Hello all. I picked up a brand new Remington 870 Super Mag 12 gauge on Monday and took it to the range yesterday. I was really disappointed by the early results and looking for some direction. I started off at 25 yards and while the pattern was certainly deadly, it was more like I would expect at 40. But the real issue is that at 40 yards I could not get a pellet onto paper. The pattern was flying so high that I needed to aim 2 feet low to get any hits. I was using both the supplied Remington Super full choke, and a regular Undertaker choke. I was shooting 3" Longbeard #5, 3" Remington Premier, and 3.5" Federal #4. I'm still scratching my head about how the pattern could totally disappear in 15 yards. Any guidance would be appreciated. The targets were a last minute scramble, my printer ran out of toner.
Quote from: Escout711 on April 05, 2019, 08:04:43 PM
Hello all. I picked up a brand new Remington 870 Super Mag 12 gauge on Monday and took it to the range yesterday. I was really disappointed by the early results and looking for some direction. I started off at 25 yards and while the pattern was certainly deadly, it was more like I would expect at 40. But the real issue is that at 40 yards I could not get a pellet onto paper. The pattern was flying so high that I needed to aim 2 feet low to get any hits. I was using both the supplied Remington Super full choke, and a regular Undertaker choke. I was shooting 3" Longbeard #5, 3" Remington Premier, and 3.5" Federal #4. I'm still scratching my head about how the pattern could totally disappear in 15 yards. Any guidance would be appreciated. The targets were a last minute scramble, my printer ran out of toner.
How big was the paper you were shooting at? If it was too small maybe completely missing. If the target was large (3'x3') then I have no clue.
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Quote from: DBell on April 05, 2019, 08:09:16 PM
Quote from: Escout711 on April 05, 2019, 08:04:43 PM
Hello all. I picked up a brand new Remington 870 Super Mag 12 gauge on Monday and took it to the range yesterday. I was really disappointed by the early results and looking for some direction. I started off at 25 yards and while the pattern was certainly deadly, it was more like I would expect at 40. But the real issue is that at 40 yards I could not get a pellet onto paper. The pattern was flying so high that I needed to aim 2 feet low to get any hits. I was using both the supplied Remington Super full choke, and a regular Undertaker choke. I was shooting 3" Longbeard #5, 3" Remington Premier, and 3.5" Federal #4. I'm still scratching my head about how the pattern could totally disappear in 15 yards. Any guidance would be appreciated. The targets were a last minute scramble, my printer ran out of toner.
How big was the paper you were shooting at? If it was too small maybe completely missing. If the target was large (3'x3') then I have no clue.
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I was just using 8.5"x11". The cardboard on the target stands at the range were absolutely shredded, and I next time I'm bringing large sheets of paper. I'm trying to attach pics, but I'm new to this forum and they clearly have not made it easy to post pics.
Quote from: DBell on April 05, 2019, 08:09:16 PM
Quote from: Escout711 on April 05, 2019, 08:04:43 PM
Hello all. I picked up a brand new Remington 870 Super Mag 12 gauge on Monday and took it to the range yesterday. I was really disappointed by the early results and looking for some direction. I started off at 25 yards and while the pattern was certainly deadly, it was more like I would expect at 40. But the real issue is that at 40 yards I could not get a pellet onto paper. The pattern was flying so high that I needed to aim 2 feet low to get any hits. I was using both the supplied Remington Super full choke, and a regular Undertaker choke. I was shooting 3" Longbeard #5, 3" Remington Premier, and 3.5" Federal #4. I'm still scratching my head about how the pattern could totally disappear in 15 yards. Any guidance would be appreciated. The targets were a last minute scramble, my printer ran out of toner.
How big was the paper you were shooting at? If it was too small maybe completely missing. If the target was large (3'x3') then I have no clue.
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My friend was watching me shoot and said he could see the cardboard above the target getting hit.
Lots of guns have POI problems. Williams Sluggers or TruGlo pro series if you want fiber optics. I use the Williams with ghost ring on mine.
I shoot at a 36x36" sheet of paper, you'll see your whole pattern with it.
