I understand that there are benefits with a 20 that you are unable to get with a 12 but the 12 has more bb's and the ability to reach out there a little further. What is it with a 20 that out weighs what I find better benefits with a 12?
Lighter, shorter and with the new HTL loads all the range anyone wants. A lot of birds have died over the years with 12 gauge lead loads that won't come close to the numbers that a 20 will put up with HTL. It's hard for me to justify a 12 after using my 20 gauge this season, really hard actually. I have 2 good shooting 12's but neither gives me anything over my 20 except weight and recoil. My patterns are not as good as a lot of them on here and I honestly have a soild 10yd cushion if I misjudge one at 40yds, I really don't need anything else.
Quote from: Tom Foolery on April 23, 2013, 09:21:18 AM
Lighter, shorter and with the new HTL loads all the range anyone wants. A lot of birds have died over the years with 12 gauge lead loads that won't come close to the numbers that a 20 will put up with HTL. It's hard for me to justify a 12 after using my 20 gauge this season, really hard actually. I have 2 good shooting 12's but neither gives me anything over my 20 except weight and recoil. My patterns are not as good as a lot of them on here and I honestly have a soild 10yd cushion if I misjudge one at 40yds, I really don't need anything else.
This.
I carried a 12 some this season and will probably continue to do so, but my little 20 will kill one plenty far enough.
Quote from: Tom Foolery on April 23, 2013, 09:21:18 AM
Lighter, shorter and with the new HTL loads all the range anyone wants. A lot of birds have died over the years with 12 gauge lead loads that won't come close to the numbers that a 20 will put up with HTL. It's hard for me to justify a 12 after using my 20 gauge this season, really hard actually. I have 2 good shooting 12's but neither gives me anything over my 20 except weight and recoil. My patterns are not as good as a lot of them on here and I honestly have a soild 10yd cushion if I misjudge one at 40yds, I really don't need anything else.
Tom says it all, I have no need to go to my 12 guage if I am putting up patterns just as good with the 20 with much less recoil and weight, etc.
I can promise you that my 20ga with 21" barrel w/reloads patterns as good as any 12ga with over the counter ammunition. If we talk reloads, then yes the 12ga is still king. However, how dead is dead?
The entire reason I turkey hunt is getting them in close and fooling the bird. If it was for just meat, I'd use a rifle. :fud:
The 20ga will kill a bird further than I need to be shooting at one to enjoy this game. So for that reason I carry the 20. It's much lighter and easier to carry than the 12ga and the barrel hardly sticks above my head on my shoulder to grab every limb I walk by. Plus if I need to one arm jap a turkey that walks up behind me I can do that with this 20ga. ;D
I've only converted 7 hunting buddies to 20's that thought 12's were the only way to go once they saw how lethal it was and how enjoyable it was to carry/hunt with.
You kill a turkey by shooting him in the head, not the body. The pellets from a 20 gauge shotgun are leaving the barrel at the same speed as are the pellets from a 12 gauge. By taking a little time and asking questions on here, you can put together a deadly 20 gauge combination of factory loaded shells and a commercial or custom-made choke tube that will concentrate an inescapably lethal pattern centered on the turkey's head at 40 yards. They will kill him. Out to 40 yards. Dead. Focus your attention on what is needed to kill him dead. It is not one's ego that does the job. This is being proven over and over again by the exponentially growing pile of dead turkeys who's last sound that they heard in this world was the roar of a 20 gauge shotgun.
Dead.
FullChoke
I have a new 11-87 super mag 12ga... nice gun but a little heavy. thinking about dumping it for this SA Turkey Thug 20 ga... http://mossberg.com/product/shotguns-autoloading-sa-20-turkey-thug/75782-0
I hate the idea of mossberg.. but I hear their guns are better when compared to 20 years ago (last time I had one) Plus this is the only 20 ga that is close to what I want.
If it helps you out, consider that was not made by Mossberg. Mossberg has them made mostly to their specifications by an outfit in Turkey.
Thanks for all the replies. I might just have to pick me up a 20
Are any other words needed? Just get one...it's just money.
(http://i1031.photobucket.com/albums/y372/Gophert/Gun%20Patterns/IC562Big20XLTimPattern_zps1a5e9a5a.jpg) (http://s1031.photobucket.com/user/Gophert/media/Gun%20Patterns/IC562Big20XLTimPattern_zps1a5e9a5a.jpg.html)
I just ordered a Moss SA20 - on the 20ga bandwagon now...
Besides the 870 what would you guys recommend?
I have 2 870's setup and I just added an 11-87 sportsman and so far it has been great. It is throwing some really awesome patterns with Hevi 7's.
