Old guns and old ammo

[novashooter]

Hi everyone, I am excited for this Saturdays turkey opener here and while watching videos and reading forums I noticed this one now has a section for vintage turkey guns. That is something I am quite interested in, as I have been hunting with vintage shotguns for turkeys exclusively for close to 10 years now. One of them probably wasn't quite 50 years old, more like 30-40, but it was a sxs muzzleloader from Pedersoli. For the past 3 years all of my turkey hunting has been done with my original SXS 10 gauge percussion, likely built in the 1850's in Bermingham. I don't know how many care about muzzleloaders here, but I figured I could share some wisdom I have learned over the years. My very first turkey was shot with a Knight TK2000, so I have been using muzzle loaders for some time.

If anyone s a true purist, shotgun chokes did not exist pre civil war. That said, while muzzleloaders tend to pattern tigher than cartridge shotguns, a cylinder bore is still a handicap. I had a Pedersoli 10 gauge SXS cylinder bore, and I spent a crazy amount of time trying to get it to make it a turkey gun. In the end, I never really got there. If you have a cylinder bore muzzleoader, my advice is just to accept the limitation, it's never going to be a 35+ yard shooter, it's probably never going to put 100 pellets in a 10" circle at 30 yards either. If I were to do it again, I would give a strong consideration to #7.5 shot, and just shooting inside 25 yards. I ended up shooting 2 ounces of #6 and it still wasn't that impressive at 25 yards. It worked out ok though, as I shot my tom that year under 10 yards. Chokes are just the best, I don't think I would ever consider one without again. An exception might be a SXS with only one barrel being cylinder bore. Even a .010" constriction improved cylinder makes a monumental difference. If someone out there has a cylinder bore muzzleloader they want to use for turkeys, give a strong consideration to a jug choke. You can look up how to do it, it isn't hard.

This is very general advice for what I've found, but I use 1Fg powder. Some claim good results with 2Fg or even 3Fg, but in every instance I have seen tighter patterns with 1Fg. You do loose some velocity at the same charge, which you can use more powder to compensate. 90gr of 1Fg is going to be close in speed to 70gr 3Fg, yet the 1Fg will usually pattern tighter in my testing. For wads, I've seen a lot of garbage recommendations out there likely from those who have never patterned their shotgun, or at least never tried to make it good. There is a really odd method of wadding called the "skycheif method" which does work. The order you use is hard card over the powder, shot, overshot card, 1/2" fiber wad soaking wet with olive oil on top. Supposedly this works really good for some in cylinder bore guns, in my case it did great, but not any better than my preffered method. The way that I load is using hard card type material. Not corrugated cardboard, not overshot cards, but hard paper card usually used as pallet slip sheets. I've found it anywhere from .050" thick to .100" thick, it's all the same stuff. Technically you could use .030" overshot cards, but you would need a bunch of them. The key I found from velocity testing is you need a minimum of 1/8" of card type material to make a good seal. Currently the stuff I use is .080" thick, and I use two of them over the powder for a total about .160" thick. If you used overshot cards you would want to use at least 5 over the powder. I punch these out with arch punches, 5/8" for 20 gauge, 11/16" for 16 gauge, 3/4" for 12 gauge, 20mm for 10 gauge, and my original "10 gauge" actually has a 9 gauge bore diameter, which I use a 21mm punch. The problem with store bought 1/8" nitro cards is they are so thick and stiff they can be hard to ram down. They do work, but even better is to use a knife and split them in half, then use them like that. I've patterned for turkeys with lead shot, and ducks with bismuth shot, and in both cases with muliple guns the winning combo has been powder, 2 hard cards (between .050" and .100" thick), shot, and 1 hard card over the shot. I've tried the thin overshot cards as overshot cards, it makes no difference. Even the Skycheif 1/2" fiber wad doesn't hurt patterns, and might help. Your overshot card doesn't seem to matter, it's the over powder wads that matter. For that reason, I see no reason to use a different wad. I only keep one wad type in my bag. I've tried fiber, felt, and cork wads under the shot/over the powder, and in most cases patterns are either unaffected or get worse. I also see no reason to use lube. The Skycheif method needs lube, there is a theory on why which you can read online, but it's nothing to do with powder fouling. In general powder fouling is not a concern I've found in shotguns. Even duck hunting, 10-20 shots per barrel is no problem with no lube, and if it is, a simple method of spitting down the barrel on top of the shot works without having to carry lubed wads. Long story short, either try the 2 over powder, 1 over shot hard card method, or try the Skycheif method, one of those will give you good results.

