With diaphragm calls being a game of many variables I thought It would be cool to hear from everyone who wants to participate and talk about the way they develop calls and "tune" there calls. For example stretch ranges that have worked well for you with what certain cuts, reed stack spacing and what tighter stacks and more staggered stacks does for your sound. How much back tension are you using? and what more back tensions is doing for you sound. Thought this would be a good post to learn and share with each other.
Eric Pettit
This would be an interesting topic to explore among those of us that make mouth calls. As a "student" in the art of making mouth calls, I could make this a VERY long post on my perspective and the practically endless list of observations I have made. Instead of doing that, I will just make some general statements to begin with,...and perhaps expand on them as others chime in.
Before I started making calls, I bought calls from a number of different call makers,...just like everyone else. What I found over three decades of doing that is that there is no guarantee that one call is going to sound like the next call of the same type you buy. It became obvious that very subtle differences in the call construction, the reed materials used, and the precision of the cuts can make a significant difference in the sound of a call. What that translates to is that every single call made, even to the same specifications, is a crapshoot as to how it will sound,... even in the hands of an experienced mouth call user.
The number of variables in mouth call construction, and the way each of those variables affects the sound the call will produce, is complex. Throw in the abilities of the person using the call, and it is pretty obvious that saying one particular call design is a "one size fits all" solution to mouth call use is unrealistic.
What I have found in my own personal experience is that pretty much every call I make has a "turkey" in it somewhere,...if I just figure out how to find it. That "turkey" in the call usually is found by exploring the cut design by going through a series of cut progressions,...from simple to complex, until I hit upon the cut design that, for me and my call mechanics, is the best for that particular call.
Having said all of the above, the fact is that a lot of folks are not as picky about how a call sounds as some of us are. Not only that, but what is really important, when all is said and done, is the pickiness of the particular gobbler that any of us are calling to at any particular moment. :icon_thumright:
....More to come......Good topic
I've been making mouth calls for 10 or so years now. After experiencing with a lot of different variables and making thousands of calls my favorite call is a three reed batwing or combo cut (I like both). With a medium side tension stretch of .120 - .125 on Thad's press. Top read is .004 grey or green latex. Middle reed is .003 natural latex. Bottom reed is proph. I pull a good amount of back tension. I also pull a little more back tension on the top reed than the bottom two reeds.
I can pretty much nail it every time now and make a call I'd take to woods every time, but that took a lot of building calls.
^^^^^^^
What he said. I prefer the same call design as bangbird mentioned. I have stretched it tighter (160ish) but around 120 is a little better for me as well. I also like a two reed batwing for soft stuff. .004 on top with a .003 on the bottom, stretched to 100 with a slight smile of back tension. Requires very little air and easy to run.
I think I'll try one of those two reed batwings this evening.
Anyone figured out how to economically measure reed tension? I think that would lead to more consistent results. Measuring reed displacement is good but you need to make sure you clamp it exactly the same distance apart every time.
Quote from: killitngrillit on March 14, 2018, 03:28:23 PM
Anyone figured out how to economically measure reed tension? I think that would lead to more consistent results. Measuring reed displacement is good but you need to make sure you clamp it exactly the same distance apart every time.
I have a set of digital calipers I use to measure the tension on my jig. I like stretching a 3 reed to .170-.180 and a 2 reed to. 150-.160. My favorite is 004 yellow over 2 003 natural with a clipped batwing.
What's a clipped batwing?
If someone is trying to reproduce a specific call,... a call that, in turn, will produce identical sounds,...it is obviously best to be as precise as possible in the construction of the call. Tension of the reeds, both laterally and the back-tension, is only one of the many variables that influence sound, however.
It seems nobody even mentions things like minute differences in reed spacing, and probably most importantly, the cut differences,...not the cut design itself, but the very small, but important, differences in cut angle, depth, and location on the main sound reed. Furthermore, the latex itself likely varies enough from one piece to another to affect the sound, as well as potential frame slippage when the call is sealed.
I am not aware of any company that has exacting specifications on the reed cuts,...that is, they use some specific tool or method to guarantee the reed cut is exactly the same. I believe most just "guess" based on their experience making calls, and from my experience, very small difference in any of the above can cause differences in the sound characteristics.
Having said that, there is no doubt that those of us that make calls for ourselves can take the time to be as careful as we can about replicating calls that we have found that work best for us. However, I doubt that the mass-producers do that,...and even if they did, there is no "testing" of mouth calls that can be done before the sale,...and if there is, I want to know which companies do that so I can avoid them. ;D :toothy12:
Yep that's the beautify of making your own calls. You can produce a true custom call with precision.
Most mass produced calls aren't even made by hunters.
If you take a look at the same call in a store, they will all look different. Some significantly different.
