Have any of you tried mating yelps? After reading about mating yelps I read some scientific and university studies about a turkeys hearing.
Turkey's do not hear what we hear. What sounds great to you might sound horrible to them or they might not hear it at all!
Volume is decibles (dB). Tone frequency is hertz (Hz) Decible Sound Pressure Level is (dB SPL)
The range of frequencies that a turkey with good hearing can hear is 290 Hz to 5,250 Hz.
Humans with good hearing hear a range from 20 Hz to 20,000 Hz.
Both humans and turkeys hearing frequency range declines with age.
The optimum dB SPL is15.43 Most calls are louder than that and above the pain threshold.
The best heard frequency by turkeys is 2,000 Hz
If you are using calls with a frequency higher than 5,250 Hz the turkeys cant hear it! They may feel pressure on their ear but they won't hear it. The only response could be a shock. You wouldn't be calling them but you could be shocking them.
Numerous Crystal, glass, aluminum, ceramic and slate calls are higher than 5,250 Hz and above 15.43 dB SPL. Some turkeys calling can call at frequencies that turkeys cant hear.
Every call that I tested was also to loud. Way out of the dB range.
Maybe that is a reason why you get toms gobbling and going away from you? You aren't calling them you are shocking them!
The pic shows the range we hear and what turkeys hear.
Interesting stuff. Another variable in turkey calling to add to the already maddening mix! :)
Nice graph and info. I don't put anything into that data though. I've called in plenty of birds with some of the M.A.D. aluminum and mouth calls that scream at frequencies up to 15,000 Hz.
Quote from: Ihuntoldschool on May 18, 2020, 07:35:51 PM
Nice graph and info. I don't put anything into that data though. I've called in plenty of birds with some of the M.A.D. aluminum and mouth calls that scream at frequencies up to 15,000 Hz.
Every call has a range of frequencies. The chart below is one strike from a ceramic call that I cast with high temperature crucible ceramic. Turkeys are curious and will come to many odd sounds just to see whats making the sound.
The decibel level is a function of the distance from the call. How far away from the calls did you measure those decibel levels?
Quote from: Rapscallion Vermilion on May 18, 2020, 08:21:04 PM
The decibel level is a function of the distance from the call. How far away from the calls did you measure those decibel levels?
It was only a few feet away but I don't remember which circle I was striking or how much pressure Was applied. Each circle, actually each area of the front and back sounds different. Louder, softer but all are within the best frequency range heard by turkeys. You can call as if there are multiple hens.
Quote from: Ihuntoldschool on May 18, 2020, 07:35:51 PM
Nice graph and info. I don't put anything into that data though. I've called in plenty of birds with some of the M.A.D. aluminum and mouth calls that scream at frequencies up to 15,000 Hz.
I'm not sure that you know what 15,000 Hz sounds like. It's not the loud screeching sound that you think it is. It is hard to hear alone let alone along with the other frequencies that an aluminum call makes. Go to the link below and try different frequencies and you will hear what 15,000 Hz sounds like.
Calls in the 1,000 to 3,000 Hz range are heard the best by turkeys.
https://www.szynalski.com/tone-generator/
Turkeys are curious and will come to many odd sounds just to see whats making the sound. Maybe sometimes.
When multiple birds answer the high frequency sounding hen turkey call and each bird answers you multiple times and closes distance with gobbles getting closer and closer each time he answers your high frequency turkey call and even breaks in on your calling at times, again this pattern repeats itself on multiple gobblers until they end up at 30 yards or less and get shot, I have a slight hunch they came in looking for the hen they heard, not out of curiosity of an unknown sound.
By the way this was researched back in the mid 1990's as well when High Frequency turkey calls really took off. What they found was birds often responded best to sounds near 15,000 Hz. 10,000 Hz produced better responses than 5,000 Hz. These studies helped pave the way for turkey calls reaching the higher frequencies than were previously possible. I mentioned M.A.D as they were an industry leader as far as high frequency calls. Some of the other companies have calls that will reach the same frequencies I suspect.
Quote from: Ihuntoldschool on May 19, 2020, 02:44:15 AM
Turkeys are curious and will come to many odd sounds just to see whats making the sound. Maybe sometimes.
When multiple birds answer the high frequency sounding hen turkey call and each bird answers you multiple times and closes distance with gobbles getting closer and closer each time he answers your high frequency turkey call and even breaks in on your calling at times, again this pattern repeats itself on multiple gobblers until they end up at 30 yards or less and get shot, I have a slight hunch they came in looking for the hen they heard, not out of curiosity of an unknown sound.
Hens normal calling frequency range is not a high pitch. The average frequencies of all of the calls that they make are less than 5,000 Hz.
https://www.nwtf.org/hunt/article/identify-wild-turkey-calls
This attachment is from another government funded study that was done by a university.
Quote from: Ihuntoldschool on May 19, 2020, 02:55:56 AM
By the way this was researched back in the mid 1990's as well when High Frequency turkey calls really took off. What they found was birds often responded best to sounds near 15,000 Hz. 10,000 Hz produced better responses than 5,000 Hz. These studies helped pave the way for turkey calls reaching the higher frequencies than were previously possible. I mentioned M.A.D as they were an industry leader as far as high frequency calls. Some of the other companies have calls that will reach the same frequencies I suspect.
It was claimed to be researched but I suspect that it was more of a sales pitch. The person who wrote that article was on the pro staff of turkeyhunting247, the site that wrote the article and on the pro staff of Quaker boy, the call that he pitched in the article. What I am posting is from government funded studies.
Dayyam!! Turkey hunting IS rocket science after all! :)
Your first chart, comparing turkeys to humans, suggest that across their hearing range, that humans have more sensitive hearing than turkeys. Sure hard for me to believe that. It is also hard for me to believe turkeys do not hear gobblers drumming.
May be truth to what you are saying but I know for a fact turkeys hear waaay better than people. I call soft and I call extremely loud and have been killing birds doing this over 40 years. I do not for one minute believe that a gobbler going the other way is due to vall frequency. Its hens leading them off or a strut zone they want to be in. Blow a dog whistle. We cant hear them but a dog can and thats some serious frequency. I believe a turkey hears better than a dog. In the end , I just try to sound like a hen as natural as possible. No doubt high pitched sounds cause shock gobbles but I have heard hens that had a high pitch screech in their voice. Now I have never heard a hen get as high pitched as some calls like aluminum but they must because plenty of birds are killed with them. To me thats more proof that cadence is king compared to pitch. Just my 2 cents.
