So I read this article last week that came in my email from the Virginia DWR. A very interesting take. Not sure if I buy it completely. I do think weather plays a huge role in the population and survival of young poults. Curious as to you alls take. I also don't doubt the coyote argument here, except I do think poults could be easy prey to both yotes and especially foxes.
Here's most of the report:
As is often the case with all things hunting, Virginia's upcoming spring gobbler season offers a mixture of good and bad news. Virginia Department of Wildlife Resources (DWR) Upland Game Bird Biologist Mike Dye believes that hunters should expect solid action; however, turkey numbers have declined in pockets over the past half decade or so.
"Generally, 2-year-old gobblers make up the bulk of the harvest," he said. "They gobble the most, and are also the age group most likely to come to calls. In 2021, we had a relatively good poult per hen (pph) ratio of 2.7, which was much better than the 2020 and 2022 pph ratios, each of which was 1.9.
"There is a caveat with the 2020 figure, though. That year was the beginning of the pandemic, and staff drove fewer miles looking for birds, which definitely affected the number of sightings. But the reality is that there probably won't be as many 3-year-olds and jakes around this spring."
Dye believes the turkey population decline is not because our birds are being overhunted or because of coyotes and other predators.
"Mortality from weather is the number one killer of turkeys, specifically poults under two weeks of age," he said. "Poults can't fly up to roost until they are from 10 days to two weeks old. And for the past several springs during that time of vulnerability, we've had unseasonably, cold, wet rains. The change in weather patterns and the ill-timed weather events do appear to be linked to changes in the overall climate.
"This isn't unique to Virginia," Dye continued. "States all over the Southeast are experiencing the same population changes, and now it's starting to spread to the Northeast states as well. Some people like to blame the population declines on raccoons and coyotes. But the last 20 years, we haven't seen a population increase in raccoons, and studies show that coyotes actually may have a positive effect on turkey populations because they prey on some of our nest predators. Hunters often report that they've seen coyotes stalking or chasing turkeys. But coyotes are usually about as successful catching healthy, adult turkeys as my dog is catching squirrels in my backyard."
Thanks for posting.
So the official position of the Virginia DWR is that weather is the most important driver of turkey populations in Virginia and climate change is the driver behind current weather patterns? It would be instructive to know the official position of all the state wildlife agencies as regards turkey populations. I wonder how much they collaborate.
I actually agree with most of this. I have spent hours thinking about this and weather is the biggest common denominator that has changed. when we had dense populations we still had a fairly robust predator population. I was just thinking the other day it is most likely weather or disease. Sure we can help by reducing predators in a stressed population, but it is not going to save our flocks. This is a pretty big swing in some of my previous thoughts.
I agree that the "weather" has an effect. In the colder north here in WNY biologists have always blamed poor populations on "cold wet Springs". I noticed that the population is way better further north closer to the St.Lawrence river area and away from the Great Lakes and the inland Finger Lakes regions in the middle of the state, which holds better pockets of birds. Here where I live, we get what meteorologists call the "lake effect" rain. I truly believe that's the reason along with trapping in decline.
The problem with his statement is that it isn't backed up by any data, other than the population data. No weather data, no climate data, just a theory. Certainly a wet Spring has a negative effect on that year, but he makes no attempt to compare the weather the past few springs with the previous years. Every state is not seeing equal increases in rain in June (or whenever poulting season is in that state). So, he's just throwing out anecdotes and theories, no science at all on the matter. For some reason with the rapid increase in predator (coyote) levels across the Southeast/Northeast, we see a decline in turkey populations, but he claims that has no effect, or a positive effect, and uses his dog catching squirrels as an analogy. There is no science that says that increasing coyote populations increase turkey populations as he alleges, and we are seeing the opposite play out in big way. So, essentially I think he wants to blame "climate change" as the boogie man, and is making a very poor argument to do it, not backed by any facts or data or science. We all know we have coyotes in places in Virginia now where we had none a decade ago, and the populations are higher across the state. We know we have smaller turkey populations that correlate almost exactly to the rise in coyote populations. Is the rise causative? I don't know that, but I believe that it is much more likely the cause than general "climate change". The notion is almost absurd, as colder wetter states to the North had great populations, and hotter wetter states to the South had great populations, so neither increased rain, increased heat, or increased cold seems to the the sustained issue. Coyote populations are the identifiable variable, and some people are so set on glorifying their abundance, that they don't want that to be the issue for anything. Some of those same people have a religious style affection for "climate change" as the answer to all questions.
To what degree weather plays a role, it's hard to place a value on it. But, I would agree that it is a part of the overall puzzle, and in my opinion a big piece. In my home state, in the last 20 years we have had just a couple years of what you would consider dry nesting and brooding seasons. And our poult to hen counts were higher in those. Example, 2012 was very dry during that period as compared to before and after. The overall hatches were solid and by 2014 the hunting quality improved greatly as a result. On the flip side, 2017, 2018, and 2019 were extremely wet and we had negative results, with a couple poult per hen counts below 1. Was it all weather? No, but from an anecdotal point of view it sure seems to be a big factor.
here's a link to the Va. Data
https://dwr.virginia.gov/blog/random-thoughts-and-observations-on-coyotes/
Back when I worked for The Division of wildlife I once saw a paper presented on Coyote diets and interactions with wildlife and it indicated most of their diet is rodents, scavenged dead animals and and fruits/berries. Birds were not a large part of their diet except by opportunity. The one game animal they did take on a consistent basis was fawns. The study showed they could take up to 26% of new fawns. I don't remember the author to find it in any of the data bases but that is what I remember. I think there is data on weather events. It's not necessarily the overall weather changes, but the wrong weather events at critical times that get's poults. I am not trying to argue anyone's side or point just sharing anopinion and some facts as I know them.
Quote from: Haymarket on March 08, 2023, 08:37:59 AM
The problem with his statement is that it isn't backed up by any data, other than the population data. No weather data, no climate data, just a theory. Certainly a wet Spring has a negative effect on that year, but he makes no attempt to compare the weather the past few springs with the previous years. Every state is not seeing equal increases in rain in June (or whenever poulting season is in that state). So, he's just throwing out anecdotes and theories, no science at all on the matter. For some reason with the rapid increase in predator (coyote) levels across the Southeast/Northeast, we see a decline in turkey populations, but he claims that has no effect, or a positive effect, and uses his dog catching squirrels as an analogy. There is no science that says that increasing coyote populations increase turkey populations as he alleges, and we are seeing the opposite play out in big way. So, essentially I think he wants to blame "climate change" as the boogie man, and is making a very poor argument to do it, not backed by any facts or data or science. We all know we have coyotes in places in Virginia now where we had none a decade ago, and the populations are higher across the state. We know we have smaller turkey populations that correlate almost exactly to the rise in coyote populations. Is the rise causative? I don't know that, but I believe that it is much more likely the cause than general "climate change". The notion is almost absurd, as colder wetter states to the North had great populations, and hotter wetter states to the South had great populations, so neither increased rain, increased heat, or increased cold seems to the the sustained issue. Coyote populations are the identifiable variable, and some people are so set on glorifying their abundance, that they don't want that to be the issue for anything. Some of those same people have a religious style affection for "climate change" as the answer to all questions.