Quote from: IowaGobblers on April 23, 2013, 04:15:59 PM
Besides the 870 what would you guys recommend?
Mossy Super Bantam. 5.25 lbs. It comes drilled and tapped for scope or red dot mount. It has a camo finish. With the right choke and load, it takes a back seat to no gun.
Quote from: gobblergls on April 23, 2013, 07:23:31 PM
Quote from: IowaGobblers on April 23, 2013, 04:15:59 PM
Besides the 870 what would you guys recommend?
Mossy Super Bantam. 5.25 lbs. It comes drilled and tapped for scope or red dot mount. It has a camo finish. With the right choke and load, it takes a back seat to no gun.
These are out of my daughter's Super Bantam. Great shooting gun.
Sent from my Motorola RAZR MAXX using Tapatalk 2
I think the biggest mis conception is that a 12 ga shoots further. Physics affects how far the shot travels not the gauge of the gun.
A number 6 pellet going 1100 fps is a #6 pellet going 1100 fps. It doesn't magically transform into something else because it came out of a bigger bore gun.
I've spent many hours patterning 12 ga, not as much as some but TONs. I never counted pellets, but I can tell you my patterns used to fall apart at 35 yards with 3.5 and 3 inch loads. I dropped back to 2 3/4 loads to hold my pattern. My little 20 holds its pattern and puts up Immpressive patterns with ammo that cost me half of what 12 ga does. I'll never go back, and if others don't want to change, that's fine with me too because demand for shells won't drive the price up, and I'll sleep fine knowing I've killed turkeys just as far and Further than any of my 12 s ever did.
Im here to tell you folks that this year was my first year turkey hunting with a 20 ga. I bought a Benelli M2 20 & with a Sumtoy choke & Fed HW 7's it will dump a gobbler just as good as a 12 ga. will. Lightweight , hardly no recoil, & a true pleasure to shoot. I stll have 5 or 6 12 ga. turkey guns but to be honest I really dont know if I will hunt with them. I really thought I would be under gunned using a 20 but by no means is that the case. I am truely a firm believer in the 20 Ga.
vaturkey :newmascot:
Talking to my old man about this debate and he is very traditional and set on the 12. I like the sound of what you guys are saying but my dad did have one big hang up. He is stuck on the more bb's you get in the 12 ga.loads over the 20. What do you guys have on that topic?
Quote from: IowaGobblers on April 23, 2013, 10:04:04 PM
Talking to my old man about this debate and he is very traditional and set on the 12. I like the sound of what you guys are saying but my dad did have one big hang up. He is stuck on the more bb's you get in the 12 ga.loads over the 20. What do you guys have on that topic?
He is probably right if you shoot factory shells, but ask him how dead is 120 pellets in a 10" circle verses 200. Either way, the benefits of a lighter, less recoil gun way out weigh an excess higher pellet count IMO.
sent from Tim's Tweaked Out Evo
Quote from: IowaGobblers on April 23, 2013, 10:04:04 PM
Talking to my old man about this debate and he is very traditional and set on the 12. I like the sound of what you guys are saying but my dad did have one big hang up. He is stuck on the more bb's you get in the 12 ga.loads over the 20. What do you guys have on that topic?
Also, if I shoot lead 6's out of my 935 in the flavor of 3.5" 2.25 ounce loads I average 150. If I shoot Hevi 7's out of my 20 I average 165+ up to 175. Now if I shoot Hevi's or Nitro's out of the 935 that is a different story. I am in the 280 range then.
The 20 really shines with Hevi shot.
Bigger than the leap from lead to Hevi-shot 13 with a reported density of 12 g/cc is the leap from Hevi-shot 13 to almost pure tungsten shot with a density of 18 g/cc. Pixie dust 9's have the downrange penetration of lead #4 shot. This enables subgauge guns to challenge the mythical superiority of 12 gauge guns shooting traditional turkey loads. With a higher pellet count of 9s versus 4s, to duplicate the shot count of 1 oz. of 18 g/cc tungsten 9's, the load weight of #4 lead would be 2.5 oz. The leap from Federal htl with a density of 15 g/cc to 18 g/cc tungsen shot is not as great, but it is still bigger than from lead to Hevi-shot 13. HTL in any density has changed the game.
In order to be able to craft a suitable answer for your dad, we need to know how "old school" he actually is. Does he shoot lead shot only? What size shot pellets does he usually shoot? How many ounces of shot are in the shells that he shoots? Does he use a shotgun with interchangeable chokes? Has he patterned his gun with the same shells that he hunts with? What is his actual pellet count in a 10" and a 20" diameter circle at 40 yards?