Quote from: Rapscallion Vermilion on May 19, 2020, 10:03:47 AM
Your first chart, comparing turkeys to humans, suggest that across their hearing range, that humans have more sensitive hearing than turkeys. Sure hard for me to believe that. It is also hard for me to believe turkeys do not hear gobblers drumming.
None of the charts are mine they come from different studies. Look at the screenshot in my next post
Quote from: Spitten and drummen on May 19, 2020, 10:15:02 AM
May be truth to what you are saying but I know for a fact turkeys hear waaay better than people. I call soft and I call extremely loud and have been killing birds doing this over 40 years. I do not for one minute believe that a gobbler going the other way is due to vall frequency. Its hens leading them off or a strut zone they want to be in. Blow a dog whistle. We cant hear them but a dog can and thats some serious frequency. I believe a turkey hears better than a dog. In the end , I just try to sound like a hen as natural as possible. No doubt high pitched sounds cause shock gobbles but I have heard hens that had a high pitch screech in their voice. Now I have never heard a hen get as high pitched as some calls like aluminum but they must because plenty of birds are killed with them. To me thats more proof that cadence is king compared to pitch. Just my 2 cents.
I'm no expert on sounds or frequencies I'm just posting what the studies show. Check out the attachment from one of the studies. Every study says the same.
http://www.turkeyhunting247.com/Article/the-truth-behind-high-frquency-calls-Page1.htm
Quote from: mspaci on May 20, 2020, 07:38:06 AM
http://www.turkeyhunting247.com/Article/the-truth-behind-high-frquency-calls-Page1.htm
That is the article that I referred to at...
http://oldgobbler.com/Forum/index.php/topic,98910.msg974116.html#msg974116
Very interesting... Does this mean I have to purchase more turkey calls ?
Quote from: gdc23 on May 23, 2020, 05:47:29 PM
Very interesting... Does this mean I have to purchase more turkey calls ?
Only if what you have isn't the correct frequencies. There are plenty of audio spectrum analyzer apps that will show you the frequencies of your calls.
Quote from: Spitten and drummen on May 19, 2020, 10:15:02 AM
May be truth to what you are saying but I know for a fact turkeys hear waaay better than people. I call soft and I call extremely loud and have been killing birds doing this over 40 years. I do not for one minute believe that a gobbler going the other way is due to vall frequency. Its hens leading them off or a strut zone they want to be in. Blow a dog whistle. We cant hear them but a dog can and thats some serious frequency. I believe a turkey hears better than a dog. In the end , I just try to sound like a hen as natural as possible. No doubt high pitched sounds cause shock gobbles but I have heard hens that had a high pitch screech in their voice. Now I have never heard a hen get as high pitched as some calls like aluminum but they must because plenty of birds are killed with them. To me thats more proof that cadence is king compared to pitch. Just my 2 cents.
X2 .. I so agree , it's called turkey hunting ... cadence , cadence ....
I'm no musician or an sound engineer. But here is my take on sounds and frequency. Every sound produces a frequency ( pitch) this is measured in hertz (Hz) The intensity of sound is (volume). This is measured in dB. You can produce a sound at a certain frequency at low volume or high volume and the frequency (pitch) will still read the same frequency or Hz It don't matter if your calling soft or loud on a call the frequency will stay the same unless you change the pitch example. The key f on a piano produces the same frequency if played soft or hard. With this I do tune the calls I build by using a electronic guitar tuner. I can see what frequency the call is putting out. And I can play a live recording of the bird or animal the call is build to reproduce and see what the real animals produce on the tuner
That is the sound I'm looking for with in the range of frequency that the bird or animal communicates with I believe that is the reason you may be calling with a pot call and no response but you switch to a diff striker and all of a sudden he goes wild over it. Just by changing the pitch or frequency is all the bird wanted. Not softer or louder
When all is said and done, I think is the very rare turkey call that does not produce sounds that turkeys can hear. In my opinion, if us hunters can hear a call, there is a very high percentage chance that turkeys can hear it. Now, that does not necessarily mean that because a turkey can hear it that he is going to respond to it. I believe, in the vast majority of cases, a lack of response is due to a lot of other factors besides the frequency of the call being beyond a turkeys hearing range.
Quote from: GobbleNut on May 25, 2020, 04:02:23 PM
When all is said and done, I think is the very rare turkey call that does not produce sounds that turkeys can hear. In my opinion, if us hunters can hear a call, there is a very high percentage chance that turkeys can hear it. Now, that does not necessarily mean that because a turkey can hear it that he is going to respond to it. I believe, in the vast majority of cases, a lack of response is due to a lot of other factors besides the frequency of the call being beyond a turkeys hearing range.
I'm sure there are some free audio manipulating software programs out there. I have an audio program and have put real turkeys calling and recorded turkey calls into it.
I removed everything below 290hz and everything above 5,250hz. The real turkeys calling doesn't sound like what we hear. Some calls that sound great to the ear, sound terrible when everything below 290hz and everything above 5,250 are removed.
If the multiple studies are correct that turkeys can only here between 290hz to 5250hz then what you hear and what they hear are two different things.
I attached a pic of some ceramic casting crucibles and a 1"×3" piece of aluminum tubing. They all sound great and many would use them as calls but when everything below 290hz and everything above 5,250 is removed you hear little to nothing from the aluminum tubing. The crucibles sound much closer to the real turkeys calling but still aren't right.
can you share the articles or studies you reference about turkey hearing?
Quote from: mspaci on May 25, 2020, 05:40:22 PM
can you share the articles or studies you reference about turkey hearing?
One is in print and does not belong to me. Another can probably be found searching the titles and authors shown in the screenshot.
I have another but I will need to search thru the files in my tablet to find it. All three basically say the same thing about what frequencies turkeys can hear.
All my the pot calls that I carry are far above that frequency. Haven't had any issues with calling in long beards.
This entire discussion begs the question as to how the researchers determined that all turkeys can, or cannot, hear certain frequencies? As others here have stated, there is a lot of non-scientific, circumstantial evidence that suggests that maybe,...just maybe,...the study does not reflect reality.