The powder and shot loads I use are not that wild. The old adage of less powder, more lead, shoots farther, kills dead is quite true. Black powder is a lot simple in that regard. There is some balance there to have reasonable velocity, but velocity is usually overrated. Most good muzzleloaders loads are going to fall into that 950 to 1150 fps range which is just fine. For a 12 gauge I find 80-100 gr of powder and 1 1/2 to 1 3/4 ounces shot to be a good range for turkeys. I do very similar in the 10 gauges, although I bump it up slightly 90-110gr powder and 1 1/2 to 2 ounces of shot. The load I've been using the last 3 years is my powder measure 100 gr powder, and 120 gr of #6 shot, which is close to 1 5/8 oz shot. The old "square load" meaning you use the same measure for shot and powder is good for general purpose stuff, but for turkeys, I would not bother. Use more shot than powder by volume. One other thing I've found, there's really no such thing as efficiency, or finding so called better patterns with lighter shot loads. Pretty much the more shot you use, the more potential shot you put on target. If you are shooting a 12 or 10 gauge, I wouldn't bother with less than 1 1/2 oz of shot for turkey unless you are recoil shy. The recoil is my upper limit, for turkeys I use the heaviest load I can without it hurting. The one exception would be as stated earlier, a cylinder bore, I might consider a lighter load of #7.5 shot if it can pattern at 25 yards. With a choke I see no reason to limit your range. A choked muzzleloader can at least match a cartridge shotgun, and they do that without buffers. I have tried to buffer my shot loads in muzzleoaders, but it's really a PITA. The best method I found is to pour powder, run one card wad down on powder, start a second card wad and only put it maybe 3" down the muzzle. Pour in your shot, then pour in your buffer, tap the barrel until the buffer is settled in the shot, add overshot card and run that down. The problem is both the tapping to settle the buffer is a PITA, and the ramming your cards and shot at the same time can be very tough. If I were to try this again, I would make paper cartridges with buffered shot inside them. That said, my Knight TK2000 with extra full turkey choke, no buffer or anything, just straight #6 magnum lead shot will put over 100 pellets in a 10" circle at 40 yards. Last I recall it will do it with #5 shot too, but it's been close to a decade since I've shot it.

To be continued...

[novashooter]

To clarify, when I pattern for turkeys, I only pattern for the 10" circle. If my shotgun pattern isn't centered I correct that, then I shoot and the center 10" is the only thing I count. My standard is the old 100 pellets  in a 10" circle. Over the years I have not seen too much reason to stray from this. Based on shooting some of those turkey head targets, 80 in a 10" target still usually puts 4-5 in the neck or brain, but 100 gives you that certainty. In the future I might actually have to test this theory. I always shoot a minimum of 3 patterns, and usually 5 patterns per load. I always average them. Usually it's not a problem, but if you have a load that varies widely from shot to shot, that could be an issue. Mostly I find plus or minus maybe 15 pellets in a 10" circle shot to shot in patterns is typical. Often it's less than that. More than 20 I would be concerned. For example if I shot and got 103, 110,76, 96, 105. I would expect some kind of problem. The most common failure I see in muzzleloaders are wad failures. One common one is getting a wad in there crooked, which isn't an issue if you pay attention, but it can happen. Another easier to miss falure is not fully seating the over powder wad. This is mostly an issue after a few shots, you get powder fouling near the breech end more than the muzzle. You can ram a wad down hard and think you have it bottomed, where in reality you might be 1/2" or more from even touching the powder. It's a good idea to mark your ramrod. When patterning I also like to swab the barrel every shot. I use spit, one wet patch, then one dry. An even faster way is to use alcohol wet patches, run down a wet patch, and it dries very quickly. The other thing I do with shotguns is I bounce my ramrod. You have to be aware of what rod you are using, don't go crazy with a big steel rod, but my ramrods are hickory. I do not do this in a rifle, and I do not bounce the rod over the shot either. Ram the powder, not the lead. I will ram my wads down, and give that last little oomf. I then raise the ramrod maybe 4" or 6" and drop/lightly throw it down with gravity 2-3 times. Even with a fouled barrel I have found this will fully ram the wads down. This is the most consistent method I have found.

That's most of what I can share about turkey hunting with muzzleloaders. The ignition you use is up to you. I've used flintlock, percussion cap, and 209 primers, and it doesn't seem to matter to shotgun patterns. I've even used magspark adapters to use 209's in side locks. Flintlocks are flintlocks, but if you are using a percussion gun, I would suggest you try a CCI #11 MAGNUM cap if you can get them. Shotguns are usually really reliable compared to a long channel rifle like a TC, but that magnum cap can still help, and it never seems to hurt. I see no reason to ever use a 209 with blackpowder. I guess the only real trick I can share is make sure your cap fits your nipple. You shouldn't have to push them on hard, and you shouldn't have to pinch them to make them stay on. I buy nipples from Track of the Wolf, put them in a hex nut that fits the thread (most if not all of mine are 1/4"-28 thread), then chuck that into a cordless drill. I then use an Arkansas stone or fine sandpaper using the drill like a lathe. I do this until a cap just slips on with the slightest resistance. Doing this they should be basically waterproof, and I've never had one fall off by accident. Usually I need the back of my knife to get the cap off if I don't shoot.