Relying solely on having more pellets in a shell will let you down when the time comes for you to pull the trigger.
FC
He shoots copper plated lead in 3 in 1 7/8 oz shot #6's out of a bps with interchangeable chokes (he does have a tightwad choke) and he does really pattern his gun just sights in his red dot with the same loads he hunts with
I used that same gun, gauge and load as your dad for many years. I killed and wounded many birds with it. I have patterned several choke tubes and loads combinations through it, so I am talking from my own personal experience here.
I am going to guess that he is seeing a pattern with 130-140 pellets in a 10" circle at a taped 40 yards with that combination. This is what I would typically get on a good day at the gun range.
Ironically, this is the same pellet count that I get with my 870 20 gauge shooting 1.5 ounces of Federal Heavyweight #7s with a Remington Super Full choke tube. Performance, where it really counts, is almost a total match between the two. (Actually, the Hwt 7's carry lethal foot/pounds of energy further downrange than #6 lead, and I won't even bring up TSS 9's).
So, with that being somewhat equal enough in the pellet department, what are the actual advantages of the 20 gauge over a 12 gauge? Weight, maneuverability, felt recoil and cost of gun and shells. The ammunition, gun and choke tube manufacturers have all stepped up to the 20 gauge plate and are putting out products that are able to deliver continually better performance and are reasonably priced.
Honestly, I felt a twinge of sadness when I decided to switch from my BPS 12 gauge to my Rem 870 20 gauge. I got over it pretty quickly a couple of years ago when I shot my first gobbler on opening day here in MS with the 20. It knocked that bad boy over backwards into a ditch at a distance of 37 paces. I was completely convinced from that day forward that there was a better way, and I have been in it ever since!
Tell your Dad that we will welcome him into the fold with open arms and free flowing first-hand information to help make his transition successful. We can't help him with that twinge of sadness though.
Good luck. ;D
FullChoke
Thanks for all the great info we are strongly considering it and he hes not convinced I think im gonna get 1!
FWIW, my dad was from the same old school train of thought. He used to turkey hunt with a 32" full barrel 12ga before the 'ol shoulder breaking 835 came out with the 24" interchangable choke 3.5" 12ga. He sent that gun off more times than I can count tweaking it and having chokes developed for his lead shells. This was long before the HTL shells came out. Then he moved to the HTL shells and have a choke worked up for the gun.
I'll never forget him laughing at me about a 20ga with this TSS #9 crap as he called it.
Guess what. 3 turkey kills in front of him with a 21" barrel 870 20ga pushing TSS #9's has him now carrying one. His 835 hasn't been in the turkey woods in 3 years. He's a believer now.
my dad (70) and all the old school are the same way. I told him I shoot #7's and he thought I was crazy. He was thinking dove shot #7 like most do. When they think about turkey shot they think #4 or #5 with a good old flush full choke. They don't know anything about these new HEVI loads and chokes of today..
My dad thinks that shooting HW #7's will give up a lot of range/won't transfer enough energy down range. How do I explain this?
Quote from: IowaGobblers on April 25, 2013, 11:44:01 AM
My dad thinks that shooting HW #7's will give up a lot of range/won't transfer enough energy down range. How do I explain this?
You crush a tom at 40 in front of him with the shells.
Quote from: IowaGobblers on April 25, 2013, 11:44:01 AM
My dad thinks that shooting HW #7's will give up a lot of range/won't transfer enough energy down range. How do I explain this?
Try this: Most know that when shooting steel shot, one must go to a larger shot to have the effective range of lead shot which is much denser than steel shot of the same size. The opposite is true of HTL. Assuming same fps at muzzle, because it is significantly denser than lead, the shift goes in the other direction: Smaller HTL accomplishes the same energy downrange as does larger lead shot, but with the added feature of more pellets in the load compared with the same load (weight) in lead.
Quote from: FL-Boss on April 24, 2013, 03:01:40 PM
my dad (70) and all the old school are the same way. I told him I shoot #7's and he thought I was crazy. He was thinking dove shot #7 like most do. When they think about turkey shot they think #4 or #5 with a good old flush full choke. They don't know anything about these new HEVI loads and chokes of today..
If he is "old school" then he knows about Kenny Morgan. If he knows about Kenny Morgan then he also knows Kenny Morgan killed over 500 gobblers in his lifetime. The majority of them with a 410 and number 7 lead.
You need to go way back to the beginning of this 20 gauge section. There are older post that show penetration test. They show true scientific data on how hard the HTL 7 s, 8, and even 9s hit.