Now, don't get me wrong,...I really don't have a dog in this fight either way. I think the entire concept of turkeys and hearing ability is interesting,...but I am personally not going to put much stock in it in terms of how I go about calling turkeys. For me, they either answer or they don't,...and they either come or they don't. I'm not going to try to make it any more complicated than that.
I'm going to use this study to present my case to my wife for more turkey calls.
Quote from: GobbleNut on May 27, 2020, 10:15:33 AM
This entire discussion begs the question as to how the researchers determined that all turkeys can, or cannot, hear certain frequencies? As others here have stated, there is a lot of non-scientific, circumstantial evidence that suggests that maybe,...just maybe,...the study does not reflect reality.
Now, don't get me wrong,...I really don't have a dog in this fight either way. I think the entire concept of turkeys and hearing ability is interesting,...but I am personally not going to put much stock in it in terms of how I go about calling turkeys. For me, they either answer or they don't,...and they either come or they don't. I'm not going to try to make it any more complicated than that.
That's about where I'm at with it lol
Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk
Quote from: GobbleNut on May 27, 2020, 10:15:33 AM
This entire discussion begs the question as to how the researchers determined that all turkeys can, or cannot, hear certain frequencies? As others here have stated, there is a lot of non-scientific, circumstantial evidence that suggests that maybe,...just maybe,...the study does not reflect reality.
Now, don't get me wrong,...I really don't have a dog in this fight either way. I think the entire concept of turkeys and hearing ability is interesting,...but I am personally not going to put much stock in it in terms of how I go about calling turkeys. For me, they either answer or they don't,...and they either come or they don't. I'm not going to try to make it any more complicated than that.
It's not "THE" study it was three studies. All say basically the same thing as far as what frequency range turkeys hear.
Lots of calls and sounds make toms gobble but you wouldn't use them to call in a Tom.
Just because your call makes a Tom gobble doesn't mean it's a call worth using. It might only be as good as a owl, crow, coyote, peacock, duck or goose call or as good as beating a stick against a tree or slamming a door. They all make toms gobble too!
I have numerous sounds that I've tested before and after the spring and fall seasons that bring in the whole flock. Hens, toms, jakes, they all show up. All of the sounds are between 290hz and 5,250hz. Sweeping thru the ranges making multiple sounds within the frequency range.
Some sound like crickets, some sound like alien radio transmissions from outer space, some sounds are undescribable but they all gets the birds to come within range. Some of them make the tree frogs croak like crazy.
None of the sounds sound like turkeys, not even close but whole flocks come. From sunup to sundown they come. Sometimes it takes some time but I don't change locations eventually they show up.
The problem is that they are electronic sounds. Mp3 files played from my phone or an mp3 player. Technically they aren't electronic turkey calls but who knows what a warden or judge would think so I don't use them in season.
I've been making numerous hand held and mouth blown objects trying to replicate the sounds in the frequency range but so far I'm not happy with any of them even though some work ok. I had an ocarina made in the frequency range. It works but not as well as I want. I think the ocarina sounds to much like birds so it doesn't spark the turkeys curiosity as well as the other sounds.
Other sounds below 290hz and above 5250hz do nothing. Nothing shows up ever but if I switch to the hearing frequency range they show up.
Here is the bottom line. We are going to continue using the calls that we have found successful over many years and on many gobblers regardless of whether they fit into your agenda or what you want to push on us with your technical studies. If you want to make it complicated then have at it. The majority of us will keep things simple and continue to use what has worked well over the years. Your studies contradict previous studies and research that was done 25 plus years ago as I pointed out in an earlier post.
It's ludicrous and downright comical for you to suggest all the longbeards we called in on calls that don't fit your little narrow frequency range came all the way in to the shotgun out of curiosity over an unknown sound. The fact is they came in looking for the hen they heard, gobbling their way in in response to our hen calls, many of which if we are to believe what you're selling could not even be heard by the turkeys.
You should by all means use what works for you and what you have confidence in. But you're wasting your time trying to sell us on your agenda, we ain't buying what you're selling.
Quote from: Ihuntoldschool on May 27, 2020, 06:26:59 PM
Here is the bottom line. We are going to continue using the calls that we have found successful over many years and on many gobblers regardless of whether they fit into your agenda or what you want to push on us with your technical studies. If you want to make it complicated then have at it. The majority of us will keep things simple and continue to use what has worked well over the years. Your studies contradict previous studies and research that was done 25 plus years ago as I pointed out in an earlier post.
It's ludicrous and downright comical for you to suggest all the longbeards we called in on calls that don't fit your little narrow frequency range came all the way in to the shotgun out of curiosity over an unknown sound. The fact is they came in looking for the hen they heard, gobbling their way in in response to our hen calls, many of which if we are to believe what you're selling could not even be heard by the turkeys.
You should by all means use what works for you and what you have confidence in. But you're wasting your time trying to sell us on your agenda, we ain't buying what you're selling.
Your bottom line my bottom line and other people's bottom line are surely different. Not everyone has the same bottom line.
I suggested and informed others of how they could check the frequency of their calls. Is that what you call an agenda? I'm not selling anything now nor will I be selling anything in the future! No agenda at all! I would tell everyone what worked and they could choose to try it.
Who is "We" do you speak for everyone here?
I really dont care who uses what call. They can use whatever they want! I know a guy who sands the bottom of a aluminum soda can and uses it to call! Who cares??? I certainly don't!
I'm assuming that this is what you are calling a study and research?
http://www.turkeyhunting247.com/Article/the-truth-behind-high-frquency-calls-Page1.htm.
An article written by someone who is on the pro staff of the company selling the call that he is writting about. That's an agenda It's not a study or research. He is saying they got a response not that any of the toms showed up. Go out in the woods and bang the top of an aluminum trash can with a bat and you will probably get an even better response.
If you heard the sounds that have repeatedly brought in whole flocks and saw it happen with your own eyes and ears would you still think it's ludicrous? It is comical But it brings in whole flocks not just toms. There is no other explanation except curiosity as the sounds are very different from each other.
I never said that all calls are out of the frequency range stated in three funded studies performed by universities. Even the high frequency calls make sounds that fall within the range.
Again I don't have an agenda and I'm not selling anything.