Quote from: Tom Foolery on April 05, 2019, 08:20:31 PM
Lots of guns have POI problems. Williams Sluggers or TruGlo pro series if you want fiber optics. I use the Williams with ghost ring on mine.
I shoot at a 36x36" sheet of paper, you'll see your whole pattern with it.
Thanks, I definitely want to upgrade the sights, but the bead is not threaded and it came with a magnetic Hi-Viz the mounts right behind the bead. It's not just the POI, it's the pattern as well, seemed a bit too open at 25, so I'm wondering if anyone has a choke recommendation. I've tried posting pics, but haven't had luck. First they were too big, now it won't let me load a jpeg. I'm posting from my iPad, so I'm a little little on being able to format pics.
My guess is the Hi-Viz front sight is the problem, I'd try some williams or true glo rifle sights or a red dot , keep in mind your not gonna get super tight patterns with 4's, there's just not that many pellets in the load to have a tight looking pattern, so it may be better than your thinking, 100+ in a 10" circle is all you need at 40yds. If I was gonna shoot lead it would be #6 Winchester LB xr, with a Carlson long beard choke.
I added a red dot to my shotgun this year and I'm really enjoying it. It's a little bit of a process to get it on an 870 since they're not tapped but it's super nice when you get it set up. You have a much finer dot to aim with and you can adjust to fix you poi issues. I would also look at shooting some 6's to help with your numbers. Good luck.
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I totally agree about the big target, a 3'x3' is fine, heck I use a 4'x4' target. Being able to see your ENTIRE pattern is key to figuring out the what's-what with your pattern. You can get rolls of contractor paper @ Lowes or The Home Depot to use as patterning material. If I'm not mistaken your choke is a .665 ? And, BTW the undertaker is a fine choke, however if you're not getting even close to the pattern you want ,you prolly need to get a different choke. Typically for 6s you would want to use something around a .655 or even .650 exit diameter, for 5s a
660.,and for your bigger 4s a .665 or a
670. Now, keep in mind these are just recommended "starting points" finding out for sure means trial & error ,which can get rather expensive but if you have buddies that shoot the same type of choke as you ,ya'll can swap up chokes& ammo til' you find something that works for you. Look on here in ALL the possible "for sale" categories as there is usually some good deals on choke tubes. Next, dependent upon your budget you may even look into a Burris speed bead mount system with a Fast Fire 3. It fits in between your stock & receiver and will alleviate the issue of getting your receiver drilled & tapped. Or use fiber optic sights that clamp on the rail of your gun, some fine options are the Pro series Magnum gobble dot (MPN:TG944A) or my personal choice is the Tru-point xtreme Turkey/deer universal FO sight (MPN:TG960) this one comes with both a traditional 2 dot rear sight OR you can use the peep sight. Both these are from Truglo and both are windage & elevation equipped. HiViz has some good choices as well,and William's are very popular too. Don't hesitate to reach out to us here on Olg Gobbler as there are PLENTY of folks willing to lend advice & ideas to help. GOOD LUCK and keep us posted on what you do with your 870 and some patterning pictures as well!!!
Quote from: aclawrence on April 05, 2019, 10:24:58 PM
I added a red dot to my shotgun this year and I'm really enjoying it. It's a little bit of a process to get it on an 870 since they're not tapped but it's super nice when you get it set up. You have a much finer dot to aim with and you can adjust to fix you poi issues. I would also look at shooting some 6's to help with your numbers. Good luck.
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This in spades. Red dot and throw some 6's. Plenty of smiths that can mount the dot if you need help.
Quote from: Escout711 on April 05, 2019, 08:28:08 PM
Quote from: Tom Foolery on April 05, 2019, 08:20:31 PM
Lots of guns have POI problems. Williams Sluggers or TruGlo pro series if you want fiber optics. I use the Williams with ghost ring on mine.
I shoot at a 36x36" sheet of paper, you'll see your whole pattern with it.