Valid points. I should have clarified that this was the forecast for this years turkey season and not a detailed report of population in the state.
Weather is alot of a factor in poult survival. To wet and to dry, both have large adverse effects if into play at the wrong time of the poult life cycle.
Sure coyotes get some, be we don't have enough coyotes around here to do much damage. I would bet eagles get more poults in my county than coyotes.
In my part of VA, the huge mansions that are getting built in the middle of legacy farmland are of more consequence than climate change and predators
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Blame weather if they like but back in the 70's, 80's, and even the early 90's birds on my part of the Blue Ridge Mts. were plentiful. Coon hunting was an every night money maker for many guys who also killed opposums, skunks and the occasional fox. Today these critters are not hunted at all as those sports have died out thanks to many factors. It is not uncommon to find a nest or two destroyed each spring. Studies have shown that most hens will lay eggs a second time but scarcely none will a third time.
My feelings are that everyone's "kinda" right. It's weather, predators, habitat degradation, anddd hunting pressure
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Quote from: TauntoHawk on March 08, 2023, 07:39:26 PM
My feelings are that everyone's "kinda" right. It's weather, predators, habitat degradation, and hunting pressure
I think we all agree on this. In addition, those different factors can play an entirely different role in some parts of the country as compared to others.
Taking coyote predation as an example, I have no doubts that in some parts of the country they are more efficient predators on turkeys than others. In this part of the country, however, I have seen little evidence that coyotes are a significant limiting factor in turkey populations.
Regarding changing climatic conditions, an apparently drying global climate impacts not only the overall landscape, but seems to be changing regional weather patterns, some of which are having negative impacts on survivability of all sorts of living organisms, turkeys included. (*By the same token, there are very likely places where these same climate and weather-pattern changes are also favorable to certain species,...turkeys included)
Weather plays a role as does a lot of things. It's a death by a thousand cuts scenario.
I live in VA and hawks kill our chickens. Around here I think hawks are the real killers of poults. We had a couple bourbon red turkeys and coyotes ate them but my take was it was more of a hunting accident in that they just happened to be traveling through and took advantage of an easy meal.. but my wife saw the coyote get the turkey. Couple days later the other one was gone with similar looking crime scene left behind. I kill a lot of coyotes and if I play a fawn distress sound when the fawns drop its deadly. On the other hand, I've never called in a coyote when turkey hunting. Not saying they don't but the weather thing makes sense too. Wet, cold, and can't fly is a bad recipe.
Taking a deep deep breath and deciding if i want to commit internet suicide....
Oh h*ll why not. As some of you know I worked for Ohio's Dept. of Natural Resources for 31 years and 30 of those service years were with the Division of Wildlife. My experience with analyzing and determining wildlife and fisheries dynamics and populations is that causative effects are seldom sudden and usually deeply hidden. Answers seldom come quickly as most good research takes years of data collection. Most biologist have seen the problem coming and are working on it before sportsmen are even aware. Most are monitoring populations constantly. Many times steps are taken that most sportsmen never realized or just took in stride. In cases were problems became extreme and serious public reaction typically was very critical of the agencies. I am here to tell you, those in the agencies are hunters and anglers too and despite beliefs they care very deeply about the resource. You can't even begin to realize how many times in my career I was cussed out called derogative names and generally shamed. All from people who had no clue what I actually done to support their hobbies. Sportsmen and women are keenly aware of the state of our resources and I have to say if called on they will show up as an army and support wildlife agencies. But, in terms of solutions and scientific facts, they are most likely to be wrong. Poster's on old gobbler included. Let the scientist do the science and not speculate. I am not saying we are all wrong on every point, but to insist one particular thing is the great evil is not a solution. Again, let the biologist do their job. Opinions are great, but they need to be supported with facts. I will stop and admit, sometimes agencies drop the ball and I make no excuses for that. So I plead with everyone to be patient and let the agencies do their job. Talk to your agencies and be polite and open minded, you'll learn from them. Should we sound the alarm bells, yes.
Before you pound me with turkey questions I will confess I was in fisheries, but I do have a degree in wildlife management ( but I have not slept in a Holiday Inn ). I will give you a quick case study. We had a lake where we stocked fish for a trophy fishery and it started going down hill just like Turkeys are. We launched a population survey and started monitoring the parameters. We tried some solutions as well. About three years into this the local angler group came forward and wanted to know what the H*ll was we doing. we had been on it for three years at this point. They wanted more fish stocked and size limits and more. At one point we had a public forum and we almost needed a police escort to go home. we decided, no more of that crap. The solution was finally determined that poor water quality was the cause. Overloading of nutrients from household septic systems was souring the lake. Well, that's not and easy fix, but finally a central sewage system was put in (that pissed all the landowners off). Within three years the weed beds were back and fish populations were recovering and robust. Business picked up around the lake and property values increased and the lake became a destination lake for fishing. Some of the biggest bass tournaments for the area are there. This all took 10 years, and we were all called dirty stupid SOB government workers more times than I can remember. So, this is like an old hardheaded gobbler, be patient and let it work out. Throwing all kind of localized opinions at the wall will not fix it. I am sure that many of those opinions and factors are indeed on point, but let the biologist test the hypothesis before we bring judgement.
Well said eggshell. I have several friends that work for the DNR in different capacites across the state of WV and PA and they are all avid hunters and or fishers and care deeply about the wildlife.
Thanks for posting
Funny how many times I have said "Let the Biologist do their job".
I think there are numerous causes for declines and different area's don't all have the same problems. But I do know when the state game agency is not being totally honest to the public because they don't want to make some organizations mad is bs. I know some of the people doing the studies and they are being told by higher ups that they cannot disclose their findings to the public. Some of these state agencies need to let the biologists be able to tell the whole truth not half-truths.
I don't know how much fur is harvested in Virginia, but the collapse of the fur market has to be contributing to turkey decline in Nebraska some. But not from coyotes. Prices for raccoons dropped, then NAFA went bankrupt in 2019 and they really fell off. One of our state biologists commented on a forum that the last 2 years coon harvest has been around 50,000. When coons were worth $10 it was 150,00-200,000. Put a couple years in a row with 100,000 less coons getting killed by hunters and nest raiders are exceptionally higher in number. Those timelines, mixed with drought conditions the last 2 nesting seasons, seem to be pulling a 1-2 punch on nesting success and clutch survival for not only turkeys, but upland birds as well. But it's more than even those two factors.
Weather patterns, fur market, crp contract rates, irrigation restrictions, crop prices, feed prices...those are all factors that can negatively affect our turkey nest success and clutch survival. When multiple sources contribute negatively for a couple seasons in a row, it seems like we get conditions we are currently seeing here.
Where I hunt in eastern Virginia, over the last two years, I've seen a significant increase in coyote sign, such that I decided to try coyote hunting for the first time in my life last September. I've seen more tracks and fur-infused scat than I have ever seen in the past. I've also seen more turkeys than I've ever seen. Where I hunt, I feel like turkey numbers have increased rather dramatically in the last two years.