If my posts bother you don't read them.
Quote from: CrankyTom on May 27, 2020, 05:19:10 PM
Other sounds below 290hz and above 5250hz do nothing. Nothing shows up ever but if I switch to the hearing frequency range they show up.
I have made countless spectrograms over the years of both real turkeys calling and various types of turkey calls run by a number of different talented callers. The vast majority of real turkey calls and their imitations have almost zero content below 290 Hz and above 5250 Hz. So there is little anyone needs to be concerned about. One interesting exception is the spit and drum. The spit, has some very high frequency content, and the drum is around 100 Hz or less.
I do have some questions/concerns about the studies you have cited. Were they performed on wild turkeys or domestic turkeys? I don't know that there would be a big difference, but there could be. Are the low and high frequency limits in those charts just the limit of what was actually tested?
Both Tom Kelly and Kenny Morgan recall, in their books, personal experiences of watching turkeys suddenly get alarmed and it was on the order of a minute or two before they heard what the turkeys heard. In both cases, the low frequency sound of a vehicle approaching. I expect many on here have had similar experiences, which argues against the claim that wild turkeys have less sensitive hearing than humans do.
Quote from: Rapscallion Vermilion on May 27, 2020, 08:18:42 PM
Quote from: CrankyTom on May 27, 2020, 05:19:10 PM
Other sounds below 290hz and above 5250hz do nothing. Nothing shows up ever but if I switch to the hearing frequency range they show up.
I have made countless spectrograms over the years of both real turkeys calling and various types of turkey calls run by a number of different talented callers. The vast majority of real turkey calls and their imitations have almost zero content below 290 Hz and above 5250 Hz. So there is little anyone needs to be concerned about. One interesting exception is the spit and drum. The spit, has some very high frequency content, and the drum is around 100 Hz or less.
I do have some questions/concerns about the studies you have cited. Were they performed on wild turkeys or domestic turkeys? I don't know that there would be a big difference, but there could be. Are the low and high frequency limits in those charts just the limit of what was actually tested?
Both Tom Kelly and Kenny Morgan recall, in their books, personal experiences of watching turkeys suddenly get alarmed and it was on the order of a minute or two before they heard what the turkeys heard. In both cases, the low frequency sound of a vehicle approaching. I expect many on here have had similar experiences, which argues against the claim that wild turkeys have less sensitive hearing than humans do.
The frequencies in the charts is what they hear it is not what ranges were tested. A simple Google search will return numerous articles stating that very few birds of any kind can hear frequencies over 5,000 Hz. This is a short article...
https://ornithology.com/the-hearing-of-birds/
I've tested plenty of calls that tested higher than 10,000 Hz. That's why I suggested in an earlier post to get a free spectrum analyzer phone app and test your calls.
Maybe the turkeys that Tom Kelly and Kenny Morgan witnessed felt vibrations on their feet? I posted a screenshot here about the myth of birds hearing better than humans.
Quote from: CrankyTom on May 27, 2020, 08:34:38 PM
The frequencies in the charts is what they hear it is not what ranges were tested.
Well that can't be quite right. One of your charts cuts off at 500 Hz and the other below 250 Hz. Just taking one of the charts as given, I doubt the turkey could hear something at say 125 Hz and nothing at all at 124 Hz. Real ears don't have sharp band pass filters.
The charts show a U shape. It's not like they just cut off they taper off.
The newer chart was from a study that was done many years after the other study. I'm assuming with better equipment?
Test your hearing. I can't hear 15,000hz
https://www.szynalski.com/tone-generator/
I am very interested in all of this. Could you post a sound file of some of the sounds you have used to call in whole flocks. I have eastern turkeys that I hatched from eggs three springs ago and they make some sounds we probably will never here in a typical hunting environment. One of my hens has started this growling thing that I had never heard before this spring.
Quote from: larry9988 on May 27, 2020, 09:49:51 PM
I am very interested in all of this. Could you post a sound file of some of the sounds you have used to call in whole flocks. I have eastern turkeys that I hatched from eggs three springs ago and they make some sounds we probably will never here in a typical hunting environment. One of my hens has started this growling thing that I had never heard before this spring.
There are a whole lot of them. Do you have an android phone or tablet? If so install this app and set it like the pic attached here. Change the frequencies and seconds. Keep the frequencies between 290 and 5250. Change the seconds from 0.01 to as high as you want. Every one of them will work! Try playing some classical music too! Watch how the turkeys relax, sing, dance (sometimes) and listen to the music. It's amazing!
Check this video out...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCTURufVLVI
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.boedec.hoel.frequencygenerator
Quote from: CrankyTom on May 27, 2020, 08:58:53 PM
The charts show a U shape. It's not like they just cut off they taper off.
The newer chart was from a study that was done many years after the other study. I'm assuming with better equipment?
That's my point. It doesn't make sense to apply a sharp cutoff to the frequencies at which they can hear. The newer paper goes down to 125 Hz. I doubt a turkey's hearing suddenly stops there either. As mentioned in one of the papers I found, the so-called limits are determined by setting an arbitrary dB threshold. A 2004 paper I found puts the upper "limit" of a turkey's hearing at 6600 Hz.
Quote from: Rapscallion Vermilion on May 27, 2020, 11:02:29 PM
Quote from: CrankyTom on May 27, 2020, 08:58:53 PM
The charts show a U shape. It's not like they just cut off they taper off.
The newer chart was from a study that was done many years after the other study. I'm assuming with better equipment?
That's my point. It doesn't make sense to apply a sharp cutoff to the frequencies at which they can hear. The newer paper goes down to 125 Hz. I doubt a turkey's hearing suddenly stops there either. As mentioned in one of the papers I found, the so-called limits are determined by setting an arbitrary dB threshold. A 2004 paper I found puts the upper "limit" of a turkey's hearing at 6600 Hz.
I would think any study would have slightly different high/low frequencies. There isn't much difference between 5,290 hz and 6,600 Hz.
I'm no expert on sound at all I'm just going by what I read and try for myself.
Where do you see 125 hz? Where it says center frequency 1.22 khz?
1.22 kHz = 1,220 hz
The lower limit in the newer chart is 0.29 khz
0.29 khz = 290 hz
If there is a K before Hz that means x 1,000.