Thanks, I definitely want to upgrade the sights, but the bead is not threaded and it came with a magnetic Hi-Viz the mounts right behind the bead. It's not just the POI, it's the pattern as well, seemed a bit too open at 25, so I'm wondering if anyone has a choke recommendation. I've tried posting pics, but haven't had luck. First they were too big, now it won't let me load a jpeg. I'm posting from my iPad, so I'm a little little on being able to format pics.
The Williams or TruGlo will bolt onto your rib and both are fully adjustable or put a dot on it.
The LB #5 shot ok from my 870. The other 2 loads you have I wouldn't expect much of a pattern from.
Lots of good chokes, I shoot a Kicks .660 in my 20" barreled 870. None of mine shoot 4's, I'm a fan of lots of pellets on target so that works out good.
At 42yds all 3" shells
LB 5's averaged 157 and splotchy
LB 6's averaged 192 and even
Winchester HV 5's averaged 115
Winchester HV 6's averaged 118
H13 6's 160
H13 7's 240
Nitro H378 4x5x7 240
As others have said, you have a POA/POI issue. First thing is get 3' x 3' or 4' x 4' paper for patterning. Get some dove loads and shoot at 12 to 15 yards. This will give you the POA/POI feedback you need. Then you can move forward with sights or scope and choke and shell selection.
Quote from: Escout711 on April 05, 2019, 08:28:08 PM
Quote from: Tom Foolery on April 05, 2019, 08:20:31 PM
Lots of guns have POI problems. Williams Sluggers or TruGlo pro series if you want fiber optics. I use the Williams with ghost ring on mine.
I shoot at a 36x36" sheet of paper, you'll see your whole pattern with it.
Thanks, I definitely want to upgrade the sights, but the bead is not threaded and it came with a magnetic Hi-Viz the mounts right behind the bead. It's not just the POI, it's the pattern as well, seemed a bit too open at 25, so I'm wondering if anyone has a choke recommendation. I've tried posting pics, but haven't had luck. First they were too big, now it won't let me load a jpeg. I'm posting from my iPad, so I'm a little little on being able to format pics.
If you have a smart phone download the tapatalk app. It makes posting pictures very simple. I was having the same issue w/ pics prior to tapatalk
You may or may not be able to fix the poi issue with the adjustable sights but for $50 it might be worth a try before going red dot.
Definitely try a couple different chokes and use the bigger paper so you can see the whole pattern of each shell/choke combo
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Wow, thanks for the great advice, it's appreciated. To answer a few of the questions...
-The gun came already tapped for a mount, so that part is already done and an option.
-The supplied Remington Super Full and the Undertaker are both .665.
-I do have the rear sight set from a TruGlo Tru Bead set I used to have on my Benelli Nova.
-I will try using the Tapatalk to post some pics. At 25 the pattern is definitely deadly, but just not quite as tight as I'd expect. Just guessing, but I would say 150 pellets inside a 7" circle.
Quote from: Escout711 on April 06, 2019, 09:04:09 AM
Wow, thanks for the great advice, it's appreciated. To answer a few of the questions...
-The gun came already tapped for a mount, so that part is already done and an option.
-The supplied Remington Super Full and the Undertaker are both .665.
-I do have the rear sight set from a TruGlo Tru Bead set I used to have on my Benelli Nova.
-I will try using the Tapatalk to post some pics. At 25 the pattern is definitely deadly, but just not quite as tight as I'd expect. Just guessing, but I would say 150 pellets inside a 7" circle.
Tru glo gobble dot magnum pro is the set you want. It has the adjustable rear sight for wind age and elevation. You might be able to correct your POI with that
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Here are some pics for reference. That's a 7" circle at 25 yards
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Quote from: Escout711 on April 06, 2019, 03:06:15 PM
Here are some pics for reference. That's a 7" circle at 25 yards
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Try a different choke and big paper. The 4s don't seem too bad, they look like they hit where you aimed. But you should easily be able to get way better looking patterns with #5. Maybe try some 3 inch shells also. You shouldn't need to spend too much money or time getting a 12 gauge to shoot good patterns out to 40 yards.
Idk if this helps any but I like to shoot a box or two of target loads through a new choke/gun, then clean it good, and then do some patterning.