Now that I said all that stuff probably nobody cares about, maybe some info that some can use. I shoot a number of 50+ year old cartridge shotguns although that's not that crazy. 50 years ago is only 1974. Thodays internally threaded choke tubes weren't really a thing then, but there was Polychoke, and Cutts, and other proprietary adjustable or removable chokes out there. I would not shoot steel shot in guns pre 1991, and probably not hevishot either, but I think TSS would be ok since the shot is so small for turkeys. I'm sure people shoot hevishot and similar shots in these old guns, that's just me. I don't see a valid reason to do it. If you happen to live somewhere you have to use non-lead ammo, unfortunately is seems Nice Shot is out of buisness. I shoot mostly bismuth for waterfowl, but I would rather not use it for turkeys. ITX 10 I would feel the same. At this point I feel lead or TSS are the only logical choices for vintage shotguns.

Despite the lack of super tight turkey chokes usually (I think poly chokes can get pretty tight), a fixed full choke does a pretty good job. That's really how the modern style of spring turkey hunting with decoys and all that came about was guys with fixed full chokes, shooting 1 1/2 oz baby magnum waterfowl loads, most of which weren't even buffered loads. They will work just as well today as they did then. I do think, especially for kids a strong case could be made for limiting to 30 yards, and using #7.5 trap loads. They would do a much better job than most people realize. Many today are shooting TSS with the same idea, but trap loads are way cheaper, and inside 30 yards, which kids should be shooting, they work just as well, if not better since they have a larger effective pattern. I have made plenty of good buffered turkey loads over the years, there's not much I can tell. For the most part factory loads are as good as it gets. I've made handloads that are just as good and somewhat better, but if you don't handload, don't worry about it. I will say I have a strong preference for #6 shot, unless I was really trying to shoot past 40 yards. There's no reason I can find to shoot #5 for turkeys inside 40 unless your gun happens to pattern them tighter. None of mine will, and #6 has way more pellets. This is just my opinion, but I can't see any good reason to shoot #4 ever. The only advantage I can think of is stray pellets might go through the breast, where #5 and #6 often wont. If that's the reasoning, why not just shoot #2 or even BB and body shoot them? I've never tried the 2 3/4" Winchester Longbeard, it looks spicy, but it should work good. I've never tried the Federal grand slam, but the older 2 3/4" Federal that just said "lead" on it and had a picture of a turkey worked really good. Unfortunately it appears they are discontinued. I've had really bad results from Remington Nitro Turkey. I don't know anything about the TSS offerings, I can't help with that. I would think either the Longbeard or GrandSlam loads would work really good.

If any of you are interested in really old guns, especially ones where you might not want to use full pressure loads, I've done some playing with blackpowder shotshells. There are low pressure smokeless loads out there, but they are kind of pathetic a lot of the time. While safe, even the lowest pressure smokeless loads are still at or above the highest pressure you can get from blackpowder in a shotshell. A lot of blackpowder shotshell loads are only going to be 3000-5000 psi. Most "low pressure" smokeless loads are 6000-7000 psi. I'm not discouraging you from using smokeless in an old gun, but if you actually want to get some serious loads from them, I encourage you to try blackpowder.

This year I'm taking a break from the muzzleloaders for turkeys. I'm actually hoping to get a turkey with a handgun this year, which I have never done, but I have two tags. The shotgun I am bringing out is my Winchester 1897 pump with 30" fixed full barrel. It was built in 1929, and it's solid as can be. There's no need to run low pressure loads in a model 97 or model 12, they are as tough, if not tougher than many shotguns today. I'd actually lay money my 97 would handle stronger loads than a lot of the cheap imported garbage today. I have, and will again use full power smokeless loads in this shotgun. That said, I'm using blackpowder loads for fun, and maybe it will help someone who is using a shotgun that isn't as strong, maybe an older sxs or something.

Despite what I said earlier about wads in a muzzleloader, I have found advantages to using so called cushion wads in a shotshell. I have had less than stellar results using only hard cards in shotshells. My theory, and I can't prove it, is that the free bore from the end of the shell, through the forcing cone, and into the barrel allows blow by with minimal wads. I do not have a set standard, but a single 1/8" nitro card has not worked great for me. An 1/8" nitro card plus 1/8" felt worked better, not great. An 1/8" card and 1/4" felt has worked quite well. I've tried oversized felt wads like 20mm in a 12 gauge, and it didn't hurt, but didn't seem to help either. Wads is something you will have to experiment with, but I wouldn't bother with only hard cards like what works really good in a muzzleloader. For most loads it's not a big problem. The load I am using this year is a 12 gauge 2 3/4" Federal paper hull, Federal 209a primer, 80gr 1Fg Goex (about 1/8" compression of powder), 1/8" nitro card plus two 1/8" thick felt wads, 1 1/2 oz #6 lead, fold crimp.