The way that I see the charts the low and high frequencies increase in volume. They can hear 290 at 60 db. Above 60 db is harmful and hurts turkey ears. In humans above 85 db can be harmful/painful. For turkeys the best db/loudness is 15.43 db. Look up decibel pain levels.
Db spl = decibel sound pressure level.
Dancing wild turkeys: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rc71X5NLbYU
Quote from: CrankyTom on May 27, 2020, 11:26:36 PM
Where do you see 125 hz? Where it says center frequency 1.22 khz?
1.22 kHz = 1,220 hz
The newer chart, which you said shows the frequencies at which the turkeys have been shown to hear, has data down to .125 KHz (125 Hz). What you are calling the "lower limit" was determined by an arbitrary dB threshold.
Quote from: Rapscallion Vermilion on May 27, 2020, 11:43:50 PM
Quote from: CrankyTom on May 27, 2020, 11:26:36 PM
Where do you see 125 hz? Where it says center frequency 1.22 khz?
1.22 kHz = 1,220 hz
The newer chart, which you said shows the frequencies at which the turkeys have been shown to hear, has data down to .125 KHz (125 Hz). What you are calling the "lower limit" was determined by an arbitrary dB threshold.
I don't see .125 Hz or khz anywhere.
The lower limit on the chart says 0.29 Khz 0.29 Khz = 290 Hz.
The center frequency says 1.22 Khz. 1.22 Khz = 1,220 Hz.
I don't know what you mean by an arbitrary threshold? What I see is that they can hear 290 Hz at 60 db and 2,000 Hz at about 15 db and about 5,000 Hz at 60 db. Above 60 db is harmful and hurts. The charts are pretty clear, both charts show a range of frequencies that the turkeys can hear. The older chart shows the frequencies that humans with good hearing can hear.
Quote from: CrankyTom on May 27, 2020, 11:58:40 PM
Quote from: Rapscallion Vermilion on May 27, 2020, 11:43:50 PM
Quote from: CrankyTom on May 27, 2020, 11:26:36 PM
Where do you see 125 hz? Where it says center frequency 1.22 khz?
1.22 kHz = 1,220 hz
The newer chart, which you said shows the frequencies at which the turkeys have been shown to hear, has data down to .125 KHz (125 Hz). What you are calling the "lower limit" was determined by an arbitrary dB threshold.
The lower limit on the chart says 0.29 Khz 0.29 Khz = 290 Hz.
The center frequency says 1.22 Khz. 1.22 Khz = 1,220 Hz.
I don't know what you mean by an arbitrary threshold? What I see is that they can hear 290 Hz at 60 db and 2,000 Hz at about 15 db and about 5,000 Hz at 60 db. Above 60 db is harmful and hurts. The charts are pretty clear, both charts show a range of frequencies that the turkeys can hear. The older chart shows the frequencies that humans with good hearing can hear.
You are reading the words in the legend, but not looking at the data. If you go back to the older paper, they set that horizontal line at 60 dB to determine the upper limit at 6600 Hz. I believe the words in that paper say something to that effect that it is an arbitrary decibel level for that determination. The newer data shows a response all the way down to 125 Hz at 60 dB. Looking at the newer chart, at 125 Hz the determined threshold is about 60 dB, likewise at 6600 Hz, it is about 60 dB. At 290 Hz, the threshold is closer to 40 dB. I suspect your newer source chose an arbitrary 40 dB threshold to set upper and lower limits. 60 dB is the sound level of normal speech in conversation. The human pain threshold is around 120 dB.
You are right I am looking at the numbers not the chart. I'm going to have to find the whole study in my tablet and read exactly how the numbers/chart were made or calculated.
Data for the audiogram figure in Appendix B give the lowest intensity heard (best intensity),
the frequency at which hearing is best (best frequency),
the bandwidth of the audiogram 30 dB above the best frequency/lowest intensity,
the low and high frequency limits of hearing,
and the midfrequency of the audiogram (the midpoint between the low and high frequency limits of hearing on a log scale).
Very interesting discussion going on here for the "hi-tech" guys. Here's a question for all of the "low-tech" turkey hunters like me out there that are reading this thread. How many of you are going to change your calls or calling habits based on the information presented? More directly, how many of you have now concluded that the reason you may not be calling in a certain gobbler is because they cannot hear your calls?
Here's my low-tech thoughts on the matter. I use calls every spring that, to my ears, sound like turkeys. Every spring, I use those calls to communicate with an assortment of gobblers. Some of them respond enthusiastically to my calling,...and some of them don't. At no time in the past have I assumed that the reason any of those non-responsive gobblers have not responded to my calling because they could not hear it. I have always assumed that, if one gobbler could hear it and gobble to the call, that there was a pretty high probability that any other gobbler I tried that call on could hear it.
Now, I could understand the "out of their hearing range" theory if I used a call that I judged to be questionable in terms of it making "turkey sounds", and especially if I never ever got a response from a turkey when using that call. However, I have never had that experience,...mostly because I don't use calls like that because I have no confidence in their sound.
Here I will qualify this post with this statement: I most certainly believe that there are certain tonal/pitch qualities that will bring more responses from gobblers overall. But in my experience, even that can vary from gobbler to gobbler. The trick is to determine what sound a particular gobbler wants to hear. In my opinion, whether or not a gobbler can even hear the sound I am using is not, and never has been, a factor.
...The End,...from a "low-tech" turkey hunter :)
Quote from: GobbleNut on May 28, 2020, 09:43:47 AM
Very interesting discussion going on here for the "hi-tech" guys. Here's a question for all of the "low-tech" turkey hunters like me out there that are reading this thread. How many of you are going to change your calls or calling habits based on the information presented? More directly, how many of you have now concluded that the reason you may not be calling in a certain gobbler is because they cannot hear your calls?
Here's my low-tech thoughts on the matter. I use calls every spring that, to my ears, sound like turkeys. Every spring, I use those calls to communicate with an assortment of gobblers. Some of them respond enthusiastically to my calling,...and some of them don't. At no time in the past have I assumed that the reason any of those non-responsive gobblers have not responded to my calling because they could not hear it. I have always assumed that, if one gobbler could hear it and gobble to the call, that there was a pretty high probability that any other gobbler I tried that call on could hear it.