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Quote from: DBell on April 06, 2019, 03:27:22 PM
Try a different choke and big paper. The 4s don't seem too bad, they look like they hit where you aimed. But you should easily be able to get way better looking patterns with #5. Maybe try some 3 inch shells also. You shouldn't need to spend too much money or time getting a 12 gauge to shoot good patterns out to 40 yards.
Idk if this helps any but I like to shoot a box or two of target loads through a new choke/gun, then clean it good, and then do some patterning.
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I was running 3" in the Longbeard and the Remington, only the Federal was 3.5". I think the big paper is the ticket seeing where the point of impact is. I aim for the caruncles, and that's where I was aiming at the range. Good tip on the target loads, thank you.
My 2 cents if use nothing but the factory bead and shoot it off a bench with sandbags. Use the factory full choke and try 3" Longbeards in size 5. That will tell you if you have a POI problem. Since that gun is drilled and tapped already, its easy to stick a Red Dot on it if you indeed have POI issues. PS. Try more then one brand of shells, as I've heard that LB's do sometime shoot to a different POI then some of the others.
Quick update, bought a set of Williams Fire Sights with the ghost ring rear. Can't wait to set it up!
A couple of other things for you....make sure the barrel nut is tight and not just hand tight. Wrap a rag around the nut and turn it with a pair of pliers/channel locs to get a couple of extra clicks out of it.
You also might want to deep clean the barrel and maybe even polish it. Here are a couple of links to explain how to do them. Doing both help the patterns from my 870 SM.
https://allaboutshooting.com/blogs/blog/98772615-deep-cleaning-a-shotgun-barrel
http://oldgobbler.com/Forum/index.php/topic,182.0.html
Well... After another trip to the range today, I decided that this gun isn't for me. I am going back to my Nova. Just will not pattern for crap, the action is garbage, and every time I shoot the trigger guard hits my middle finger and it's now so swollen I can't close it. Pulled out the Nova and immediately felt great and I guess shouldn't have tried to turn my back on her LOL! Really disappointed in the poor quality of the Remington. Sometimes the action would stick, and a few times the spent shell would eject like a semiauto.
As an 870 owner myself, before giving up on the 870 it may be worth trying a couple things.
1. As with any pump gun, pulling the gun nice and tight to the shoulder is good but don't pull it into the shoulder by using the forearm. Use the palm swell/trigger hand. Pulling the forearm will make it eject like a semi-auto and cause the barrel to swing as the load of shot is traveling down the barrel, which obviously decreases pattern density.
Try dry firing while pulling on the forearm and you'll see exactly what I mean.
As an added bonus, pulling the stock tight to your shoulder with the trigger hand instead of forearm keeps the trigger guard from banging your finger.
I'd bet the bank that if you try that your patterns will tighten right up.
Quote from: DoubleD on April 12, 2019, 10:21:21 AM
As an 870 owner myself, before giving up on the 870 it may be worth trying a couple things.
1. As with any pump gun, pulling the gun nice and tight to the shoulder is good but don't pull it into the shoulder by using the forearm. Use the palm swell/trigger hand. Pulling the forearm will make it eject like a semi-auto and cause the barrel to swing as the load of shot is traveling down the barrel, which obviously decreases pattern density.
Try dry firing while pulling on the forearm and you'll see exactly what I mean.
As an added bonus, pulling the stock tight to your shoulder with the trigger hand instead of forearm keeps the trigger guard from banging your finger.
I'd bet the bank that if you try that your patterns will tighten right up.
I appreciate the tips. I just think I'm going to quit while I am ahead. The Nova shoots really well, I've killed a pile of turkeys with it, and it doesn't beat the heck out of my knuckle. The weird part is that I have an older Wingmaster, and the knuckle getting hit by the trigger guard has never been an issue for me.
Quote from: Escout711 on April 12, 2019, 03:51:03 PM
Quote from: DoubleD on April 12, 2019, 10:21:21 AM
As an 870 owner myself, before giving up on the 870 it may be worth trying a couple things.