I have this weird habit of poking coyote poop with a stick to see that they've been eating. I've yet to see anything resembling a feather. It's always rodent hair and little bones.
Always heard the old timers say cold wet springs are bad for turkeys. Read a few old gobbler threads say the same. Hawks, predators then add weather and it adds up.
For turkey never thought hunting made much difference.
Game commissions are not the enemy. But people will believe what they want.
There's a lot of truth to that. A wet poult is a dead poult... i would think if you have tons of wet weather during the wrong time for back to back years... it would affect the population . But... we can't control weather , or do anything about it really. Life is a miracle on an all levels. Coyotes have never been the biggest threat to turkeys if ever a threat... that doesn't mean you won't see one killing/ eating a turkey . But Lovett Williams talked about alarm putting on one of his recordings he did .... And the fact that a turkey will putt at you to let you know you're busted . The closer you get the faster the putting until eventually the turkey will simply leave . Many predators will leave when the gig is up .... Because they know it's over.... Not saying that's always the case , but it's how turkeys operate in their environment with predators . Animals aren't in the business in wasting time and energy if it isn't necessary .
dzsmith, My very best turkey spot has a big coyote population too. I have sat and watched the coyote and turkey interations many days. The turkeys usually spot the coyote a long ways off and start putting and the coyote just moves on. When they do try to sneak in on them I have never seen them very close before the turkeys just fly up on a limb. I've watched this happen dozens of times
I've hunted Virginia extensively since '96. Over the years I've spent a lot of time in northern Virginia, the Northern Neck and I've hunted the central part of the state, as well.
I've also hunted turkeys in 43 states so I have first hand experience with states that take a liberal regulatory approach and those who are extremely conservative.
There are very few states demonstrating immunity to population decline but there are plenty of states who resisted preventative action when it first set in. Virginia is still operating within the same regulations it was 5-10 years ago and in fact they have liberalized hunting opportunities drastically within the last 5 years to include expanding afternoon hunting opportunities, opening Sunday hunting on public this year, etc. All of that is in conjunction with a 5 week long season.
Our springs are changing. We have received frequent and voluminous rain storms throughout May and June the last several years. The years where we were drier were years with exceptional poult production. Torrential rain washes out nests in low/floodplain areas. It soaks poults once they've made it out of the egg. It also soaks hens who are sitting on nests, which in my opinion makes it easier for predators to smell them sitting on the nest when passing back or track them to the nest based on the high concentration of scent (ever smelled a wet chicken or shot a wet turkey? they stink).
The idea that predator populations aren't expanding is moronic. As a kid, a lot of folks ran coon dogs. I knew folks who regularly trapped. No one runs coon dogs anymore. Very few people trap. If you're not actively managing predators, their populations are expanding and I'd be willing to wager fur harvest from Virginia is less than 80% of what it was 15 years ago.
Certain parts of our state currently have stable populations while others have exhibited rapid decline. There are only a handful of areas where populations have been increasing.
I personally believe we need to be more mindful of the fragility of this resource. I think our season is too long, our bag limit is too high and that the non-resident bag limit should be ONE turkey.
Very nice post eggshell and greatly appreciated. Thank you for your input and experience.
Quote from: Kyle_Ott on March 11, 2023, 07:36:24 AM
I've hunted Virginia extensively since '96. Over the years I've spent a lot of time in northern Virginia, the Northern Neck and I've hunted the central part of the state, as well.
I've also hunted turkeys in 43 states so I have first hand experience with states that take a liberal regulatory approach and those who are extremely conservative.
There are very few states demonstrating immunity to population decline but there are plenty of states who resisted preventative action when it first set in. Virginia is still operating within the same regulations it was 5-10 years ago and in fact they have liberalized hunting opportunities drastically within the last 5 years to include expanding afternoon hunting opportunities, opening Sunday hunting on public this year, etc. All of that is in conjunction with a 5 week long season.
Our springs are changing. We have received frequent and voluminous rain storms throughout May and June the last several years. The years where we were drier were years were poult production was exceptional. Torrential rain washes out nests in low/floodplain areas. It soaks poults once they've made it out of the egg. It also soaks hens who are sitting on nests, which in my opinion makes it easier for predators to smell them sitting on the nest when passing back or track them to the nest based on the high concentration of scent (ever smelled a wet chicken or shot a wet turkey? they stink).
The idea that predator populations aren't expanding is moronic. As a kid, a lot of folks ran coon dogs. I knew folks who regularly trapped. No one runs coon dogs anymore. Very few people trap. If you're not actively managing predators, their populations are expanding and I'd be willing to wager fur harvest from Virginia is less than 80% of what it was 15 years ago.
Certain parts of our state currently have stable populations while others have exhibited rapid decline. There are only a handful of areas where populations have been increasing.
I personally believe we need to be more mindful of the fragility of this resource. I think our season is too long, our bag limit is too high and that the non-resident bag limit should be ONE turkey.
Well said. I wish they would do away with the fall season completely. We don't need hens being harvested.
Quote from: Haymarket on March 11, 2023, 09:32:30 AM
Quote from: Kyle_Ott on March 11, 2023, 07:36:24 AM
I've hunted Virginia extensively since '96. Over the years I've spent a lot of time in northern Virginia, the Northern Neck and I've hunted the central part of the state, as well.
I've also hunted turkeys in 43 states so I have first hand experience with states that take a liberal regulatory approach and those who are extremely conservative.
There are very few states demonstrating immunity to population decline but there are plenty of states who resisted preventative action when it first set in. Virginia is still operating within the same regulations it was 5-10 years ago and in fact they have liberalized hunting opportunities drastically within the last 5 years to include expanding afternoon hunting opportunities, opening Sunday hunting on public this year, etc. All of that is in conjunction with a 5 week long season.
Our springs are changing. We have received frequent and voluminous rain storms throughout May and June the last several years. The years where we were drier were years were poult production was exceptional. Torrential rain washes out nests in low/floodplain areas. It soaks poults once they've made it out of the egg. It also soaks hens who are sitting on nests, which in my opinion makes it easier for predators to smell them sitting on the nest when passing back or track them to the nest based on the high concentration of scent (ever smelled a wet chicken or shot a wet turkey? they stink).
The idea that predator populations aren't expanding is moronic. As a kid, a lot of folks ran coon dogs. I knew folks who regularly trapped. No one runs coon dogs anymore. Very few people trap. If you're not actively managing predators, their populations are expanding and I'd be willing to wager fur harvest from Virginia is less than 80% of what it was 15 years ago.
Certain parts of our state currently have stable populations while others have exhibited rapid decline. There are only a handful of areas where populations have been increasing.
I personally believe we need to be more mindful of the fragility of this resource. I think our season is too long, our bag limit is too high and that the non-resident bag limit should be ONE turkey.
Well said. I wish they would do away with the fall season completely. We don't need hens being harvested.
I actually applaud the state for allowing hunting public on Sundays. I never understood why they didn't allow it when sunday hunting became legal (I know why because of conservative beliefs and the politicians went for it) but it made zero sense. If you can hunt on Sunday it should be open for everyone.
The afternoon hunting I didn't agree with. My argument has always been allow hunting until 2 pm the entire season and not all day at any point. But when do they listen to a commoner.