Now, I could understand the "out of their hearing range" theory if I used a call that I judged to be questionable in terms of it making "turkey sounds", and especially if I never ever got a response from a turkey when using that call. However, I have never had that experience,...mostly because I don't use calls like that because I have no confidence in their sound.
Here I will qualify this post with this statement: I most certainly believe that there are certain tonal/pitch qualities that will bring more responses from gobblers overall. But in my experience, even that can vary from gobbler to gobbler. The trick is to determine what sound a particular gobbler wants to hear. In my opinion, whether or not a gobbler can even hear the sound I am using is not, and never has been, a factor.
...The End,...from a "low-tech" turkey hunter :)
Even a high 15,000 Hz screaming aluminum will have some sounds below the hearing threshold that the birds will hear. It's not like they hear nothing but what you hear and what they hear is different. You think it sounds like a turkey because that's what you hear. What they hear is below the threshold and sounds a whole lot different.
Just because your call makes a Tom gobble/respond doesn't mean it's a call worth using. It might only be as good as a owl, crow, coyote, peacock, duck or goose call or as good as beating a stick against a tree or slamming a door. They all make toms gobble too but you aren't going to use any of them to call in a gobbler.
Get the free audio program called Audacity. Record your high frequency call. Put the recording into Audacity and remove all frequencies below 290 hz and above 5250 hz and play the sound file. Its not going to sound the same. It certainly isn't going to sound like a hen to a Tom. He may "Respond" to the sound. I doubt that you would ever use that call again.
I'm trying to find a way to call hens. I searched for the studies for that reason. If a gobbler is with a hen he more than likely isn't going to come to calls that do sound like hens to them. Trying to intimidate the hen into coming in is hard to do and a waste of time on a non dominate hen.
If/when I find something legal that brings in hens I will have a call that brings in toms that are with hens.
I removed the YouTube video/audio. I don't have time to convince others of what the studies show. You all can do what you want and do your own research. Sorry but I just don't have the time for that.
This is not a turkey call! This is a real live turkey hen calling with the frequencies below 290 removed and the frequencies above 5250 removed. My buddy uploaded it to a YouTube account. I tried to post a mp3 here but the file was over 6mb and it wouldn't upload.
https://youtu.be/NqFPVfbmj-s
Quote from: CrankyTom on May 28, 2020, 11:22:48 AM
This is not a turkey call! This is a real live turkey hen calling with the frequencies below 290 removed and the frequencies above 5250 removed. My buddy uploaded it to a YouTube account. I tried to post a mp3 here but the file was over 6mb and it wouldn't upload.
https://youtu.be/NqFPVfbmj-s
I just did a spectrogram on that video. You didn't cut the hen off below 290 Hz, you rolled it off pretty sharply below 2900 Hz. Given that most yelps are dominant in the 1000 to 2000 Hz range, of course it sounds bizarre.
Quote from: Rapscallion Vermilion on May 28, 2020, 11:39:27 AM
Quote from: CrankyTom on May 28, 2020, 11:22:48 AM
This is not a turkey call! This is a real live turkey hen calling with the frequencies below 290 removed and the frequencies above 5250 removed. My buddy uploaded it to a YouTube account. I tried to post a mp3 here but the file was over 6mb and it wouldn't upload.
https://youtu.be/NqFPVfbmj-s
I just did a spectrogram on that video. You didn't cut the hen off below 290 Hz, you rolled it off pretty sharply below 2900 Hz. Given that most yelps are dominant in the 1000 to 2000 Hz range, of course it sounds bizarre.
Maybe you should scalp an audio file of a hen calling and edit the frequencies and and listen it and/or post it.
I really didn't think that I would be spending so much time here on something so simple. I'm going to keep making and trying non electronic calls until I get one that works as well or as close to the electronic calls at bringing in all the turkeys. Hens, toms and Jake's.
Unfiltered hen yelp sequence from a very high quality recording
https://soundcloud.com/rapscallion_vermilion/yelpsequence-unfiltered (https://soundcloud.com/rapscallion_vermilion/yelpsequence-unfiltered)
Spectrogram (vertical scale is kHz - lighter color is great amplitude)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49945808792_49751dcca0_c_d.jpg)
Same sequence cut off below 290 Hz and above 5250 Hz. (These cutoffs are arbitrary, but for the sake of discussion.)
https://soundcloud.com/rapscallion_vermilion/yelpsequence-filtered (https://soundcloud.com/rapscallion_vermilion/yelpsequence-filtered)
Corresponding Spectrogram, note the absence of sound (black) below 290 Hz or above 5250 Hz.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49945018678_160b99e9f5_c_d.jpg)
Quote from: Rapscallion Vermilion on May 28, 2020, 12:11:24 PM
Unfiltered hen yelp sequence from a very high quality recording
https://soundcloud.com/rapscallion_vermilion/yelpsequence-unfiltered (https://soundcloud.com/rapscallion_vermilion/yelpsequence-unfiltered)
Spectrogram (vertical scale is kHz - lighter color is great amplitude)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49945808792_49751dcca0_c_d.jpg)
Same sequence cut off below 290 Hz and above 5250 Hz. (These cutoffs are arbitrary, but for the sake of discussion.)
https://soundcloud.com/rapscallion_vermilion/yelpsequence-filtered (https://soundcloud.com/rapscallion_vermilion/yelpsequence-filtered)
Corresponding Spectrogram, note the absence of sound (black) below 290 Hz or above 5250 Hz.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49945018678_160b99e9f5_c_d.jpg)
Can you do the same with a high frequency call? Record the call and then remove the ranges below 290 and above 5250?
Quote from: CrankyTom on May 28, 2020, 11:52:44 AM
Quote from: Rapscallion Vermilion on May 28, 2020, 11:39:27 AM
Quote from: CrankyTom on May 28, 2020, 11:22:48 AM
This is not a turkey call! This is a real live turkey hen calling with the frequencies below 290 removed and the frequencies above 5250 removed. My buddy uploaded it to a YouTube account. I tried to post a mp3 here but the file was over 6mb and it wouldn't upload.
https://youtu.be/NqFPVfbmj-s
I just did a spectrogram on that video. You didn't cut the hen off below 290 Hz, you rolled it off pretty sharply below 2900 Hz. Given that most yelps are dominant in the 1000 to 2000 Hz range, of course it sounds bizarre.