First let me say the hulls you use are not super important. Blackpowder is hard on plastic, but plastic hulls last a couple shots usually, often more. They fail by burning a pin hole near the bottom on the outside. It's not a big deal. I would probably not use Winchester AA or Remington Gunclubs. They would work, but they have less volume inside, you want all the volume you can get. I'm using paper hulls because I have them, they still sell them, but I wouldn't go out of my way to get them. Federal still makes ammo with paper hulls, which is where mine came from. They are once fired trap load hulls. Cheddite also makes brand new paper hulls. Paper hulls last about the same with blackpowder or smokeless. They go 4-5 shots mostly, and usually start to separate where the brass meets paper. The primer you use really doesn't matter. There's no pressure issues with blackpowder, so don't worry about that. Blackpowder is super easy to ignite, so it works with any primer. When it comes to wads, I don't want to say it's a myth, but its way overblown that you can't use plastic wads with blackpowder. You absolutely can, and it's not a big deal. You might get a little more plastic fouling than you normally do, but it cleans out super easy so who cares? The loads themselves work fine. The reason you will probably want to avoid plastic in a shotshell is because they are wasted space. Blackpowder takes up a lot of room, and most plastic wads are dead space. Even steel shot wads take up more space than needed, and do not do anything positive for patterns. Give them a try if you want though, it will not hurt. Mostly I suggest you use natural wads. Either the same card wads I use in muzzleloaders, or I often use store bought 1/8" nitro cards. Filler wads are often called cushion wads, but they don't actually cushion shot. There's too much acceleration going on, and they don't need to cushion blackpowder like they do smokeless for pressure curves. My theory is they expand and seal better in the forcing cone. At best this is a freebore jump of 5/8" or 3/4", sometimes longer. That's a ton of area to get blowby. Fiber wads are cheap and effective cushion wads. Cork is kind of expensive, and I don't see any advantage to them, but they work. I like felt because its really easy to punch out wads, I buy it in sheets 1/8" or 1/4" thick. You will notice I do compress my blackpowder quite a bit. There's no standards I would say you have to follow, but you probably want at least some compression. Mostly I just make it fit. It's too much compression if the shell bulges or the primer pops out. There's no danger in compression blackpowder. The only problem you would find in not compression the powder is lack of performance, but it will still fire. My hulls are once fired fold crimped, so I'm fold crimping them again. If  you are using new hulls, roll crimping is a great option because you can get more volume from the hull. If you could get new Federal low basewad hulls (usually sold with buckshot, slugs, waterfowl loads, etc.) they have a ton of volume. I bet you could get 90gr of powder and 1 5/8oz of shot in them with a roll crimp and still enough wads to seal.

So all that said, how do they perform? Pretty good as it turns out. I fired 3 patterns at 35 yards in my model 97 and got 104, 115, and 108. I then moved to 40 and it went down quite a bit to 73,81,73. I stopped there since they obviously were not good enough for 40 yards. This is not uncommon for non-buffered loads, but they still will do the job. Velocity is very close to 950fps at the muzzle, which sounds slow, but when I input that into KYP ballistics, A #6 lead with a MV of 950, at 40 yards is comparable to a #7.5 with a MV of 1350 fps as far as gel penetration and energy. Nearly all the shot blew through the 1/4" plywood subfloor I was patterning on. It's not as good as a modern buffered load, but it beats the heck out of those wimpy low pressure smokeless loads which might not pattern good past 25 yards.

[novashooter]

One last thing I should have said, you do not need any fancy equipment to load blackpowder shotshells, it is as idiot proof as you can get. There is no way to make an unsafe load in a shotshell with blackpowder. You don't even need a scale. All you need is some kind of powder measure such as used for muzzleloaders. You can use that same measure for shot, or you can buy measures made just for shot. A lot of the time, if not most of the time, those shot measures are wrong though. I think they are made for really shot soft, which you should never use. Always use the hardest shot you can such as Lawrence magnum shot. You can use a shot measure and get close enough. Paper hulls crimp really easily, you could use a Lee loader kit, the Lee Load All II works really good with papers. There are other kits like the Lee loaders that work too. If you roll crimp, all you need is a roll crimper and a drill or drill press. The 1 pin crimpers from BPI are not that great, but do work. The 2 pin crimpers from Precision reloader are much better. The quad pin crimpers from Reloaders Network are the best, but are expensive. You can deprime with a nail or pin, and reprime on a block of wood.

Here is my findings for shot weight in grains with my powder measure. My powder measure is very close to actual weight with blackpowder. This was with Lawrence #5 magnum lead shot. Column A is my powder measure setting (what it should throw for weight of blackpowder), and column B is the weight of the shot in grains.