As for the fall...I truly wish they would do away with the season when there is a rifle season open. Since rifles are legal to kill a turkey here in VA theres too many open opportunities for deer hunters to pop one. I've also been vocal to the DWR about banning rifles for turkey here in VA. I love the 2 week winter season tho. however, they ruined that just this year by extending our anterless season for months. I've heard many gobblers in January and it's just as fun.
Like you said, there are portions of Virginia where the Turkey population is doing great and other parts of the state where it isn't. Luckily, I hunt the portion where the population seems to be stable if not increasing a tad. But I do think the DWR needs to be monitoring carefully and making changes if needed. I've already been on here talking about separate tags, etc. But making changes for the fall would help along with a few other tweaks.
This has been a good discussion on this thread. A lot of knowledgeable folks have dealt out some very valid points and great facts. I don't have data, just opinions. And I know all of us on here have a deep love for the turkey and we want the to thrive!!
Quote from: huntineveryday on March 09, 2023, 09:42:36 PM
I don't know how much fur is harvested in Virginia, but the collapse of the fur market has to be contributing to turkey decline in Nebraska some. But not from coyotes. Prices for raccoons dropped, then NAFA went bankrupt in 2019 and they really fell off. One of our state biologists commented on a forum that the last 2 years coon harvest has been around 50,000. When coons were worth $10 it was 150,00-200,000. Put a couple years in a row with 100,000 less coons getting killed by hunters and nest raiders are exceptionally higher in number. Those timelines, mixed with drought conditions the last 2 nesting seasons, seem to be pulling a 1-2 punch on nesting success and clutch survival for not only turkeys, but upland birds as well. But it's more than even those two factors.
Weather patterns, fur market, crp contract rates, irrigation restrictions, crop prices, feed prices...those are all factors that can negatively affect our turkey nest success and clutch survival. When multiple sources contribute negatively for a couple seasons in a row, it seems like we get conditions we are currently seeing here.
I'm a VA Hunter and came here to mention this! Our property once had guys running coon hounds after deer season. The property hasnt had coon hounds on it in 8+ years. Most outings you encounter coons on a morning/evening sit. Every trail camera has coons on it. Undoubtedly our coon population is continuously growing.
I don't think coons are the only factor to Turkey decline. On our property, I do think coon/predators are a measurable factor.
Quote from: eggshell on March 11, 2023, 07:02:44 AM
dzsmith, My very best turkey spot has a big coyote population too. I have sat and watched the coyote and turkey interations many days. The turkeys usually spot the coyote a long ways off and start putting and the coyote just moves on. When they do try to sneak in on them I have never seen them very close before the turkeys just fly up on a limb. I've watched this happen dozens of times
I agree 100%. The places I hunt with the higher predator populations coincidentally have the better turkey populations . With the exception of pigs . Personally the habitat isn't per se better but there's larger unbroken amounts of it. And I love trapping ... but I haven't personally seen a revival of turkeys anywhere on a property that was trapped hard for years and years vs ones that aren't.
Eggshell - Thank you for your post! Both for its focus on patience and data driven analysis, and for highlighting agency employees. I've worked for the BLM & Forest Service out west for 20+ years now and I've experienced similar to what you've described. It's funny how some view us as 'others' when really almost all of us are hunting and fishing enthusiasts. I mean, why else would we have spent all that money at college and chosen a career that there is zero possibility we're going to walk away from rich?
I started a thread in January asking folks who work for Fish and Game agencies to identify themselves. I was disappointed by the lack of response and I suspected there was some reluctance to speak up. You implied in your post that you were apprehensive to talk because of possible blowback. To me, that is such a bummer because you provided great insight to help us understand how difficult and dynamic professional wildlife management can be. I have to image there are others that can make similar contributions. Would love for those folks to speak up...
Post removed because I was getting off topic .... sorry
Eggshell, I have no problem with your input and would never choose teaching as a profession either. But my wife taught for 30 years and most of that was with a Masters plus 45 and top salary of $45k. Believe me that she spent more time than 9 months on school with homework, school meeting, parent and teacher deals, chaparone. Lot of our money went into supplies for the classroom. County school heirachy and fellow teachers brainwash them into believing they must do these things. Most teachers are under appreciated. State jobs do not pay well unless you are in a management position and some of those don't get paid much either.
Rifleman, I did not mean any disrespect. teachers have a very large role in our society and they have my respect. It was meant solely as a comparison. we are about to derail this thread so I am deleting my comments so it can stay on topic. I spoke too hastely, I appologize.
Eggshell, I have no problem with what you said. I just wanted to point out how little money they make for the hours they are working other than the classroom. Also, to show that they spend too much money to keep their classroom functional. I remember every year buying simple stuff like staples, construction paper, even chalk. My wife loved teaching but she could have made far more with other employees who could use her teaching skills. No harm.
There are many factors that have lead to the decline of turkey populations and it didn't happen overnight. It's easier now than ever to kill a turkey with the realistic decoys, blinds and dedicated turkey guns and ammo. Another factor that I feel contributes is the call-in check system or checking in on the app, which leads to inaccuracies in the total harvest from year to year...and some guys just don't know how to count ::). Had a fella tell me one time that he didn't feel like he had to stop at 3 birds.
Extreme heat can be as big if not more of a threat to polts than cold wet. They cannot regulate their body temps and during extreme heat they overheat and cook themselves.
Quote from: RaspyD on March 13, 2023, 08:51:02 AM
There are many factors that have lead to the decline of turkey populations and it didn't happen overnight. It's easier now than ever to kill a turkey with the realistic decoys, blinds and dedicated turkey guns and ammo. Another factor that I feel contributes is the call-in check system or checking in on the app, which leads to inaccuracies in the total harvest from year to year...and some guys just don't know how to count ::). Had a fella tell me one time that he didn't feel like he had to stop at 3 birds.
No doubt. However, back in the day of check stations..plenty of people just drove on home and never checked anything. There will always be those folks. But each state needs some system and internet is what it is now. The bigger issue is the "earn a buck" system. People kill their buck, then simply check in a doe online (without killing it) just to earn their next buck. Not sure the solution there because we are too far gone to going back to just check stations.
Unfortunately, there's a lot of ways around all of it. It requires honesty. But I still think some system is better than none. Surely the game department of each state is smart enough to figure in an X factor of birds that didn't get checked in and they can go from there. Again, I'm banking on people having common sense. So there's that. I just wish more people had ethics too.