For example I was looking at a particular signature call the other day in a store. Advertised as the prostaffer makes the call but I doubt that. I doubt he actually sits down and turns out 100s of 1000s of calls for non-personal use. Each one I picked up looked different, and no doubt would sound different.
Quote from: bangbird on March 15, 2018, 08:52:31 AM
What's a clipped batwing?
Sorry I meant clipped V cut. Brain was thinking of several things. My bad.
As a call builder I will agree that consistent assembly results in consistent results. However material variables are the biggest hurdle. That's why I personally like proph. I feel like my most consistent calls are proph under one reed of latex.
I have trouble with proph calls. Not sure if I just havnt found the stretch I need or if I just simply can not play proph calls Well. Sam any suggestions with the proph calls?
Eric
Wow! What an awesome thread. I have been trying to find the answers to all of those questions in the first post for the past five years. I haven't really discovered a true answer for any of them, but I can say that the more calls you make, the better the calls you make become overall as far as consistency and sound quality go. I like to stretch my three reed calls (.004 latex over proph.) between .150 and .170 with a combo or modified combo cut, but I am always trying something new. I have never heard of someone stretching a call as a low as .120! I am excited to give it a try this evening. I also hit spells where I fool with all sorts of crazy two reed combinations. I have found that a good double reed can be stretched to a wide range of tension as high as 160. This mouth call making certainly isn't for those who lack persistence. I swear it has about driven me crazy on more than one occasion especially when I was starting out as a 15 year old that didn't have even the slightest clue about what went in to making a call that sounded like a turkey instead of a dying cat. It is great to see a discussion finally being started on here to help out the guys like me who are still trying to wrap their mind around the impact certain variables have on the sound of a call.
I've had good luck with .004 over .0025 stretched to .140" as a two reed batwing. Give it a try
Eric
Very interesting discussion, I have looked for information like this forever. This may have already been answered somewhere but what is the variance between a press and a hand jig. For most of the stretches I do on a hand jig I run around .215-.260 on side tension.
Quote from: wise game calls on March 19, 2018, 12:42:48 PM
Very interesting discussion, I have looked for information like this forever. This may have already been answered somewhere but what is the variance between a press and a hand jig. For most of the stretches I do on a hand jig I run around .215-.260 on side tension.
If I stretched calls that tight on my jig they would sound like a squealing balloon. .180 is as high as I go on my jig
Everyone is throwing numbers around...they might be misleading...Are you stretching on a press or a hand jig?
Mark
As stated I am stretching on a hand jig. I understand on a press you are only stretching from the frame to the end of the latex where as I stretch the full length of latex thus having to stretch further than the guys with a press would. I was just curious how those numbers would correlate with each other.
Quote from: wise game calls on March 19, 2018, 03:27:41 PM
As stated I am stretching on a hand jig. I understand on a press you are only stretching from the frame to the end of the latex where as I stretch the full length of latex thus having to stretch further than the guys with a press would. I was just curious how those numbers would correlate with each other.
I think you may have answered your own question. I use one of Thads competition presses. I remember this question came up a couple years ago. Here are his (Thads) responses from 4/4/14.
1. "On a press you crimp left corner,,, from there to stretcher is about .95 of Material,,, Your only stretching .95 of material,,,,,,, on a hand jig from clamp to clamp is 1.875 of material,,,, now stretching .25 on both is same distance but the one on press is Tighter because there is less material to stretch,,,,,, trust me,,,,, when I first designed the hand jig I thought it should be the same but it isn't,,,,"
2. "I typically stretch .180 on a Press ,,, on a Hand jig to get about same sound I Stretch to
.320"
Quote from: Otdrzman on March 20, 2018, 10:44:07 AM
Quote from: wise game calls on March 19, 2018, 03:27:41 PM
As stated I am stretching on a hand jig. I understand on a press you are only stretching from the frame to the end of the latex where as I stretch the full length of latex thus having to stretch further than the guys with a press would. I was just curious how those numbers would correlate with each other.
I think you may have answered your own question. I use one of Thads competition presses. I remember this question came up a couple years ago. Here are his (Thads) responses from 4/4/14.
1. "On a press you crimp left corner,,, from there to stretcher is about .95 of Material,,, Your only stretching .95 of material,,,,,,, on a hand jig from clamp to clamp is 1.875 of material,,,, now stretching .25 on both is same distance but the one on press is Tighter because there is less material to stretch,,,,,, trust me,,,,, when I first designed the hand jig I thought it should be the same but it isn't,,,,"
2. "I typically stretch .180 on a Press ,,, on a Hand jig to get about same sound I Stretch to
.320"
Good info thanks
I like a 3 reed ghost yellow .004 over two .025 stretched 200 on a hand jig. or a 3 reed reverse combo .004 over 2 proph at 150 to 180 on a jig. Give it a try and good luck.
Thanks for the suggestions saverx,...will give 'em a go....