[crow]

Welcome to the forum.
I read your posts, some good info on ML loads.

IMHO in your first post in paragraph 4, (and anywhere else) where you mention powder charge amounts,  that you should specify what granulation of powder your recommending for that load. For example--- 80 grains of Swiss one F (F). There is a very large pressure difference between F and FFF.

And also what brand of powder your referencing, there is a pressure difference between Swiss and Goex. Also should specify black powder is by volume not grain weight. This info should be noted for safety reasons for people not familiar with blackpowder.

[novashooter]

Welcome to the forum.
I read your posts, some good info on ML loads.

IMHO in your first post in paragraph 4, (and anywhere else) where you mention powder charge amounts,  that you should specify what granulation of powder your recommending for that load. For example--- 80 grains of Swiss one F (F). There is a very large pressure difference between F and FFF.

And also what brand of powder your referencing, there is a pressure difference between Swiss and Goex. Also should specify black powder is by volume not grain weight. This info should be noted for safety reasons for people not familiar with blackpowder.

I hope this doesn't come across the wrong way, but you are incorrect on most of that. I do specify what granulation of powder I am using, and I say exactly why I use it over others. I also say what brand I'm using, although I probably could go into detail on the different brands and what I've seen. Now that you say that, I probably should to save some people some time and money.

Blackpowder does NOT need to be measured by volume. That is ONLY the substitutes such as Pyrodex or 777 or others. 80 grains of Blackpowder is the same from a measure or scale. If your measure is way off from that, it's your measures fault. You are perfectly fine weighing all your blackpowder charges, but again, this is ONLY blackpowder, NOT SUBSTITUES.

There is some, basically insignificant difference in pressure between the different grades and brands of blackpowders, it is NOT A SAFETY ISSUE. My caps are not yelling, I only want people to see the important parts. You can not get more pressure from any blackpowder grain or brand that exceeds even low pressure smokeless loads. I have a Pressure Trace II system, I've seen other testing as well. I have yet to see a blackpowder shotshell produce over 6,000 PSI. It's not easy to get over 5,000 PSI. You simply can not hurt yourself with blackpowder in a shotshell, it is idiot proof.

Here is a link to a bunch of blackpowder pressure testing in 16, 12, and 10 gauge at the bottom. Click the links. You will notice almost no difference between the grades.

https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/blackpowder-shotshell-loading/361504

[novashooter]

I can't possibly cover every single blackpowder that has ever existed, I only know what exists right now. Currently in the USA it's easiest to get Goex and Swiss brands, although Schuetzen (AKA Wano) is not hard to find, espeically if you order it. Locally it can sometimes be hard to find blackpowder, often it's found in muzzleloader shops, but not always in reloading stores. You will almost never find it at a Walmart or Cabelas or Runnings or anything like that. It is not as hard as you would think to find if you want to though. I assume Swiss has the same, but Goex has a dealer locator. They might not be 5 minutes down the street, but surely there is a black powder dealer somewhere near you unless you are in nowhere Alaska or something. A really good way to get it is if you have a reenactment or rendezvous near you, there is almost always someone selling powder there. If you really don't want to go through the trouble of driving somewhere to buy it, you can order blackpowder online just like you can smokeless. The hazmat fee and shipping is the same, you can even buy smokeless and blackpowder at the same time. The best prices come from buying 10 pounds minimum, 25 is better, however, I would strongly encourage people to buy 1 lb at a time to start. I think Powder Inc will ship 5 pounds, where you can mix and match different powders to add up to 5 pounds. There's lots of options online.

I have shot both Goex and Swiss brands. I have never shot Schuetzen, both Swiss and Schuetzen are imported by the same company, however, they are two completeley different brands, made by different companies. Schuetzen is made in Germany, Swiss is obviously made in Switzerland. Goex is made in the USA, just got a new owner and is now shipping powder again. Swiss only has one kind of powder in a bunch of different grain sizes. The most common are going to be 1Fg, 1.5Fg, 2Fg, 3Fg, and 4Fg. You will also often hear about Null B, which is mainly used only as priming powder for a flintlock, not a main charge powder. Goex is offered in 3 versions. Regular red can Goex, Olde Eynsford, and Reenactor grade. Regular Goex is good stuff, nothing wrong with it, but it does have a little more fouling and less velocity than Olde Eynsford or Swiss of the same grades. Olde Eynsford is top shelf stuff, the same as Swiss. Both are often used in BPCR which is long range rifle shooting to good effect. Reenactor grade is the poor quality stuff. It's pretty much only good for blanks used in reenactments. It isn't graded like other blackpowders, and it's only purpose is to make smoke and boom. There are fireworks blackpowders, but I don't know anything about those.