All the comments seem to have some merit and as several have stated, it didn't happen overnight and not one single factor caused it. The cold hard truth is this will be an extremely hard fix if not impossible. Chances are very good that we will never see the big numbers again, no matter what attempts Wildlife agencies try. Look at what has happened with other species that fell into decline. Some disappeared and some remain but at much lower levels. Maybe all We can hope for is to save the Wild Turkey at current levels or slightly higher. If it's habitat, we can't make more without the private landowners drastically changing land use (a very hard sale), if it's disease the cat is out of the bag and we have no control, if it's over harvest from hunting and predation then we can fix it (the simplest of all causes) and if it's it weather we are again screwed. In all these scenarios only one gives the state agencies an absolute fix and it most likely is not the problem. So pull up your panties and pray for the best, because at this point I think praying is as good a strategy as anything. You have probably heard that willdlife species are biological and environmental alarms. we are certainly doing better, but so much harm has been done that it's impossible to undo a lot of it. I am not saying we don't try, just be aware this is about keeping the patient alive. Restoring him/her back to their ooriginal young vigor is not likely happening
Quote from: deathfoot on March 13, 2023, 11:00:15 PM
Quote from: RaspyD on March 13, 2023, 08:51:02 AM
There are many factors that have lead to the decline of turkey populations and it didn't happen overnight. It's easier now than ever to kill a turkey with the realistic decoys, blinds and dedicated turkey guns and ammo. Another factor that I feel contributes is the call-in check system or checking in on the app, which leads to inaccuracies in the total harvest from year to year...and some guys just don't know how to count ::). Had a fella tell me one time that he didn't feel like he had to stop at 3 birds.
No doubt. However, back in the day of check stations..plenty of people just drove on home and never checked anything. There will always be those folks. But each state needs some system and internet is what it is now. The bigger issue is the "earn a buck" system. People kill their buck, then simply check in a doe online (without killing it) just to earn their next buck. Not sure the solution there because we are too far gone to going back to just check stations.
Unfortunately, there's a lot of ways around all of it. It requires honesty. But I still think some system is better than none. Surely the game department of each state is smart enough to figure in an X factor of birds that didn't get checked in and they can go from there. Again, I'm banking on people having common sense. So there's that. I just wish more people had ethics too.
Kinda on and kinda off topic:
I'm from Arkansas and there is one glaring thing that I think has contributed heavily to the decline in the SE that is NOT discussed....probably because of the $$$ behind the problem.
Timber companies have become much more thorough than they once were thanks to tracked hot saws. Used to, they could not get skidders into the lowlands nearly as easy, drainage's were skipped and there was more time between harvests.
Now I'm not the biggest fan of continued over legislation on private companies on their own property, but I think a HUGE benefit to wildlife would be a mandatory Stream Management Zone for landowners who own large tracts of land. This would create edges that would benefit ALL WILDLIFE.
Problem is that timber companies pretty much run this state (and several states throughout the SE). To me, they are the elephant in the room when it comes to habitat. The Arkansas Game and Fish are quick to say "we only control 10% of huntable property in the state", but they avoid the tough conversation when it comes to corporate ownership.
Timber Harvest is and has been the biggest factor in decline.
With that being said , article is pretty much spot on . Not like you're going to slow down the timber harvest. Too much money.
Good analogy with the coyote, bout like dog chasing squirrel in backyard.
Coyotes pretty successful on killing nest raiders so I guess keep killing them and save those raccoons
, opossums.
I've spent years reading this forum, but never posting, but this topic I felt I had to chime in. I read the same article and some I agree with and some I don't. Someone mentioned about letting the biologists do their jobs. I agree, if they would do their jobs. And before those on the side of the biologists rise up to stone me to death, allow me to explain. When I first started hunting turkeys in the spring, we had a 4 week season, 2 bird limit, and we had to be out of the woods at 11am. Biologists told us, and I remember, because I was present at an event where he said it, that we had be out of the woods at 11 so hens can nest unimpeded. OK, fast forward about 7-8 years, the biologists told us that we could hunt until noon. then, they added a week to our season and added an additional bird to the bag limit. Then, low and behold, they decided that we can hunt all day the last 2 weeks of the season, and then this past year decided that we can hunt all day for the last 3 weeks of the season, nesting hens be damned. The same biologists that told us that we needed to be out of the woods before noon are now the same ones that say we can hunt all day for 60% of the season or are the same agency that the biologists work for at least. So, someone was either wrong then, or they're wrong now. I just don't have a lot of faith in the agency. Another phenomenon that I've noticed, is the same agency that said, 20 years prior, that we needed to be out of the woods by noon to allow hens to nest, exhibit a shocking willingness to set fire to the woods in April and May. I don't know why they don't do this in January or February, but I suspect it's because the agency might have to furnish coats to the people conducting this business. Since the "progression" or evolution of our seasons (spring and fall) have changed quite a bit in the last 30 years or so, and with all the advancements in study and research and data collection and access to information, to lay the decline in turkey populations at feet of mother nature, ie wet springs, to me is unpalatable. Dye could have saved himself some typing if he would have just said "if you want turkey populations to return, then buy an EV and turn in your gas stove ASAP".
The coyote analogy, I'd agree with. People that blame coyotes for turkey decline are probably the same people that blame muskies for eating all the bass out of the river, but disregard the fact that guides float up and down the river almost daily with paying clients in tow. I don't know anyone that hunts coons anymore, and I don't know, but it seems like I see a heck of lot more skunks these days than I used to, and there are a heck of a lot more bears than there used to be. I can't see a bear catching many turkeys, but I'd imagine that they could make quick work of a clutch of eggs.
I would, personally, like to see Va DWR take a more fluid approach to the seasons. If the trends start downward, back off a tag, back off a week, back off on all-day hunting. All-day hunting, I find is pretty close to cruel and unusual punishment anyway. The only benefit I see to it is that it gives the roost shooters twice the opportunity that they'd normally have.
The timber harvest business, I'm willing to admit, might hold some validity. A place that I hunt regularly, a tract of about 2000 acres, had a shade less than half of it timbered 3 years ago. I, naively, thought that cutting the timber would concentrate more turkeys on the area that was not cut. How wrong I was. Not only did the turkeys disappear from the area that was cut, they disappeared from the areas surrounding as well, not completely but pretty close. We (my friends, friends kids, my kid, myself) used to get about 8-12 gobblers a year off the place. Last year, there was not a single gobbler taken off the property by us. Matter of fact, I didn't even hear one last year, what time I spent there.
Quote from: Red_Nekkerson on March 16, 2023, 10:57:52 AM
I would, personally, like to see Va DWR take a more fluid approach to the seasons. If the trends start downward, back off a tag, back off a week, back off on all-day hunting. All-day hunting, I find is pretty close to cruel and unusual punishment anyway. The only benefit I see to it is that it gives the roost shooters twice the opportunity that they'd normally have.
Red, you brought up a lot of good points in your post and I agree 100% with your statement above. I do believe that the lengthening of the season and the addition of all day hunting was done to increase hunting opportunities for hunters, just as having deer season start on a Saturday and the extended seasons that have come along with that. Somehow we need to come up with a plan to not only sustain our turkey populations but sustain the tradition of hunting by providing opportunities for folks to hunt. Both are needed to keep the tradition of hunting going.