1. As with any pump gun, pulling the gun nice and tight to the shoulder is good but don't pull it into the shoulder by using the forearm. Use the palm swell/trigger hand. Pulling the forearm will make it eject like a semi-auto and cause the barrel to swing as the load of shot is traveling down the barrel, which obviously decreases pattern density.
Try dry firing while pulling on the forearm and you'll see exactly what I mean.
As an added bonus, pulling the stock tight to your shoulder with the trigger hand instead of forearm keeps the trigger guard from banging your finger.
I'd bet the bank that if you try that your patterns will tighten right up.
I appreciate the tips. I just think I'm going to quit while I am ahead. The Nova shoots really well, I've killed a pile of turkeys with it, and it doesn't beat the heck out of my knuckle. The weird part is that I have an older Wingmaster, and the knuckle getting hit by the trigger guard has never been an issue for me.
That's weird. I wouldn't be into that either. Love my 20 gauge 870's though. Never had issues with mine. Both are smooth as glass, and both are the cheap expresses that should have actions that feel like sand and can't eject shells. Trade the supermag in for a 20. She will treat the knuckle nice
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Every year I start thinking about a new turkey gun but my ole mossberg just keeps staying dependable. I was seriously looking at that gun . Its stories like this that keep me straight.
Quote from: Escout711 on April 05, 2019, 08:04:43 PM
Hello all. I picked up a brand new Remington 870 Super Mag 12 gauge on Monday and took it to the range yesterday. I was really disappointed by the early results and looking for some direction. I started off at 25 yards and while the pattern was certainly deadly, it was more like I would expect at 40. But the real issue is that at 40 yards I could not get a pellet onto paper. The pattern was flying so high that I needed to aim 2 feet low to get any hits. I was using both the supplied Remington Super full choke, and a regular Undertaker choke. I was shooting 3" Longbeard #5, 3" Remington Premier, and 3.5" Federal #4. I'm still scratching my head about how the pattern could totally disappear in 15 yards. Any guidance would be appreciated. The targets were a last minute scramble, my printer ran out of toner.
stop using number 4s and get yourself a red dot. Number 4s are a complete waste of time. 5s and 6s is what id be shooting and will easily kill birds out to 40 yards and a bit further but we cant discuss that on this forum. Id buy a box of each and see what patterns best for you at 40 yards. If both are yielding over 100 pellets in a 10inch diameter circle at 40 yards, then use which ever one is better at closer yardages....like 25 yards.
Bought a new 870SM a few years ago and couldn't get it to pattern with numerous chokes and shells. Looking down the barrel there were significant tooling marks and rings. Took it to my gunsmith and he took a significant amount of material out of the barrel with professional polishing tools. Started with fairly rough and worked his way down. That gun now turns my best patterns to date with lead and HTL loads. It will shoot 160's with a Ventilator .655 and 3/2/6's lead loads. 280's with Hevi 3/2/7's
Quote from: Bigeclipse on April 15, 2019, 08:20:10 AM
Quote from: Escout711 on April 05, 2019, 08:04:43 PM
Hello all. I picked up a brand new Remington 870 Super Mag 12 gauge on Monday and took it to the range yesterday. I was really disappointed by the early results and looking for some direction. I started off at 25 yards and while the pattern was certainly deadly, it was more like I would expect at 40. But the real issue is that at 40 yards I could not get a pellet onto paper. The pattern was flying so high that I needed to aim 2 feet low to get any hits. I was using both the supplied Remington Super full choke, and a regular Undertaker choke. I was shooting 3" Longbeard #5, 3" Remington Premier, and 3.5" Federal #4. I'm still scratching my head about how the pattern could totally disappear in 15 yards. Any guidance would be appreciated. The targets were a last minute scramble, my printer ran out of toner.
stop using number 4s and get yourself a red dot. Number 4s are a complete waste of time. 5s and 6s is what id be shooting and will easily kill birds out to 40 yards and a bit further but we cant discuss that on this forum. Id buy a box of each and see what patterns best for you at 40 yards. If both are yielding over 100 pellets in a 10inch diameter circle at 40 yards, then use which ever one is better at closer yardages....like 25 yards.