When it comes to grades most shooting blackpowder will be 1Fg, 1.5Fg, 2Fg, 3Fg, and 4Fg. Null B as I said earlier is very fine powder, not for a main charge, only as a flintlock prime. Often those grades will also be written as Fg, FFg, FFFg, and FFFFg. Those grades are the grain sizes of the powder, however, there is no industry standard. This is a very important aspect, as it can vary widely. If you compare a Goex 2Fg to a Swiss 2Fg, you will notice they are not the same size grain at all. This is even more apparent in 1Fg. Swiss powder is a finer powder than Goex. 2Fg Swiss is more comparable to a 3Fg Goex. This does not make one powder better than the other, only that they are different. At least within a brand, the larger the number (or more F's) the smaller the powder grain size. The question then is why the different grades? The different grades to have different burn characteristics, even though their peak pressures really do not vary that much. Black powder does not behave like smokeless, a 4Fg is not some crazy fast powder like Bullseye, and 1Fg is not slow like an IMR 4350. You can't say 90 grains of 1Fg is safe, and 90 grains of 4Fg in the same load is going to be dangerous, because it isn't true. I have done velocity testing, and in general, the finer the grade, the higher the velocity you will get at the same powder charge. As stated earlier, you can weigh or volume measure blackpowder, it makes no difference. So why not use the finest grade possible since it has the highest velocity? The answer is accuracy, consistency, or in our case shot patterns. BPCR (black powder cartridge rifle) shooters almost all use 1.5Fg or 1Fg, a rare few might use 2Fg. Those are the grades that give them the best accuracy possible for long range rifle shooting of big heavy bullets. In the muzzleloading rifle world, you will mostly see 2Fg or 3Fg, although some do use 1Fg, and even 4Fg. Again, you have to understand what brand of powder a certain person is using when they talk grades, especially if you talk to someone outside the USA. In shotguns you will see lots of people shooting 1Fg, 2Fg, and 3Fg. Not many shoot 4Fg, and 1.5Fg really only exists for picky (or indecisive) BPCR shooters, although it would work great in shotguns too.

All that might sound muddy because it is. There is no hard and fast rule on what grade of powder you should be shooting. My suggestions based only on my own experiences is that 1Fg is ideal for shotgun patterns. Lots and lots of people are very happy with 2Fg. Try 3Fg if you want, but I don't think many people get their best patterns with it. I don't shoot BPCR, so I have not suggestions there, only that a lot of people who actually do good shoot 1Fg or 1.5Fg. Once in a while you hear about someone doing great with 3Fg Swiss (finer than 3Fg Goex) too, so there's always outliers. With muzzleloading rifles shooting things like round balls or shorter conicals, I do really good with 1Fg, although I think most people shoot 2Fg or 3Fg with good results. In flintlocks, using 3Fg as both your main and prime charge is common, although both 1Fg and 2Fg work fine as prime too. There is a lot of folklore with blackpowder that doesn't really hold water when scientifically tested, and flintlock prime is a lot of those folklore. For me, the best usage of 3Fg is in a smaller cartridge, usually handguns. In a 45 colt, I would choose 3Fg to get the most velocity from it as I could. I would do the same for a cap and ball revolver. You can certainly use 4Fg in pistols, however, there really isn't any velocity to be gained over 3Fg. I do not like 4Fg for priming powder either since it is so fine, it will pick up humidity when hunting and can cause misfires. Those problems really don't exist with 3Fg or coarser (within reason), and you do not loose any detectable ignition speed by doing so. There are some other considerations, such as powder fouling, although it's harder to quantify than you would think. Powder fouling can vary from day to day just from weather changes. You would think smaller charges of powder would foul less since there is less material fired (such as a fine grade powder), however, often it is offset by being a harder or crustier fouling that doesn't swab as easily, or doesn't respond as well to patch or bullet lube.

When it comes to the two main brands, Swiss is often considered the best, and while it's great stuff, Goex makes just as good of a powder with Olde Eynsford. Espeically for shotguns which really aren't that demanding, either brand is fine. Swiss does tend to have finer powder (their 1Fg is similar to a Goex 2Fg) the performance is similar. I still have and shoot regular Goex, if I were to make a suggestion to new shooters, just spend the little extra on Olde Eynsford, there's no downsides I can find. It's a better made, better screened, better quality powder, which is why it cost more. Swiss is just Swiss, and if you can get it, it's good stuff. If your store only has red can Goex and nothing else, go ahead and buy it, it is still very effective powder.

[novashooter]

I suppose I could cover some safety things, but there's not much to say, most of them are myths.

The most important thing is to understand what blackpowder is, and what is not blackpowder. Pyrodex is not blackpowder. 777 is not Blackpowder, Blackhorn 209 is not blackpowder. Blackpowder is saltpeter, sulfur, and charcoal, nothing more, nothing less.