Quote from: Red_Nekkerson on March 16, 2023, 10:57:52 AM
I've spent years reading this forum, but never posting, but this topic I felt I had to chime in. I read the same article and some I agree with and some I don't. Someone mentioned about letting the biologists do their jobs. I agree, if they would do their jobs. And before those on the side of the biologists rise up to stone me to death, allow me to explain. When I first started hunting turkeys in the spring, we had a 4 week season, 2 bird limit, and we had to be out of the woods at 11am. Biologists told us, and I remember, because I was present at an event where he said it, that we had be out of the woods at 11 so hens can nest unimpeded. OK, fast forward about 7-8 years, the biologists told us that we could hunt until noon. then, they added a week to our season and added an additional bird to the bag limit. Then, low and behold, they decided that we can hunt all day the last 2 weeks of the season, and then this past year decided that we can hunt all day for the last 3 weeks of the season, nesting hens be damned. The same biologists that told us that we needed to be out of the woods before noon are now the same ones that say we can hunt all day for 60% of the season or are the same agency that the biologists work for at least. So, someone was either wrong then, or they're wrong now. I just don't have a lot of faith in the agency. Another phenomenon that I've noticed, is the same agency that said, 20 years prior, that we needed to be out of the woods by noon to allow hens to nest, exhibit a shocking willingness to set fire to the woods in April and May. I don't know why they don't do this in January or February, but I suspect it's because the agency might have to furnish coats to the people conducting this business. Since the "progression" or evolution of our seasons (spring and fall) have changed quite a bit in the last 30 years or so, and with all the advancements in study and research and data collection and access to information, to lay the decline in turkey populations at feet of mother nature, ie wet springs, to me is unpalatable. Dye could have saved himself some typing if he would have just said "if you want turkey populations to return, then buy an EV and turn in your gas stove ASAP".
The coyote analogy, I'd agree with. People that blame coyotes for turkey decline are probably the same people that blame muskies for eating all the bass out of the river, but disregard the fact that guides float up and down the river almost daily with paying clients in tow. I don't know anyone that hunts coons anymore, and I don't know, but it seems like I see a heck of lot more skunks these days than I used to, and there are a heck of a lot more bears than there used to be. I can't see a bear catching many turkeys, but I'd imagine that they could make quick work of a clutch of eggs.
I would, personally, like to see Va DWR take a more fluid approach to the seasons. If the trends start downward, back off a tag, back off a week, back off on all-day hunting. All-day hunting, I find is pretty close to cruel and unusual punishment anyway. The only benefit I see to it is that it gives the roost shooters twice the opportunity that they'd normally have.
The timber harvest business, I'm willing to admit, might hold some validity. A place that I hunt regularly, a tract of about 2000 acres, had a shade less than half of it timbered 3 years ago. I, naively, thought that cutting the timber would concentrate more turkeys on the area that was not cut. How wrong I was. Not only did the turkeys disappear from the area that was cut, they disappeared from the areas surrounding as well, not completely but pretty close. We (my friends, friends kids, my kid, myself) used to get about 8-12 gobblers a year off the place. Last year, there was not a single gobbler taken off the property by us. Matter of fact, I didn't even hear one last year, what time I spent there.
Got to put fire on the ground when you have resources to do it, and when you can do the most good. Fire timing effects how the plant community responds. An example:
The last 2 years I have done a growing season burn around Sept 1 on my property. Not only does it knock the sericea back, but it is great for killing brush.
My spring burned patch had chest high sericea in areas mid summer while it was hard to find it in the growing season burn area.
I will be putting fire into 10 acres of grass as soon as the weather allows. If I can get it in march it favors forbs. If I do it mid april to may it favors the warm season grasses.
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Red_nekkerson the only pushback to your statements i will say is that i think you are blaming the wrong portion of the agency. I would be willing to bet that the decisions you listed are pushed more by the people concerned with generating revenue than the bioligists on the ground.
Red_Nekkerson brought up a good thought - one that has puzzled me for a long time. Question is simply this: Why do so many states in the south do most of their burning in April and May while turkeys are sitting on the nest? I have wanted an answer to that for years.
Quote from: mountainhunter1 on March 17, 2023, 09:15:14 AM
Red_Nekkerson brought up a good thought - one that has puzzled me for a long time. Question is simply this: Why do so many states in the south do most of their burning in April and May while turkeys are sitting on the nest? I have wanted an answer to that for years.
I'm not sure why some states burn when they do, but I do know that the general idea is to burn when the moisture content of the fuel is such that the vegetation will burn without the risk of wildfire,...and apparently in some places that window of time when those conditions occur is pretty narrow. Unfortunately, based on what has happened recently with controlled burns getting out of hand (example: New Mexico in 2022), I suspect there will be much more scrutiny about controlled burning.
I didn't mean to come off as being against controlled burns or that I'm against timbering. I do believe that both can and are beneficial. I just question the timing the of the burns. Burning in April and May just seems a little off to me, when turkey numbers are in decline. Imagine them burning in November. The deer community would be outraged and would see that those responsible were rode out of the state on a rail.
HillClimberWV, I agree...I think these guys are going to do what they're told to do, and say what they're told say, and the bottom line is $$$. I've read somewhere or heard someone say that it's not worth it to go to a state as a non-resident to Spring Gobbler hunt if they didn't allow all day hunting. I don't agree with the statement, but I've heard or read some statement to that effect, and maybe some people feel that way. I'm not one of them.
Here again is an example of variable habitat management throughout different regions. That make it confusing when people from across the country all contribute to a specific discussion. Here in the upper midwest with our almost entirely hardwood forest, we do not burn our woods intentionally and fight fires at all cost. Our woods are high dollars veneers and saw lumber that fire greatly damages the value of. occasionally a controlled burn will be used in an old brush filled area (like an old clear cut), but it is not common. We do not see the rejuvenation from burning. Our forest build layers of leaf mulch and decomposing matter that we want to protect. Our turkeys do not benefit from burning like they do in the south
From my understanding is growing season burns are good for controlling woody plants species. It's also my understanding that in the south when the forest get choked with these species and is ready to burn the hens tend to not use the areas much. The 1st year after a burn is good for polt rearing. The 2nd not so much but they will use it for nesting. After the 3rd year they tend to stay clear for nesting and polt rearing as the cover is to thick and adds itself to nest predators like snakes the like. So over the long run the benefits outway the short term losses depending on what type of vegetation your trying to control.
In Virginia did the Biologist come up with the all day hunting? Or did the hunters keep pushing the issue until the commission caved in?
The Biologist can do their jobs, to their limits. When their bosses over rule them that's a different story. To much public "Money" input comes into play.
WV had a cave in a few years back with bringing their season in a week early. It was done just to appease the hunter. They shifted the season a week ahead. I, along with others complained that it took a week away from us in the mountain region. So, they gave us another week, now we have a 5 week season. Used to be four, now 5.
Problem is, to much public influence! The public should not be dictating season lengths, dates or times.
Let the Biologist do the job they are paid to do. The commissioners should take the Biologist referrals and make the seasons to the Biologists recommendations.
I am all about killing turkeys! My voice is biased and should not be used to determine seasons.
Every since I was a kid people have said the season came in a week late. "No, it didn't." We had a growing population then. Now we have a declining or stabile population, but not growing. 30 years ago agencies "Actually" listened to their biologist.....go figure
Quote from: GobbleNut on March 17, 2023, 09:42:41 AM
Quote from: mountainhunter1 on March 17, 2023, 09:15:14 AM
Red_Nekkerson brought up a good thought - one that has puzzled me for a long time. Question is simply this: Why do so many states in the south do most of their burning in April and May while turkeys are sitting on the nest? I have wanted an answer to that for years.