I only was running the 4's because I had a box on hand, I think I shot 2 of them. The vast majority of shooting was 3" Longbeard #5 and Remington Supreme #5.
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Quote from: Longshanks on April 15, 2019, 08:56:19 AM
Bought a new 870SM a few years ago and couldn't get it to pattern with numerous chokes and shells. Looking down the barrel there were significant tooling marks and rings. Took it to my gunsmith and he took a significant amount of material out of the barrel with professional polishing tools. Started with fairly rough and worked his way down. That gun now turns my best patterns to date with lead and HTL loads. It will shoot 160's with a Ventilator .655 and 3/2/6's lead loads. 280's with Hevi 3/2/7's
That's not a good reflection on Remington. It's a shame, I grew up in Upstate NY in Remington country, and had a girlfriend whose uncle worked at the Remington factory until the day he died. I'm a Remington guy, I have a Remington 700 mountain rifle as my primary deer rifle, and an 870 Wingmaster.
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[/quote]I have a Remington 700 mountain rifle as my primary deer rifle
[/quote]
I went to buy one of the Mountain Rifle DM's a long time ago that was at the store and showed up and it was gone, could not fine another one with the same stock, it was a beauty to look at for sure.
Quote from: Sir-diealot on April 15, 2019, 12:24:38 PM
I have a Remington 700 mountain rifle as my primary deer rifle
[/quote]
I went to buy one of the Mountain Rifle DM's a long time ago that was at the store and showed up and it was gone, could not fine another one with the same stock, it was a beauty to look at for sure.
[/quote]
Mine has the floor plate instead of the DM and she's a beauty. .280 Remington.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190415/8c0b9b0c81a9e2e3d3ace87d275eca5c.jpg)
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my 870 supermag had similar issues, cant remember where mine hit in perspective to looking straight down the rail and the bead. You should be able to fix that by mounting an optic or a set of adjustable sights
I killed turkeys with my 870 it shot ok i put an aimpoint on well i drilled and taped it after a short time it only would shoot 6 shot federals good . i switched to an 835 and kinda left the remington alone , i will say this the newer less than 5 years old remington are having issues . i have a friend that has sent his versa max back several times it shoots 8 in to the right at 20 yds .
Quote from: Escout711 on April 05, 2019, 08:28:08 PM
Quote from: Tom Foolery on April 05, 2019, 08:20:31 PM
Lots of guns have POI problems. Williams Sluggers or TruGlo pro series if you want fiber optics. I use the Williams with ghost ring on mine.
I shoot at a 36x36" sheet of paper, you'll see your whole pattern with it.
Thanks, I definitely want to upgrade the sights, but the bead is not threaded and it came with a magnetic Hi-Viz the mounts right behind the bead. It's not just the POI, it's the pattern as well, seemed a bit too open at 25, so I'm wondering if anyone has a choke recommendation. I've tried posting pics, but haven't had luck. First they were too big, now it won't let me load a jpeg. I'm posting from my iPad, so I'm a little little on being able to format pics.
Had the same issue using my iPhone. Use the Tapatalk app. Picture problem solved.
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Quote from: aclawrence on April 05, 2019, 10:24:58 PM
I added a red dot to my shotgun this year and I'm really enjoying it. It's a little bit of a process to get it on an 870 since they're not tapped but it's super nice when you get it set up. You have a much finer dot to aim with and you can adjust to fix you poi issues. I would also look at shooting some 6's to help with your numbers. Good luck.
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Ab....so....lutely!! Optics and some 6's will cure what ails you! I know it can be done, but I know I'll personally never hunt turkeys without an optic.
I bought a SPS-T 870back around 1996 or97 that shot the same as you are describing, I marked the underside of the barrel and sent it back to remington and when I received it back I had the same barrel . I was kinda upset cause I thought they haven't done anything to this gun but after shooting it the poi and poa were dead on and it shot a awesome pattern, they also sent a test pattern back with the gun. That shotgun has killed alot of birds since then. I don't know what they did to it but it was a different gun performance wise to the one I bought.