I say that because some might mistakenly buy a substitute, measure it by weight, and have issues. You still will not have enough room in a shotshell to hurt yourself with a substitute though. The most important thing to take away from this though is that muzzleloading powder measures are all made and calibrated for real blackpowder. You can take a powder measure, set it to 80 grains, fill it with blackpowder, dump it on a scale, and it will be very close to 80 grains. This is not the case for any substitute. SUBSTITUTE POWDERS ARE ONLY A SUBSTITUTE BY VOLUME, NOT WEIGHT.

Blackpowder is not pressure sensitive. You can not ignite it by compressing it. It can not be ignited by static electricity. Those are two common myths that have zero truth. Another big one is that blackpowder can not have an air gap, which is not true in the safety sense, but it sometimes doesn't provide the best performance. It is safe to load brass cartridges (not shotshells) with an airgap, you do not need fillers, although fillers, or just filling the case will usually perform better. Barrel obstructions are a different deal such as short starting a muzzleloader. Those are no good with any powder.

The biggest danger with blackpowder is open flame. This should be pretty dang obvious, but you would be surprised how lax people get. Blackpowder ignites very easily from flame, which is what makes it great, but even a spark ignites it. That's why it will work in flintlocks. I've seen a couple of times people either leaving an open can of powder on a bench with a fire burning a little ways away, or even worse, and open can of powder while they are shooting. These are not issues you should have shooting shotshells, but they are common for muzzleloaders. The best thing is to keep your powder in a horn or flask at your side, not in a can when shooting.

Along with that same thinking, blackpowder does not explode in open air. It's not an explosive unless compressed like most things. That said it does burn a lot faster than smokeless powder does in open air, and it can cause burns. Its fine to store powder at home in a cabinet, but don't have a bunch of pounds of powder on your shooting bench. 1 pound going up in a flash is bad enough, you don't need it to be 3-4 pounds. This can apply to shotshells, as you will be dealing with primers. You don't want a primer popping turn into a big fireball. As long as your powder is either in a powder measure, flask, horn or something like that, it should be fine. I do load from an open can, but I prime first, then load powder.

As far as safety for chamber pressure, there is no way of making an unsafe shotshell. You could load 120 grains of 4Fg powder and however much shot will fit, and it will be safe. Will it perform good? I really doubt it. I'm not aware of any way to overload any cartridge at all with blackpowder. Since muzzleloaders essentially have infinite space it might be possible, just don't be dumb. There are guidelines on safe maximums for each caliber or gauge, but those are often very conservative. Recoil is usually the limiting factor.

[Yoder409]

Some very good and enlightening info, Nova.   

[crow]

Welcome to the forum.
I read your posts, some good info on ML loads.

IMHO in your first post in paragraph 4, (and anywhere else) where you mention powder charge amounts,  that you should specify what granulation of powder your recommending for that load. For example--- 80 grains of Swiss one F (F). There is a very large pressure difference between F and FFF.

And also what brand of powder your referencing, there is a pressure difference between Swiss and Goex. Also should specify black powder is by volume not grain weight. This info should be noted for safety reasons for people not familiar with blackpowder.

I hope this doesn't come across the wrong way, but you are incorrect on most of that. I do specify what granulation of powder I am using, and I say exactly why I use it over others. I also say what brand I'm using, although I probably could go into detail on the different brands and what I've seen. Now that you say that, I probably should to save some people some time and money.

Blackpowder does NOT need to be measured by volume. That is ONLY the substitutes such as Pyrodex or 777 or others. 80 grains of Blackpowder is the same from a measure or scale. If your measure is way off from that, it's your measures fault. You are perfectly fine weighing all your blackpowder charges, but again, this is ONLY blackpowder, NOT SUBSTITUES.

There is some, basically insignificant difference in pressure between the different grades and brands of blackpowders, it is NOT A SAFETY ISSUE. My caps are not yelling, I only want people to see the important parts. You can not get more pressure from any blackpowder grain or brand that exceeds even low pressure smokeless loads. I have a Pressure Trace II system, I've seen other testing as well. I have yet to see a blackpowder shotshell produce over 6,000 PSI. It's not easy to get over 5,000 PSI. You simply can not hurt yourself with blackpowder in a shotshell, it is idiot proof.

Here is a link to a bunch of blackpowder pressure testing in 16, 12, and 10 gauge at the bottom. Click the links. You will notice almost no difference between the grades.

https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/blackpowder-shotshell-loading/361504

Well no, I'm nor wrong.


You have written a lot of content, some people are going to skim over it. Again in your first post paragraph 4, you are not saying what granulation is in your powder charge, partial load info is not good, especially for someone new to the sport. Paragraph 4 of yours is addressing muzzleloaders, which is what Im responding to, not BP shotshell guns.

In your later post you are saying 4F is okay as a main powder charge for rifle or shotgun, because of pressure it is not okay, and irresponsible on your part.
You say 90 grains of 4F is fine as a main powder charge, this is also irresponsible on your part. There is no black powder club or shooting match that would let you stand next to people and shoot if it was known that was your load.