I'm not sure why some states burn when they do, but I do know that the general idea is to burn when the moisture content of the fuel is such that the vegetation will burn without the risk of wildfire,...and apparently in some places that window of time when those conditions occur is pretty narrow. Unfortunately, based on what has happened recently with controlled burns getting out of hand (example: New Mexico in 2022), I suspect there will be much more scrutiny about controlled burning.
Some of it is a matter of resources. Fire folks are not year round on most jurisdictions. They are generally 13/13 employees (only guaranteed 13 pay periods). The home unit may pick up more time from their regular budget. Some of this is changing to keep wildland folks from jumping ship. Then to pull off a burn you have to pull in folks from all over. After Cerro Grande we had to have an insane number of resources even though a farmer could burn the same unit with 2 people. That relaxed about 2010 but I bet it picks back up again.
Some of it is fire effects. A fire in november is far different than a fire in May. A growing season burn hurts alot of undesirable plant species while promoting greater biodiversity.
Here is an article from the SC DNR
April 9, 2015
Growing-season burns a natural ecological process in South Carolina
If you see or smell smoke near one of the S.C. Department of Natural Resources? heritage preserves this spring and summer, it may be coming from a prescribed fire.
Prescribed burns (also called controlled burns) are generally conducted in the dormant season, mostly in late winter and very early spring. But periodic burns in the growing season can improve habitat in ways dormant season burns cannot. Growing-season burns, which are conducted after the new leaves appear in the spring, are much more effective in controlling undesirable hardwoods, and are key in restoring and maintaining the herbaceous vegetation so crucial to brood-rearing for species like bobwhite quail and wild turkey..
The herbaceous native vegetation stimulated by growing-season prescribed burns, especially bunch-grasses and legumes, provides excellent cover and insect foraging areas for turkey poults and quail chicks, and for hens of both species. About 90 percent of the diet of both young turkeys and bobwhite quail during the first few weeks after they hatch consists of insects, which provide vital protein for early development of feathers and muscle.
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Quote from: HillclimberWV on March 17, 2023, 08:50:28 AM
Red_nekkerson the only pushback to your statements i will say is that i think you are blaming the wrong portion of the agency. I would be willing to bet that the decisions you listed are pushed more by the people concerned with generating revenue than the bioligists on the ground.
Exactly. Gary Norman was against the all day hunting, and the year he retired, the commission started pushing for it. More $$. They wanted the whole season but settled for the last three weeks after the public comment session. I was against it and made sure to submit my comments.
A lot of good discussion going on in this thread.
Some things I would like to see happen in Va: separate the Turkey tag from the deer tags, manage Turkeys by region, do away with killing hens in the fall and stop letting people shoot bearded hens in the spring.
I encourage everyone in Va to sign up for notifications of future public comment opportunities.
https://dwr.virginia.gov/about/public-comment-opportunities/
WV Flopper is correct. His scenario happens way too much. The public often lobbies for changes that are not good biology and when the roar get's loud enough agencies give in. A prime example just happened to us here in Ohio. Our bag limit was reduced to one and restrictions put on public land. I watched the numbers and it reduced the kill around 4,000 birds state wide. That seems like a lot but it is only one gobbler for every 4,000 -5,000 acres. That's not going to change much. It will make very little difference to the flock and be numericaly insignificant, but poeple were crying, "do something" and they did. That is what makes public discussions on regulations and biological strategies a slippery slope. Be as informed as possible before lobbying for change, make sure it is a good thing scientifically. I have watched it happen too many times. Especially when we were stocking fish. I can't tell you how many times I dumped fish in a lake or stream I knew I was wasting the fish, just because some big shot or sportsman's club wanted it. Don't get too mad at wildlife administrators. When the man whose name is on your check calls and says do it or I will find someone who will, you do it. That is why we should not involve politicians in matters of science.
well said eggshell
Quote from: Chordeiles on March 19, 2023, 04:36:09 AM
Quote from: HillclimberWV on March 17, 2023, 08:50:28 AM
Red_nekkerson the only pushback to your statements i will say is that i think you are blaming the wrong portion of the agency. I would be willing to bet that the decisions you listed are pushed more by the people concerned with generating revenue than the bioligists on the ground.
Exactly. Gary Norman was against the all day hunting, and the year he retired, the commission started pushing for it. More $$. They wanted the whole season but settled for the last three weeks after the public comment session. I was against it and made sure to submit my comments.
A lot of good discussion going on in this thread.
Some things I would like to see happen in Va: separate the Turkey tag from the deer tags, manage Turkeys by region, do away with killing hens in the fall and stop letting people shoot bearded hens in the spring.
I encourage everyone in Va to sign up for notifications of future public comment opportunities.
https://dwr.virginia.gov/about/public-comment-opportunities/
I really liked Gary Norman. He was a top notch person. I would also like to encourage VA hunters to do the yearly turkey hunter survey. I've been doing it since like 1995, missed a few years tho living in other states.
https://dwr.virginia.gov/wildlife/turkey/turkey-survey/
In Virginia fall turkey kills are mostly incidental to hunting other game. I've shot more turkeys in the fall hunting deer and small game than I have hunting specifically for turkeys. In some counties, Virginia implemented a 2 week winter season that, in most of those counties, falls after the close of deer season. It's a chance to get out and hunt fall/winter birds without having to be clad in orange. I welcome that season and availed myself of it this winter. Virginia's justification was that there is a decrease in interest in fall turkey hunting. I believe that. I haven't seen anyone out hunting specifically for turkeys in the fall in many years, and I hunt principally public land with decent numbers of turkeys. I haven't seen anyone with a turkey dog in the woods in decades. YMMV. Fall harvests are minuscule compared to spring harvests. Something like 10% of the spring harvest. Hen kills are less than half of the total fall harvest. In 2022-2023, under 800 statewide.
The fall season is broken up into segments, with some days falling during early muzzle loader deer season, then two days in November, and the some days near the end of the deer season, when many deer hunters have limited or given up. Hunting for anything has fallen way off by the time this third segment arrives. Then, in some counties, a 4th segment, 2 weeks in January. Given the low numbers harvested, I don't see legal hen harvest in the fall as threatening. I hope the fall season with its segments continues. Doing it this way seems well thought out. The numbers harvested simply don't support limiting it further.
As far as the spring season goes, the spring season did go to all day hunting, but only for the second half of the spring season. The first half still has a 12 noon stop time. Virginia's spring season already starts well after the majority of mating is over. Anyone that spends a lot of time in the woods here in Va knows that. Gobbling starts in February and peaks in March. It's at its peak now. And there is 3 weeks to go before the spring season starts. By the time it starts, most of the hens have been mated and gobbling is far more sporadic.
Virginia has managed its population well, and in IMO, better than many states. Once you limit, there is no possibility to buy more tags and continue the kills. I know in states like Tennessee, you could at one time buy tags, then buy left over tags after the first tags were filled. Virginia never subscribed to that. Once your tags are filled in Va, you're done. There are no second chances.