Maybe you should scalp an audio file of a hen calling and edit the frequencies and and listen it and/or post it.
I really didn't think that I would be spending so much time here on something so simple. I'm going to keep making and trying non electronic calls until I get one that works as well or as close to the electronic calls at bringing in all the turkeys. Hens, toms and Jake's.
I dont know about anyone else but if I had a call that called birds in everytime , then I probably would quit turkey hunting. I dont see how the enjoyment would be there anymore. Kind of like shooting deer in high fenced area.
Quote from: CrankyTom on May 28, 2020, 12:15:47 PM
Quote from: Rapscallion Vermilion on May 28, 2020, 12:11:24 PM
Unfiltered hen yelp sequence from a very high quality recording
https://soundcloud.com/rapscallion_vermilion/yelpsequence-unfiltered (https://soundcloud.com/rapscallion_vermilion/yelpsequence-unfiltered)
Spectrogram (vertical scale is kHz - lighter color is great amplitude)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49945808792_49751dcca0_c_d.jpg)
Same sequence cut off below 290 Hz and above 5250 Hz. (These cutoffs are arbitrary, but for the sake of discussion.)
https://soundcloud.com/rapscallion_vermilion/yelpsequence-filtered (https://soundcloud.com/rapscallion_vermilion/yelpsequence-filtered)
Corresponding Spectrogram, note the absence of sound (black) below 290 Hz or above 5250 Hz.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49945018678_160b99e9f5_c_d.jpg)
Can you do the same with a high frequency call? Record the call and then remove the ranges below 290 and above 5250?
Lol - I think I'm done. Did you even bother to listen to and compare the two sound clips?
Quote from: Spitten and drummen on May 28, 2020, 12:27:20 PM
Quote from: CrankyTom on May 28, 2020, 11:52:44 AM
Quote from: Rapscallion Vermilion on May 28, 2020, 11:39:27 AM
Quote from: CrankyTom on May 28, 2020, 11:22:48 AM
This is not a turkey call! This is a real live turkey hen calling with the frequencies below 290 removed and the frequencies above 5250 removed. My buddy uploaded it to a YouTube account. I tried to post a mp3 here but the file was over 6mb and it wouldn't upload.
https://youtu.be/NqFPVfbmj-s
I just did a spectrogram on that video. You didn't cut the hen off below 290 Hz, you rolled it off pretty sharply below 2900 Hz. Given that most yelps are dominant in the 1000 to 2000 Hz range, of course it sounds bizarre.
Maybe you should scalp an audio file of a hen calling and edit the frequencies and and listen it and/or post it.
I really didn't think that I would be spending so much time here on something so simple. I'm going to keep making and trying non electronic calls until I get one that works as well or as close to the electronic calls at bringing in all the turkeys. Hens, toms and Jake's.
I dont know about anyone else but if I had a call that called birds in everytime , then I probably would quit turkey hunting. I dont see how the enjoyment would be there anymore. Kind of like shooting deer in high fenced area.
Most will shoot the first tom that they can shoot. Others will shoot the first legal bird Tom or Jake that they can shoot. Many bait but won't ever tell. Many legally and illegally bait deer.
I probably let more toms walk than some shoot. I want all or a combination of a things. Multi beards, extra long beard and/or spurs, nice coloring, ect.
Its really not much different than deer, the older they get the nicer they get! What I pass on one year I will shoot in following years.
It's not a matter of how many get called in.
Quote from: Rapscallion Vermilion on May 28, 2020, 12:53:06 PM
Quote from: CrankyTom on May 28, 2020, 12:15:47 PM
Quote from: Rapscallion Vermilion on May 28, 2020, 12:11:24 PM
Unfiltered hen yelp sequence from a very high quality recording
https://soundcloud.com/rapscallion_vermilion/yelpsequence-unfiltered (https://soundcloud.com/rapscallion_vermilion/yelpsequence-unfiltered)
Spectrogram (vertical scale is kHz - lighter color is great amplitude)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49945808792_49751dcca0_c_d.jpg)
Same sequence cut off below 290 Hz and above 5250 Hz. (These cutoffs are arbitrary, but for the sake of discussion.)
https://soundcloud.com/rapscallion_vermilion/yelpsequence-filtered (https://soundcloud.com/rapscallion_vermilion/yelpsequence-filtered)
Corresponding Spectrogram, note the absence of sound (black) below 290 Hz or above 5250 Hz.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49945018678_160b99e9f5_c_d.jpg)
Can you do the same with a high frequency call? Record the call and then remove the ranges below 290 and above 5250?
Lol - I think I'm done. Did you even bother to listen to and compare the two sound clips?
I listened to them. They are slightly different. I must have screwed up and put 2900 instead of 290 or did something wrong. I'm not any kind of sound expert. I've never used any sound program before.
I read this thread. I really don't feel I learned anything. Of course a call will sound different to a turkey that has a different range of hearing than a human. Just like camo, calls are designed to sell. But if a call has worked in the past, who cares what that call sounds like inside the turkey's brain.
In order to determine hearing frequency in animals, the only way that I am aware of is an EEG. Lack of response means outside the hearing range (same as only way to accurately gauge sight in an animal).
This whole discussion reminds me of what my physics teacher said to our class in college. "Define the color red".
CrankyTom, you seem to be convinced that there is some turkey call or sound that will call in any and every turkey if you just find the right "frequency". Perhaps you are right, but I would not bet on it,...and in fact, if I had to bet my own life on it one way or the other, I would bet against it.
The fact is there are umpteen other factors that affect whether or not a turkey (or turkeys) are going to come to anybody's calling. No disrespect intended, but I am pretty confident you are searching for a "holy grail" that does not exist. Regardless, good luck with your search. :)
Having said that, I will again state that I find this whole "frequency" theory to be interesting. I just personally believe that in the practical world of turkey hunting, it is pretty far down the list in its significance relative to those "umpteen other factors" mentioned above.
Quote from: GobbleNut on May 28, 2020, 02:03:02 PM
CrankyTom, you seem to be convinced that there is some turkey call or sound that will call in any and every turkey if you just find the right "frequency". Perhaps you are right, but I would not bet on it,...and in fact, if I had to bet my own life on it one way or the other, I would bet against it.