Last month a guy showed up with a piece of junk made in India 10 gauge, no-one who knows better wants to be near that gun going off with 90 grains of 4F.


This is my last post on this thread, I stand behind what I wrote and not interested in getting into a back and forth on this, it's turkey season.

[novashooter]

Welcome to the forum.
I read your posts, some good info on ML loads.

IMHO in your first post in paragraph 4, (and anywhere else) where you mention powder charge amounts,  that you should specify what granulation of powder your recommending for that load. For example--- 80 grains of Swiss one F (F). There is a very large pressure difference between F and FFF.

And also what brand of powder your referencing, there is a pressure difference between Swiss and Goex. Also should specify black powder is by volume not grain weight. This info should be noted for safety reasons for people not familiar with blackpowder.

I hope this doesn't come across the wrong way, but you are incorrect on most of that. I do specify what granulation of powder I am using, and I say exactly why I use it over others. I also say what brand I'm using, although I probably could go into detail on the different brands and what I've seen. Now that you say that, I probably should to save some people some time and money.

Blackpowder does NOT need to be measured by volume. That is ONLY the substitutes such as Pyrodex or 777 or others. 80 grains of Blackpowder is the same from a measure or scale. If your measure is way off from that, it's your measures fault. You are perfectly fine weighing all your blackpowder charges, but again, this is ONLY blackpowder, NOT SUBSTITUES.

There is some, basically insignificant difference in pressure between the different grades and brands of blackpowders, it is NOT A SAFETY ISSUE. My caps are not yelling, I only want people to see the important parts. You can not get more pressure from any blackpowder grain or brand that exceeds even low pressure smokeless loads. I have a Pressure Trace II system, I've seen other testing as well. I have yet to see a blackpowder shotshell produce over 6,000 PSI. It's not easy to get over 5,000 PSI. You simply can not hurt yourself with blackpowder in a shotshell, it is idiot proof.

Here is a link to a bunch of blackpowder pressure testing in 16, 12, and 10 gauge at the bottom. Click the links. You will notice almost no difference between the grades.

https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/blackpowder-shotshell-loading/361504

Well no, I'm nor wrong.


You have written a lot of content, some people are going to skim over it. Again in your first post paragraph 4, you are not saying what granulation is in your powder charge, partial load info is not good, especially for someone new to the sport. Paragraph 4 of yours is addressing muzzleloaders, which is what Im responding to, not BP shotshell guns.

In your later post you are saying 4F is okay as a main powder charge for rifle or shotgun, because of pressure it is not okay, and irresponsible on your part.
You say 90 grains of 4F is fine as a main powder charge, this is also irresponsible on your part. There is no black powder club or shooting match that would let you stand next to people and shoot if it was known that was your load.

Last month a guy showed up with a piece of junk made in India 10 gauge, no-one who knows better wants to be near that gun going off with 90 grains of 4F.


This is my last post on this thread, I stand behind what I wrote and not interested in getting into a back and forth on this, it's turkey season.

It's not really a matter of back and forth. The science is the science. 4Fg is perfectly safe as a main charge, it does not raise peak pressures to a dangerous amount, if at all. You can find this info in the Lyman blackpowder handbook. Larry Gibson has also done independent testing on at least two calibers, although I do not think he has ever tested shotshells. You have no basis to your claims. Please back up your claims with real sources. I have provided a link to shotshell pressure data with multiple grades of powders, listed a source that most people can buy easily, and listed a person who you can find their testing easily online.

[Ihuntoldschool]

Yeah. BB isn't legal in the Spring so that'd be your reason not to shoot that. (Nothing bigger than #2 fine shot) .  You could load 2 for the body or 3 (preferred) if you can find it. I think you nailed it on size 6 for the head shots inside 40. 

You can always jug choke to add a little constriction too.

[novashooter]

Yeah. BB isn't legal in the Spring so that'd be your reason not to shoot that. (Nothing bigger than #2 fine shot) .  You could load 2 for the body or 3 (preferred) if you can find it. I think you nailed it on size 6 for the head shots inside 40. 

You can always jug choke to add a little constriction too.

That is entirely up to your local regulations. I know a lot of states don't allow over a certain shot size, but a lot do not. Here in South Dakota, there is not much of a shot restriction. It just says "no buckshot", presumably 4 buck and larger. BB is perfectly legal here. It's really odd too, because slugs are legal for turkeys, as are handguns. Just no rifles, centerfire or rimfire. I'd have to double check, but I think air rifles are allowed if they hit a certain energy or velocity. Presumably a guy could take a rifled slug gun and Remington Accutips and shoot a turkey here. Kinda odd buckshot isn't legal, not that I would ever use it or recommend it. I can't imagine shooting a turkey with a 1 oz Remington Slugger either. I would like to get one with the revolver though.