have to shoot this at 20 yrds to see what it does out of my setup. :z-guntootsmiley:
Exactly!!! This stuff has brought lead loads back out in the forefront, but you have to remember not all turkeys come in at exactly 40 yards all the time. I have killed alot more at 15-20 yards. At 15-20 yards this stuff is equivalent to throwing a baseball at a turkeys head, makes the miss factor go WAY UP!
You have to give up one to get another..if you want a gun that patterns best at 15-20yds you could shoot a modified choke and any shell. To get what patterns best at 40yds whether it's HTL or LB's..it's gonna be tight at 15-20. The patterns I have seen at close range with LB's don't look much different than my guns set up for HTL. My 870 with a kicks .655 shoots the entire pattern inside a 10" @ 20 with all of the 3" 6 lead turkey loads from Winchester (super x, xx, hv) Turkey guns with tight chokes shoot tight patterns at 15-20, just the way it is..aim small..miss small.
Quote from: Longshanks on March 13, 2014, 01:13:26 PM
You have to give up one to get another..if you want a gun that patterns best at 15-20yds you could shoot a modified choke and any shell. To get what patterns best at 40yds whether it's HTL or LB's..it's gonna be tight at 15-20. The patterns I have seen at close range with LB's don't look much different than my guns set up for HTL. My 870 with a kicks .655 shoots the entire pattern inside a 10" @ 20 with all of the 3" 6 lead turkey loads from Winchester (super x, xx, hv) Turkey guns with tight chokes shoot tight patterns at 15-20, just the way it is..aim small..miss small.
^^This^^ After I shot at 40 I was a little concerned about the close stuff too. My gun shoots right at 200 with a 3" 5, but looks really no different at 20 than it does with other 3" 5 shells. About a 8" pattern with a solid 6" core. I mean there are pattern pics at 20 in the pattern section, check them out.
What I find to be quite funny is the "too tight at 20" crowd is saying...
Take ANY turkey shell with your #1 hunting choke and post a picture of your more open pattern at 20.
It seems like the HTL guys are trying hard to defend their "best pattern" turf by discounting a lead load.
As an example: I posted a picture of my Turkey Thug pattern last year on a different forum (~120 in 10" at 40) and got HAMMERED by the Nitro/HTL crowd because it was lead. This year I posted a picture of the LB (241 in 10" at 40) and all the HTT (holier than thou) HTL posters didn't say a word...
I patterned my SX3 with .665 choke, used 3 1/2" winchester supreme HV #5's and Long beard #5's. Range finder set target at 40 yards. I don't count holes, but the pattern was so tight with the long beards that I can't hunt with them, I would have to get a more open choke, A little one way or the other and I would miss. I think a lot of people will be taking long shots and missing. Just like rifle shooters, some can make the long shots, most can't. Myself I am going to hunt with my go to shell and that is the winchester supreme HV #5 3" and 3 1/2", I have 4 boxes of 3" and 9 boxes of 3.5" I will probably be dead before I run out of HV shells. I wish winchester would have come out with the long beard around 1992, I would not have had to buy as many chokes, looking for that 40 yard pattern. Have never seen a tighter lead pattern with #5 shot. Not trying to make anyone mad but long beard #5's have made #6 shot obsolete, beyond 40 yards I don't know if 6's will kill a turkey.
(http://i1328.photobucket.com/albums/w538/3barnes/IMG_7314_zpsa7007d01.jpg) (http://s1328.photobucket.com/user/3barnes/media/IMG_7314_zpsa7007d01.jpg.html)
(http://i1328.photobucket.com/albums/w538/3barnes/IMG_7313_zps5a526924.jpg) (http://s1328.photobucket.com/user/3barnes/media/IMG_7313_zps5a526924.jpg.html)
"Take ANY turkey shell with your #1 hunting choke and post a picture of your more open pattern at 20."
Both patterns with a 870 28" barrel and ventilator .655
One is Longbeard 3" #6 and the other is Win. grey box 3" #6
Yes both are tight but the grey box loads give a little more wiggle room with a evenly spaced and dense 10" pattern,while the Longbeards throw a fist sized hole.
Not saying either one is right or wrong.That decision is left to the shooter.I prefer the second pattern for where I hunt,your situation may dictate otherwise. :z-twocents:
What is your 40 pattern like?
Longbeards are in the 180s-190s
Grey box run mid 120s
I think it is going to be like the old West shoot outs this Turkey season : a lot of lead thrown, many misses, and probably some wounded and crippled birds. Everyone will figure our eventually that while LB is a good Turkey load it is not the magic shotgun shell to Turkey Glory. You do have to admire Winchesters marketing team - they certainly have hit the ten ring.
I have patterned my shotgun to 40 - 45 yards with #4, excellent patterns and I am very confident in myself, gun and load. However, to me the challenge is to call in the Turkey watch him strut his stuff, twirl around and carry on a bit. Not see how far away I can shoot him - if that was the case I would simply take a rifle and polish him off at a 100 yards or so.
Does it not occur to some that maybe we are forgetting why we use a shotgun, a primitive weapon or some type of handicap? Just my opinion: hope everyone has a good, ethical and safe Turkey season :gobble:
I love them!
I don't know what #6s will do BUT I know 3" #5s will penetrate tin at 60 yards.
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/16/eqeguzan.jpg)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
that's impressive
Quote from: highwaygun on March 10, 2014, 01:11:40 AM
Quote from: strutlife on March 09, 2014, 10:25:45 PM
Said it before and will say it again. Winchester has changed the game a WHOLE lot. All of the other manufacturer's had better getting to coming up with a new product.
change what game. They dont pattern as good hevi's, they dont hit as hard as HW's, and they sure in the heck aint TSS. All Winchester did was make the best shell in a particular price range and thats it not the best shell ever. Yes they made a 2$ lead shell perform on paper like a 6$ plus htl shell but they still have the range, penetration, and density of a 2$ lead shell. What makes lead inferior to htl was never just the patterns it produces it was mainly the density of the lead itself. Winchester dipped a turd in chocolate and has many convinced there is caramel inside. When season opens many people are going to take a bite and realize that aint caramel!
Don't t tell my pawpaw you can't kill them with lead. He's got enough beards to build 10 belts to spank you with lol
The problem we have seen in the pass is that big manufactures will not leave a load alone this year it may shoot great next year its crap . I have shot Nitros for 15 years dont have to think about if it will shoot this year they shoot every year.If you like what it is doing this year you better buy all you can find because next year it will be different.
Too tight, really ??? How can anyone say that a shot pattern is too tight ? Do you guys need a margin of error to hit your target. My shotgun shoots slugs 1/2'' diameter, accurately from muzzle out to 150 yds. With proper sighting and practice everyone should have their turkey guns shoot that well . from 10 yds to 40 yds your gun should hit its target no matter how small the pattern. If your gun requires a large pattern full of fliers , just to hit a turkey at 20 yds then i would think your setup needs more than just an open pattern.
At close range the Long Beards perform just like any turkey load will. Its the patterns they throw at 25 - 45 yds that makes them impressive.
A turkeys head is constantly moving so yes some patterns can be too tight at close range and you do need some room for error
Just look at some pattern pics on here, some have an aiming spot , the 10 in circle is left, then right , low and high.
Some with the same choke and load. At the range and the paper isnt moving, your heart isnt jumping out of your chest , you have not been sitting still for hours with your arm up for the last ten. If you can miss on paper you can miss in the field. :z-twocents: :z-twocents: :z-twocents:
Granted some are not sighted in yet with scopes and sights.