The fact is there are umpteen other factors that affect whether or not a turkey (or turkeys) are going to come to anybody's calling. No disrespect intended, but I am pretty confident you are searching for a "holy grail" that does not exist. Regardless, good luck with your search. :)
Having said that, I will again state that I find this whole "frequency" theory to be interesting. I just personally believe that in the practical world of turkey hunting, it is pretty far down the list in its significance relative to those "umpteen other factors" mentioned above.
I've already posted an android app that I've used multiple times with multiple sounds that have brought in a flock or flocks every time I've tested it. I haven't tested it in season but have tested it before and after sprint and fall seasons.
I'm not looking for any one frequency im looking for a non electronic device that works as well or better or slightly less effective than the android app.
I posted a video of a guy beating some sort of drum that brought in wild toms. The title says wild turkeys, the guys called toms, girls so he is clueless, I don't see any food or scat or feathers, or scratching or anything that makes me think the toms are domesticated.
I'm convinced by the multitude of totally different sounds that have brought the birds in that it is curiosity that makes them come. They are known to be very curious!
I didn't see any of the umpteen factors that cause turkeys to come to someone's calls. Will you mention a few? Other than they are looking for hot hens.
Quote from: CrankyTom on May 28, 2020, 03:05:01 PM
I didn't see any of the umpteen factors that cause turkeys to come to someone's calls. Will you mention a few? Other than they are looking for hot hens.
Sure,...here's a few that every single turkey hunter that has hunted spring gobblers for any length of time will very likely confirm:
1) Hunting pressure
2) Stage of the breeding season
3) Turkey population density
4) Hunters using hunting techniques/calling that makes turkeys associate calling with danger
Every one of the above (and some more if I took time to think on it a bit longer) are factors that will influence a turkeys willingness to come to a call.
This thread is entertaining to say the least. I am a turkey hunter who has been at it 40 years. I have killed a pile of birds without studying frequecies. I do know that I have seen birds gobble in fields every bit of a mile away while blowing a trumpet. The wind was high and We could not hear them answer but could see them through binos gobble at every call. I know that I have called with barely audible clucks and purrs a hundred yards away and bring them right in. I also know that I have had birds walk away gobbling at my every call. Heading to strut zones or following hens only to call them right in from the same location with the exact same call the very next day. Again I love any research or anything to do with these birds and learn something new everyday about them so I am interested. If you are able to trophy hunt these birds like deer then my hat off to you. I dont shoot everything I call up but a good gobbling turkey that plays the game with me is a trophy in my book. I will not shoot a hen or a jake at all. Thats just not my thing. Again , if I called a bird in on every hunt then I would lose intrest. Its a game to me and I enjoy getting my butt whipped by a old bird. It makes it all the more better when I pull the trigger.
Quote from: Spitten and drummen on May 28, 2020, 09:45:00 PM
This thread is entertaining to say the least. I am a turkey hunter who has been at it 40 years. I have killed a pile of birds without studying frequecies. I do know that I have seen birds gobble in fields every bit of a mile away while blowing a trumpet. The wind was high and We could not hear them answer but could see them through binos gobble at every call. I know that I have called with barely audible clucks and purrs a hundred yards away and bring them right in. I also know that I have had birds walk away gobbling at my every call. Heading to strut zones or following hens only to call them right in from the same location with the exact same call the very next day. Again I love any research or anything to do with these birds and learn something new everyday about them so I am interested. If you are able to trophy hunt these birds like deer then my hat off to you. I dont shoot everything I call up but a good gobbling turkey that plays the game with me is a trophy in my book. I will not shoot a hen or a jake at all. Thats just not my thing. Again , if I called a bird in on every hunt then I would lose intrest. Its a game to me and I enjoy getting my butt whipped by a old bird. It makes it all the more better when I pull the trigger.
I'm no expert but I am a mad scientist! Lol! I'll try anything different! I always want to find a better way!
Try an ocarina in Alto C. Just make noise with it for a half a minute and wait a half hour. Then another half minute. If there are birds within hearing range they will come! It doesn't work as good as the electronic sounds but it works.
While you are searching to see what an ocarina is search for...
turkey anting
Finding an active anting site is hard here but it may be easier elsewhere.
Find one and sit. Sooner or later the birds will be there!
Not to belabor this discussion, but I am fascinated by your outlook on this subject.
First of all, I had never heard the term "turkey anting" in my life,...even with a wildlife management degree and having been involved with wild turkey management for five decades. ...Don't know how that one got by me for so long...
Secondly, I looked up Alto (assuming California) on Google Earth. My impression from the looks of it is that that is a fairly urban area (lots of subdivisions, it appears). Assuming my impression is correct on that, my first thought is that you are dealing with human-conditioned turkeys there. I can assure you that wild turkeys that live in those circumstances behave entirely differently than wild turkeys that live in truly wild conditions.
Wild turkeys living in constant contact with human beings,...and where they are likely not being hunted to any degree, if at all,...will lose their innate fear of humans. I would suggest that if you really want to test your theories about turkeys being attracted to unusual sounds, that you venture to some of the places,...and under the conditions,...that many of us hunt, and then report back to us on how well your "every turkey in the country will come running" theory works.
Again, no offense is intended here. I just find your ideas on turkey calls/sounds to be a bit unusual and unique. :)
I searched for "anting" here and am amazed that I could not find one instance of it being discussed. I've been hunting anting sites for decades. Very hard to find one here but it must be easier in other locations.
I was talking about an "Ocarina" in a tone of "Alto C"
An Ocarina is an Asian flute. It can be purchased in the tone of "Alto C"
https://www.google.com/search?q=alto+c+ocarina&oq=alto&aqs=chrome.0.69i59j69i57j69i65l2j69i60.1989j0j7&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8
I have used it to bring in whole flocks on public ground with no large populations of people nearby. State forests with very few people living nearby.
Quote from: CrankyTom on May 29, 2020, 09:24:33 AM
I was talking about an "Ocarina" in a tone of "Alto C"
An Ocarina is an Asian flute. It can be purchased in the tone of "Alto C
Whoops! My bad! Thought you were referring to turkeys around Alto CA.
...Carry on.... :)
BOTTOM LINE TURKEYS DO WHAT TURKEYS DO
This video shows a great response...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVrQypTa8oQ