I'm not sure what the yearly turkey mortality in Virginia is. I know in some states, it's 50% or more per year, from all sources of mortality. IF the yearly turkey mortality in Virginia is anything close to that, then legal hunting is not the principal cause. In some states, like West Virginia, studies have shown that illegal mortality accounts for significantly more mortality than legal hunting. I suspect that's the case in Virginia, too. Some of the turkey poaching busts that have made the news are mind boggling. How much goes undetected?
Natural mortality probably accounts for most of the losses. When people talk about predators, people think coyotes, bobcats, raccoons, and no doubt they kill some turkeys and destroy eggs. But I think eagles and geese. Nothing we can do about those. But the Bald Eagle population in eastern Virginia has exploded. I saw five in circling over a small tract of public land I hunt last Thursday, and there is limited water there, so they weren't looking for fish. As far as coyotes, I've seen a fairly dramatic increase in the coyotes signs on the land I hunt, but no evidence in their crap that they are eating turkeys, though its possible.
And there has been a huge increase in the population of resident Canada Geese. Geese are known carriers of avian flu and it's spread through their droppings. Virginia biologists have long said that Virginia Turkeys weren't susceptible to avian flu because Canada Geese and turkeys inhabit different niches. Maybe at night. But I pass by fields that 10 years ago had turkeys in them, and are now covered in geese. Nary a turkey to be seen anymore. The damned geese are everywhere. They are, by and large, no longer a migratory species and there needs to be an open season on them.
Turkey harvests in Virginia is just a small component of the overall causes of turkey mortality in Virginia. I think the seasons are fine. I do wish there were more DWR law enforcement officers. On any given day, there are only two on duty in the area I hunt, part of hundreds square miles they have to cover. If there were more there could be a crackdown on illegal hunting which, it appears, is as significantly, or maybe more so, than legal hunting. There needs to be a open season with liberal limits on resident geese (which I suppose is a federal issue).
And there isn't much we can do about the weather. We're a hurricane and nor'easter prone state.
I live in Virginia and coyotes do have a small impact on poults and weather conditions do effect hatches but the state does nothing for wildlife no food planting or anything unless it is for their own gain and the nwtf is a joke they don't try at all unless it's big plots of private land and can get their reps rights to hunt here all they do is cut all the timber and support paper mills or burn everything in the spring which kills who knows how many baby turkeys and deer
That is one well thought out and soundly stated post RMP. Be careful in this world today, you may get canceled talking common sense facts (I don't mean that for Old Gobbler posters just this society as a whole in the US). I agree wholeheartedly
:z-winnersmiley:
779 Turkeys without a beard harvested in 2022 fall season.
48.1% of total harvest
Makes no difference? Lol.
There were 19,711 bearded turkeys taken in the 2022 spring season, and 842 bearded birds taken during the 2022-2023 fall season. 770 hens (or unbearded birds) taken during the 2022-2023 fall season. Between the two seasons, hens accounted for 3% of the total harvest.
2022-2023 had the lowest fall harvest since 1962, despite having a exponentially higher population. The highest harvest during the fall occurred in the 1990s and early 2000s, when turkey numbers werer known to have been increasing. In 1990, there were something like 16,000 fall birds harvested, and the population was lower then than it is now. And unbearded birds were legal then, too. If the ratio of hens to bearded birds was the same back then as it is now, something like 7,600 hens would have been taken in the fall of 1990. Yet the population has gone up since then.
If there is something to worry about - it's not the current fall season and the harvest of a few hens.
I agree. There's more to be worried about but it absolutely does not help and it's definitely something that can be controlled, to an extent.(unlike the weather)
And I guess we'll just disagree because I don't consider over 700 hens to be "just a few".
Quote from: Chordeiles on March 19, 2023, 05:07:08 PM
And I guess we'll just disagree because I don't consider over 700 hens to be "just a few".
Don't allow rifles for turkey hunting in Virginia and I think that will help. Too many deer hunters killing them.
I love the 2 week winter season here except for this year when the extended anterless season was in during that time in the county I hunt. It was just more opportunity for deer hunters to kill more turkeys.
We can agree or not, it doesn't much matter. But the numbers speak for themselves.
779 hens not shot during the fall does does not necessarily correlate to 779 extra hens breeding come spring. Illegal and natural mortality will still take a toll on them.
Whatever one wants to believe, the numbers show that the population grew substantially through the years when there was greater fall pressure than there is today. There are more birds in Virginia today than there were in the 1990s and 2000s. Yet fall harvests were far higher then.
(https://i.imgur.com/efSfL5G.png)
BTW, the decrease in harvest from 1990 in no way reflects fewer birds. It reflects less hunter participation.
The simple fact is, populations fluctuate each year. But the trend is up and there is no reason at this time to believe that won't continue, and no reason to believe that restricting fall hunting further will have some substantial positive increase in the number of birds.
If you spend lots of time outdoors in Virginia, it's not hard to see where the real problems lie:
Fields and woods that used to have lots of birds are now covered with housing developments and condos.
Fields that are still there are covered in geese increasing the chances of disease transmission.
There has been huge increase in the numbers of raptors that take poults and adult birds.
Few people in Virginia hunt raccoons, skunks, coyotoes or crows anymore - all will either kill adult birds, poults, or destroy nests.
Poaching is a huge problem and the Va DWR is underfunded and understaffed to deal with it.
I'm not particularly ready to simply give up hunting, in the spring or fall, when despite all this, the population trend is going up. I will not support further restriuctions to the fall season when the objective evidence doesn't support that it will have any substatial positive impact.
More than one ongoing research study is finding out just how important hen survival is to maintain growing or even stable turkey populations. I suspect we will see more states start nixing the harvest of hens, even in the fall, once the research is published and results are spread.
As an avid fall hunter I would accept the closure if the science proved it was necessary. I'd miss it but I am for good management. In our area the fall kill is so small it's insignificant. Most years it is less than 50 birds for the whole county. I know one year it was around 15 birds. No one fall hunts here, most are killed by archery deer hunters. I know of 6 fall birds killed in my area by gun hunters last fall. 4 of those six were gobblers. That's a 3 township area (over 70,000 acres).
In the early 90s there was still a "fall only" tag for turkeys which would account for the higher fall harvest numbers then. Sometime after that Virginia went to having the 3rd tag to allow for a fall or spring bird and many hunters opted to save that tag to be able to take 3 birds in the spring.
Some states rely on the 10% rule of thumb for hen mortality to maintain a steady or slightly growing population. Assuming half the estimated birds in Virginia are female (and I don't know that to be a fact), that would be roughly 90,000. 779 in a year accounts for .8% of the female population.
Since the DWR is trying to increase fall turkey hunting participation, there must be some belief that an increased hen harvest can be tolerated. I supect the people that would be interested in fall turkey hunting already have a big game license, so any argument that the DWR is just trying to make more money doesn't make a lot of sense. The big game license includes turkey tags whether they are used or not.
There just aren't a lot of hens being killed in the fall season by hunters. I do think turkey kills, and all big game kills, are underreported. The honor system leaves a lot to be desired. If you've hunted in a part of Virginia for any length of time where deer hunting with hounds is allowed, you will eventually see every manner of deer in the back of someone's truck, whether its a legal deer or not. There is no question that some big game harvests are not being reported.